Hello from another newbie

[MajGenl.Meade]

Greetings. My (real) name is Peter and I live in Bloemfontein, South Africa - so we're just warming up as you are getting cold! Potted: born England, resided 27 years; moved to USA, resided 30 years Twinsburg OH; move to SA four years ago. Former Member Cleveland CWRT and NE Ohio CWRT, Meade Society. For personal pleasure, (a) write the Secret Life and Letters of General George Gordon Meade (found on the CCWRT website; a couple have to do with Lincoln) and (b) am 80,000 words into the missing "Flashman" novel. The Lincoln Discussion Symposium has already helped with that personal project. My hero, GGMeade was of course Lincoln's favourite and most successful General ..... As he Secretly wrote:

Quote:Have you ever thought that since the first week after Gettysburg, now more than a year, I have never been alluded to in public journals except to abuse and vilify me? And why this is I have never been able to imagine. Grant and Sherman are puffed up in periodicals, but it cannot be argued that either of them has achieved success against a foe remotely comparable to Lee. No other commander has so mauled and baffled the famous Lee, a task which my army continues even now, with Grant taking all the credit of course.

Who after all is Beauregard, and what are Pemberton and Bragg? True, Grant has a certain plodding tenacity and a disregard for withdrawal and defeat. Such words, along with temperance and grace, are not within his lexicon. As for Sherman, he is opposed by a man indelicately referred to by some as “Slow Joe”, against whom I venture even Butler would shine. Were it not for an accident at Pittsburgh Landing, which removed the adequate rebel General A. S. Johnston at the very moment he was sweeping them both from the field, our two lions would today be roaring even further to the west, escorting government incompetents to defraud the Indian tribes.

Whatever is said today, you can be sure that time and history will vindicate my reputation. Future generations will debate the facts of our various campaigns with dispassion. They cannot fail to acknowledge that Grant and Sherman, measured against lesser foes, are not at all of the same quality as the victor at Gettysburg. Indeed, if Lee is lauded as the finest general of the Confederacy, and yet it is my army that drives his to its death, then there is only one candidate for recognition as the preeminent commander of this entire rebellion.

And er..... that's it. Thanks for putting up with it.

[RJNorton]

Welcome, Peter! We are glad you joined! The forum now has 5 continents represented - in addition to the USA we have members living in Germany, the UK, Canada, Brazil, China, and now South Africa. If I left a country out I apologize!

[brtmchl]

Welcome Peter. I did enjoy your post and must admit that aside from commanding the field at Gettysburg, I know little about Meade. Was he an arrogant man? Or did he just feel jaded after being passed over for Grant? Especially in light of his success at Gettysburg. I will definitely read up more about him now. Hancock, Chamberlain and Sickles are always the ones who come to mind when thinking about the battle. Thanks again Peter.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Thank you both. I don't think Meade was arrogant; he is peevish, the old snapping turtle, perhaps insensitive, and with a highly developed sense of what is right - i.e. yes, he was very conscious of what he thought he was owed by rights, even if he thought he didn't have the ability. He thought far more highly of Grant than I allow him to and tended to blame others for inflating Grant beyond what was "right". Grant annoyed him by promoting others - who though deserving should not have received the honour before him. He was the man who almost won Fredericksburg, let down by pusillanimous superiors. Lincoln cannot have "liked" him as he did Grant - too much the patrician. He never (IMO) forgave Lincoln for having Halleck criticise his deliberate follow-up at Gettysburg rather than smashing Lee when the chance was there. I don't know much about Lincoln's relationship with Meade - almost none, I imagine - but unlike McDowell, McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker, he was neither fired, removed nor resigned for reasons of failure. Lincoln stuck with him, and that's worth a lot.

[Rob Wick]

Quote:I don't know much about Lincoln's relationship with Meade - almost none, I imagine - but unlike McDowell, McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker, he was neither fired, removed nor resigned for reasons of failure. Lincoln stuck with him, and that's worth a lot.

Peter,

Welcome to the group.

I wonder how much of your point has to do with Meade's usefulness to Lincoln as opposed to Lincoln's relief that in Grant he finally found a general who was willing to fight until the bitter end. I've always believed that had Grant not been put at the head of the Union armies, Meade likely would have eventually been fired like the others. It seems to me Meade was lucky that Lincoln didn't fire him after Gettysburg. Whether that firing would have been justified or not is arguable, but Lincoln's frustration with Meade was palpable.

Again, welcome to the board.

Best
Rob

[Eva Elisabeth]

Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

[brtmchl]

(10-29-2013 07:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

Eva,

Headquarters Army of the Potomac
June 21, 1864

To Mrs. George G. Meade

My last letter was written on the 17th, during the battle, which lasted off and on from 4 o'clock on the afternoon of the 16th to dark of the 18th, day and night. Hearing of this struggle, Mr. Lincoln honored the army with his presence outside Petersburg this afternoon, and was so gracious as to say he had seen you in Philadelphia at the Sanitary Fair on the 16th, etc., etc. Mr. Lincoln brought with him the Monday edition of the New York Times with news of the Fair, and the sword contest vote thus far. My total votes are 2,419 with Hancock at 1,402. Sadly, Grant has only 130 votes and even McClellan has more.
http://clevelandcivilwarroundtable.com/a.../meade.htm
It's a very nice webpage Peter.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a personal letter to his wife. The remaining portion of the letter goes on to say that Meade saw a portion of the President's speech and made some comments to Grant. Grant in turn telegraphed these statements to Lincoln, taking credit. Grant claims that he gave full credit to Meade, but the telegraph operator made the mistake.

[LincolnMan]

Nice work Peter- and welcome to the Forum.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Oh dear - I'm so sorry - you are quoting one of the Meade letters that I made up! The Bold parts below are genuine Meade on that date. The sword voting numbers come from another letter, and the telegrapher mixup was my own creation, reading:

I have seen a report of the President’s speech at the Fair in which he mistakenly quotes Grant as saying he will fight on this line if it takes all summer. You may be unsurprised to learn that it was I, and not Grant, who first gave such determined voice to this martial strategy. It appears that Grant sent it by telegraph to Washington, with full credit to me, not himself, intending the President should use it in his speech at the Fair to honor Philadelphia’s greatest warrior son.

Grant gives it as his belief that the telegrapher confused the morse signal for Meade with that for Grant, M E being dash dash, then dot whereas the G is dash dash dot, etc. He will take care soon to correct the record for the sake of history, by which assurance I am most gratified.

(10-29-2013 09:25 AM)brtmchl Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 07:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

Eva,

Headquarters Army of the Potomac
June 21, 1864

To Mrs. George G. Meade

My last letter was written on the 17th, during the battle, which lasted off and on from 4 o'clock on the afternoon of the 16th to dark of the 18th, day and night. Hearing of this struggle, Mr. Lincoln honored the army with his presence outside Petersburg this afternoon, and was so gracious as to say he had seen you in Philadelphia

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a personal letter to his wife. The remaining portion of the letter goes on to say that Meade saw a portion of the President's speech and made some comments to Grant. Grant in turn telegraphed these statements to Lincoln, taking credit. Grant claims that he gave full credit to Meade, but the telegraph operator made the mistake.

---

(10-29-2013 07:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

Hello Eva

Aside from June 21 1864, Meade and Lincoln met at least three other times

April 1863 he was part of a dinner that included: The President and Mrs. Lincoln, Mr. Bates, Secretary of the Interior, a Dr. Henry, of Colorado, who accompanied the President, Mrs. Stoneman, wife of Major General Stoneman, besides the corps commanders and felt highly pleased that Lincoln made a point to visit his camp the next day

Sept 8 1864 in Washington City he spent 30 mins with Lincoln and 4 hours with Stanton “Both were very affable, apparently very glad to see me, and said many flattering things”

March 26, 1865 he escorted Lincoln on a tour of the front line "Mrs. Lincoln spoke very handsomely of you and referred in feeling terms to our sad bereavement. The President also spoke of you, and expressed regret that your visit should have been so abruptly terminated"

After Grant arrived, it was rather his place to meet the President than Meade's.

Cheers
Peter

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(10-29-2013 06:49 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  I've always believed that had Grant not been put at the head of the Union armies, Meade likely would have eventually been fired like the others. It seems to me Meade was lucky that Lincoln didn't fire him after Gettysburg. Whether that firing would have been justified or not is arguable, but Lincoln's frustration with Meade was palpable.

Thanks Rob. Agreed on Lincoln's frustration! You theorise that Halleck would have done the firing on Lincoln's behalf at some point thereafter? Mind you, he survived Mine Run (where his plan was good but the execution by the corps commanders was atrocious)....

Grant was, as you say, the overall commander of Union armies under Lincoln and he chose to move with the Army of the Potomac. He in fact had the opportunity to replace the AOP commander and put in one of his favourites - he declined to do so and Meade stayed. So from that perspective, perhaps you are correct indeed.

Cheers
Peter

[Eva Elisabeth]

Mike and Peter - thanks to both of you. Is it a very stupid question to ask what that sword contest (vote) was?

[irshgrl500]

[quote='MajGenl.Meade' pid='25866' dateline='1382943447']
Greetings. My (real) name is Peter and I live in Bloemfontein, South Africa - so we're just warming up as you are getting cold!

Hello Peter,
Welcome!

[brtmchl]

(10-30-2013 06:03 AM)MajGenl.Meade Wrote:  Oh dear - I'm so sorry - you are quoting one of the Meade letters that I made up! The Bold parts below are genuine Meade on that date. The sword voting numbers come from another letter, and the telegrapher mixup was my own creation, reading:

I have seen a report of the President’s speech at the Fair in which he mistakenly quotes Grant as saying he will fight on this line if it takes all summer. You may be unsurprised to learn that it was I, and not Grant, who first gave such determined voice to this martial strategy. It appears that Grant sent it by telegraph to Washington, with full credit to me, not himself, intending the President should use it in his speech at the Fair to honor Philadelphia’s greatest warrior son.

Grant gives it as his belief that the telegrapher confused the morse signal for Meade with that for Grant, M E being dash dash, then dot whereas the G is dash dash dot, etc. He will take care soon to correct the record for the sake of history, by which assurance I am most gratified.

(10-29-2013 09:25 AM)brtmchl Wrote:  

(10-29-2013 07:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

Eva,

Headquarters Army of the Potomac
June 21, 1864

To Mrs. George G. Meade

My last letter was written on the 17th, during the battle, which lasted off and on from 4 o'clock on the afternoon of the 16th to dark of the 18th, day and night. Hearing of this struggle, Mr. Lincoln honored the army with his presence outside Petersburg this afternoon, and was so gracious as to say he had seen you in Philadelphia

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a personal letter to his wife. The remaining portion of the letter goes on to say that Meade saw a portion of the President's speech and made some comments to Grant. Grant in turn telegraphed these statements to Lincoln, taking credit. Grant claims that he gave full credit to Meade, but the telegraph operator made the mistake.

---

(10-29-2013 07:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Hi Peter, do you (or someone else) know if Gen. Meade ever met A. Lincoln personally?

Hello Eva

Aside from June 21 1864, Meade and Lincoln met at least three other times

April 1863 he was part of a dinner that included: The President and Mrs. Lincoln, Mr. Bates, Secretary of the Interior, a Dr. Henry, of Colorado, who accompanied the President, Mrs. Stoneman, wife of Major General Stoneman, besides the corps commanders and felt highly pleased that Lincoln made a point to visit his camp the next day

Sept 8 1864 in Washington City he spent 30 mins with Lincoln and 4 hours with Stanton “Both were very affable, apparently very glad to see me, and said many flattering things”

March 26, 1865 he escorted Lincoln on a tour of the front line "Mrs. Lincoln spoke very handsomely of you and referred in feeling terms to our sad bereavement. The President also spoke of you, and expressed regret that your visit should have been so abruptly terminated"

After Grant arrived, it was rather his place to meet the President than Meade's.

Cheers
Peter

---

(10-29-2013 06:49 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  I've always believed that had Grant not been put at the head of the Union armies, Meade likely would have eventually been fired like the others. It seems to me Meade was lucky that Lincoln didn't fire him after Gettysburg. Whether that firing would have been justified or not is arguable, but Lincoln's frustration with Meade was palpable.

Thanks Rob. Agreed on Lincoln's frustration! You theorise that Halleck would have done the firing on Lincoln's behalf at some point thereafter? Mind you, he survived Mine Run (where his plan was good but the execution by the corps commanders was atrocious)....

Grant was, as you say, the overall commander of Union armies under Lincoln and he chose to move with the Army of the Potomac. He in fact had the opportunity to replace the AOP commander and put in one of his favourites - he declined to do so and Meade stayed. So from that perspective, perhaps you are correct indeed.

Cheers
Peter

---

Peter, I didn't realize that the site I was on was yours. I liked it very much. I love reading the memoirs and letters from the actual people. It gives a whole different perspective. I read many letters and plan on returning to read more. You have given me a new perspective on Meade.
There was one letter I found particularly funny and also sad. It was after the war and Meade and Grant were at the White House I believe, ( this was during Reconstruction ) a clerk of Grants was absent and Grant asked Meade to wait as he went into his office. Former General Lee walks in and Meade goes to greet him with his hand extended. Lee, who once said,"Meade, in my judgement, had the greatest ability. I feared him more than any man I ever met upon the field of battle" mistook Meade as the clerk who should have been there and simply handed Meade his hat.

[MajGenl.Meade]

(10-30-2013 08:32 AM)brtmchl Wrote:  Peter, I didn't realize that the site I was on was yours. I liked it very much. I love reading the memoirs and letters from the actual people. It gives a whole different perspective. I read many letters and plan on returning to read more. You have given me a new perspective on Meade.
There was one letter I found particularly funny and also sad

I appreciate your appreciation! I'm anxious to clarify that my Meade Monologues (as I call them) are totally fictitious. So in that post-war meeting with Grant, the true parts are that Lee and Grant met. The false part is that Meade was there at all. You can read Meade's real letters on-line at several places - one is https://archive.org/details/lifelettersofgeo01mead. That's vol 1. To get vol 2 just change the end to geo02mead

Mostly, each Monologue dealt with the subject of that month's talk at the Civil War Roundtable. On their website you'll also find an article I wrote about Meade in Dec 1861 and one about a Confederate from the CSS Alabama who died and was buried near Cape Town, SA. Those are supposed to be factual

Cheers
Peter

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(10-30-2013 08:07 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Mike and Peter - thanks to both of you. Is it a very stupid question to ask what that sword contest (vote) was?

It certainly is not! Please read the full results here http://www.nytimes.com/1864/07/01/news/p...meade.html

At various Sanitary Fairs, one of the fund-raisers involved the donation of various gifts (swords, harness, vases, pistols etc). People could then pay $1 to vote for who should get each gift. The more $$$ you paid, the more votes you could cast.

Meade won the sword but the winners of the other items (in the NY Times link) make interesting reading. Note Lincoln's vote total in one particular category!

Regards
Peter

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thanks Peter, that was indeed an interesting read. So, A. Lincoln barely missed getting a silver vase...It often amazes me that these old articles sound pretty fresh and modern - compared to German newspaper articles of those days, which were written in a rather ancient style of speech and spelling (like Shakespearean English compared to nowadays).