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Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2013 10:22 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."

It was a contemporary who said this. Can a statement by a contemporary be considered unhistorical? It is what Albert S. Edwards surely told from his very personal point of view, but still witnessed as a contemporate. Also, the statement wasn't "Mary made Lincoln President" but "she had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln President than many people think". This is absolutely not identical! I agree on all the factors you listed having their share in A. Lincoln's election. But Mary also backed him and wasn't passive, I think she pushed him additionally (especially emotionally) to his personal striving. This strong private support was another share in his success, I think, since he was not by many expected turning out to be the winner. And IMO he acknowledged this when after getting the news of being elected he ran home allegedly* shouting:"Mary, Mary, WE are elected!"

Hasn't the proverb "Behind every great man there's a great woman" often proven to contain a grain of truth? Even if it's just the private and emotional support she provided?

*I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.
One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.

Was this foreseeable at the time Mary married him? Or even after his single term in Congress when he mainly practised law for a long time?
The point of the argument above was what Mary gave up at the time she decided for marrying A. Lincoln. Could she have expected he could ever offer her the standard of life she had been used to? And if - when? There were much more prosperous candidates, like Stephen Douglass, who courted Mary.
Mary might have believed in A. Lincolns qualities and future, but she got at that time not much support for her decision from her family, just the opposite.

Yes, very, very much later, they came and begged.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2013 08:42 AM by Gene C.)

Mike, you make some interesting and good points, but...I think Eva makes some excellent points regarding the influence and importance Mary had in Abraham's political life.

Perhaps Mary was angry enough to throw something at Abraham, but didn't really want it to hit him or cause an injury?

Mike B. · 12-14-2013, 08:48 AM

(12-14-2013 08:37 AM)Gene C Wrote: Mike, you make some interesting and good points, but...I think Eva makes some excellent points regarding the influence and importance Mary had in Abraham's political life.

Perhaps Mary was angry enough to throw something at Abraham, but didn't really want it to hit him or cause an injury?

Gene,
Thanks.
If you have a copy of the book I co-edited, "Mary Lincoln Enigma" I write a chapter explaining why I think that political influence on his career is largely mythical or to be more precise very minimal.

RJNorton · 12-14-2013, 08:49 AM

(12-14-2013 08:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: *I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

Eva, I found the quote on p. 311 of Michael Burlingame's The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln.

The source given is "Recollections of Henry C. Bowen" in Abraham Lincoln: Tributes from his Associates: Reminisces of Soldiers, Statesmen, and Citizens, edited by William Hayes Ward (New York, Thomas J. Crowell, 1895), p. 32.

So it was reported in 1895, but I don't know if that were (was?) the first. ("Was" sounds better to my ears, but I think "were" might be correct)

I checked Bowen's recollections, and he reported that in a conversation Lincoln told him:

"Before going to the Club that evening to get the election news as it came in, he said: "I told my wife to go to bed, as probably I should not be back before midnight. When at about twelve o'clock the news came informing me of my election I said: ' Boys, I think I will go home now; for there is a little woman there who would like to hear the news.' The Club gave me three rousing cheers, and then I left. On my arrival I went to my bedroom and found my wife sound asleep. I gently touched her shoulder and said, ' Mary '; she made no answer. I spoke again, a little louder, saying, ' Mary, Mary! we are elected!"

The Fehrenbachers write a little about the Bowen-Lincoln conversation in their book, and they give Bowen's recollection a grade of "D." Bowen reported the conversation took place at the Soldiers' Home in March 1861, but I don't think the Lincolns stayed there until 1862.

Gene C · 12-14-2013, 08:54 AM

Mike, that book is on my wish list. I was unaware that you co-edited that chapter. Another good reason I need to get that book.

Mike B. · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2013 09:14 AM by Mike B..)

(12-14-2013 08:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."
It was a contemporate who said this. Can a statement by a contemporate be considered unhistorical? It is what Albert S. Edwards surely told from his very personal point of view, but still witnessed as a contemporate. Also, the statement wasn't "Mary made Lincoln President" but "she had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln President than many people think". This is absolutely not identical! I agree on all the factors you listed having their share in A. Lincoln's election. But Mary also backed him and wasn't passive, I think she pushed him additionally (especially emotionally) to his personal striving. This strong private support was another share in his success, I think, since he was not by many expected turning out to be the winner. And IMO he acknowledged this when after getting the news of being elected he ran home allegedly* shouting:"Mary, Mary, WE are elected!"

Hasn't the proverb "Behind every great man there's a great woman" often proven to contain a grain of truth? Even if it's just the private and emotional support she provided?

*I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.
One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.
Was this foreseeable at the time Mary married him? Or even after his single term in Congress when he mainly practised law for a long time?
The point of the argument above was what Mary gave up at the time she decided for marrying A. Lincoln. Could she have expected he could ever offer her the standard of life she had been used to? And if - when? There were much more prosperous candidates, like Stephen Douglass, who courted Mary.
Mary might have believed in A. Lincolns qualities and future, but she got at that time not much support for her decision from her family, just the opposite.

Yes, very, very much later, they came and begged.

You are right, I should have said opinion not unhistorical. I do answer many your points including the idea that she spurred his ambition (It was already there). in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma." co-edited by me and Frank Williams. Remember Mary at the time in one of her letters belittle "female politicians." Also, the "Mary we are elected." is much more likely to simply mean the family or just a throwaway line. It is too little a reed to put that much interpretative significance. Again, I ask for real hard evidence where she helped make him President. It is simply not there.

As far as the line behind about a great man having a great woman behind them, it is not a universal truth.

I can say it is beyond doubt true with Bill Clinton, FDR, and John Adams.
But is it true with Pope Francis or Albert Einstein who divorced his wife and then married his cousin because she wouldn't interfere with his work.

The same can be said opposite way.
The heroic Clara Barton who did so much and tremendous good, was never married and did what she did without a spouse.

(12-14-2013 08:37 AM)Gene C Wrote: Mike, you make some interesting and good points, but...I think Eva makes some excellent points regarding the influence and importance Mary had in Abraham's political life.

Perhaps Mary was angry enough to throw something at Abraham, but didn't really want it to hit him or cause an injury?

Gene, the difference in physical streangth between them would generally preclude that. However, he was hurt enough that he had go out and buy bandages from the blood. The question of Lincoln being hurt is somewhat besides the point. Was he hurt when she dumped a bucket of water on him from the second floor and locked him out of the house for being at a political meeting too late? No. But is that a reasonable thing to do. Could you see yourself doing this to your wife if you are married, if she was late? I am sure not.

I am not getting into the chasing with a knife incident because that is too controversial, right now.

(12-14-2013 08:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."
It was a contemporate who said this. Can a statement by a contemporate be considered unhistorical? It is what Albert S. Edwards surely told from his very personal point of view, but still witnessed as a contemporate. Also, the statement wasn't "Mary made Lincoln President" but "she had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln President than many people think". This is absolutely not identical! I agree on all the factors you listed having their share in A. Lincoln's election. But Mary also backed him and wasn't passive, I think she pushed him additionally (especially emotionally) to his personal striving. This strong private support was another share in his success, I think, since he was not by many expected turning out to be the winner. And IMO he acknowledged this when after getting the news of being elected he ran home allegedly* shouting:"Mary, Mary, WE are elected!"

Hasn't the proverb "Behind every great man there's a great woman" often proven to contain a grain of truth? Even if it's just the private and emotional support she provided?

*I would love to know who reported this quote first(-hand). It's in Jean Baker's M.L.-biography, and she refers to p.46 in W. Steven's "A reporter's Lincoln", but I can't find it on that page nor anywhere else in that book. Does anyone know?

(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.
One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.
Was this foreseeable at the time Mary married him? Or even after his single term in Congress when he mainly practised law for a long time?
The point of the argument above was what Mary gave up at the time she decided for marrying A. Lincoln. Could she have expected he could ever offer her the standard of life she had been used to? And if - when? There were much more prosperous candidates, like Stephen Douglass, who courted Mary.
Mary might have believed in A. Lincolns qualities and future, but she got at that time not much support for her decision from her family, just the opposite.

Yes, very, very much later, they came and begged.

Mary hurt Lincoln's career than in the short-term because by marrying her, he lost an almost certain Whig nomination to Congress in 1844, because he was now the "candidate of wealth, pride, and aristorcratic institution."

The standard of life line needs to be examined. Lots of people marry up or down as it were. By the time she married Lincoln, her options were to get married or become a "Spinster" with the Edwards. She couldn't go back to KY, because she hated her stepmother. So her options were somewhat limited. That is not due to her, that is due to the lack of opportunity given to 19th century women.
Plus, there is a internal contradiction in all this. If Mary was smart enough as the writing goes that she recognized his potential, how can we then say it wasn't clear at the time he would be successful?

Eva Elisabeth · 12-14-2013, 10:27 AM

Thanks, Roger!!
Mike, I have two or three points to reply to you, right now I'm a bit too busy to word them properly and look some things up. But I'll sure come back to this! (BTW, as it was a key word, I used a false expression. Contemporary would have been correct, sorry.)

Mike B. · (This post was last modified: 12-14-2013 11:17 AM by Mike B..)

Thanks Eva.
I know differences on Mary emotions run high.
I am not trying to pick fights. If you are not convinced by me, I am OK with that.
I am also aware of Mary's very positive qualities, she was without doubt very intelligent, well educated, witty, a good writer, and very muched loved her children and her husband. I am also convinced some of her faults lay with psychological problems beyond her control as per Dr. James Brust. I just think the evidence that she was a major reason he was President isn't very strong and consists mostly of some ex post facto opinions and some misunderstandings of Lincoln like from Edward Evertt.

(12-14-2013 08:54 AM)Gene C Wrote: Mike, that book is on my wish list. I was unaware that you co-edited that chapter. Another good reason I need to get that book.

Thanks Gene,
I co-edited the book with Frank Williams.
I wrote a chapter on that very point and would appreciate feedback from you.

irshgrl500 · 12-14-2013, 12:15 PM

[/quote]

Mary hurt Lincoln's career than in the short-term because by marrying her, he lost an almost certain Whig nomination to Congress in 1844, because he was now the "candidate of wealth, pride, and aristorcratic institution."
Mike, are you speaking of Lincoln's failure to get re-elected to Congress? In 1846, Lincoln was initially elected to Congress, and was the only Whig, in the Illinois delegation, when he was elected. During his initial and only term to Congress, Lincoln was VERY vocal on his position
on "Spot Resolutions". So vocal in fact, that it earned him the nick-name, "Spotty Lincoln". The power struggles of various issues between the Whigs & Democrats, were ongoing, and peaked at this time, and Lincoln's vocal demand of President Polk's declaration of a valid reason to war with Mexico. Polk supported the Annexing of Texas, claiming that spreading slavery was the underlying reason for his support, yet, when stating the reasons the US should be at war with Mexico, President Polk claimed that Mexico had "invaded" American territory (the actual facts were, General Taylor was in an territory, with US troops under President Polk's orders, which was territory claimed by BOTH the US & Mexico, and 11 Americans were killed. Hardly an "invasion" by Mexico.) Lincoln called President Polk "on the carpet", and joined the position of "Spot resolutions" not because Lincoln agreed or disagreed with the war between the US & Mexico, but because Lincoln, in reality saw that President Polk was dubious in his speech and positions, and reasons for his decisions. Lincoln was vocal about making President Polk accountable for his words, and because of the war, this wasn't a popular position to take, As a result, when Lincoln ran as a Whig for re-election to Congress, he lost. (he later regretted many of the statements he made about President Polk.) Lincoln losing the re-election to Congress, as a Whig, had NOTHING to do with his marriage to Mary Todd.[/u][/i]

Mike B. · 12-14-2013, 01:51 PM

Mary hurt Lincoln's career than in the short-term because by marrying her, he lost an almost certain Whig nomination to Congress in 1844, because he was now the "candidate of wealth, pride, and aristorcratic institution."
Mike, are you speaking of Lincoln's failure to get re-elected to Congress? In 1846, Lincoln was initially elected to Congress, and was the only Whig, in the Illinois delegation, when he was elected. During his initial and only term to Congress, Lincoln was VERY vocal on his position
on "Spot Resolutions". So vocal in fact, that it earned him the nick-name, "Spotty Lincoln". The power struggles of various issues between the Whigs & Democrats, were ongoing, and peaked at this time, and Lincoln's vocal demand of President Polk's declaration of a valid reason to war with Mexico. Polk supported the Annexing of Texas, claiming that spreading slavery was the underlying reason for his support, yet, when stating the reasons the US should be at war with Mexico, President Polk claimed that Mexico had "invaded" American territory (the actual facts were, General Taylor was in an territory, with US troops under President Polk's orders, which was territory claimed by BOTH the US & Mexico, and 11 Americans were killed. Hardly an "invasion" by Mexico.) Lincoln called President Polk "on the carpet", and joined the position of "Spot resolutions" not because Lincoln agreed or disagreed with the war between the US & Mexico, but because Lincoln, in reality saw that President Polk was dubious in his speech and positions, and reasons for his decisions. Lincoln was vocal about making President Polk accountable for his words, and because of the war, this wasn't a popular position to take, As a result, when Lincoln ran as a Whig for re-election to Congress, he lost. (he later regretted many of the statements he made about President Polk.) Lincoln losing the re-election to Congress, as a Whig, had NOTHING to do with his marriage to Mary Todd.[/u][/i]
[/quote]

No, you are speaking of something totally different. Lincoln did not run-for election. Stephen Logan was the Whig candidate. And Mark Neely makes a good challenge of your interpreatation. He shows most Lincoln had the median Whig position in his district. When Herndon complained, Lincoln wrote back saying that what he did was the only moral thing to do.
I am talking about the Whig nomination earlier BEFORE Lincoln went to Congress:

He lost the Whig nomination, he felt very much that marrying into the Edwards/Todd clan, he could no longer pose as the Old Abe or "humble Abraham Lincoln" that got him success in the past:

"To Martin S. Morris
Friend Morris: Springfield March 26th. 1843
Your letter of the 23rd. was received on yesterday morning, and for which (instead of an excuse which you thought proper to ask)

I tender you my sincere thanks. It is truly gratifying to me to learn that while the people of Sangamon have cast me off, my old friends of Menard who have known me longest and best of any, still retain there confidence in me. It would astonish if not amuse, the older citizens of your County who twelve years ago knew me a strange[r], friendless, uneducated, penniless boy, working on a flat boat---at ten dollars per month to learn that I have been put down here as the candidate of pride, wealth, and arristocratic family distinction. Yet so chiefly it was....

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 12-15-2013 03:46 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(12-14-2013 11:07 AM)Mike B. Wrote: I know differences on Mary emotions run high.
I am not trying to pick fights. If you are not convinced by me, I am OK with that.
I am also aware of Mary's very positive qualities, she was without doubt very intelligent, well educated, witty, a good writer, and very muched loved her children and her husband. I am also convinced some of her faults lay with psychological problems beyond her control as per Dr. James Brust. I just think the evidence that she was a major reason he was President isn't very strong and consists mostly of some ex post facto opinions and some misunderstandings of Lincoln like from Edward Evertt.

Mike, I totally agree on all this, especially on your introducing passage! Thanks for these words! Again, I didn't declare Mary's influence as a major reason A. Lincoln became president, but as a positive support and backing. Allow me - regarding the many different arguments - to remark that the question of the extent of Mary's possible share in her husband's rise to power makes a seperate discussion within the original discussion whether A. Lincoln regretted his marriage.

There is no evidence to prove the Lincolns' feelings towards each other and their marriage, only hints at which we can look this or that way and draw our personal conclusions (on a very private issue between two people, just to keep in mind!). Since there is no proof, I'm in favor of "in dubio pro reo", people are so various and different regarding what they feel and suffer from. And arguing the available hints against Mary as the "hellcat" IMO means also arguing in favor of Abraham Lincoln, who sometimes seems to be presented as the poor, passive, quietly suffering victim. I think he was anything but that.

(12-14-2013 08:59 AM)Mike B. Wrote: Mary hurt Lincoln's career than in the short-term because by marrying her, he lost an almost certain Whig nomination to Congress in 1844, because he was now the "candidate of wealth, pride, and aristorcratic institution

Mike, this is an excellent argument from A. Lincoln's point of view!!! Still Laurie's (as I assume) and my focus solely concerned Mary's point of view and her possibly foreseeable future cut backs at the very point in time when she made her decision for this marriage, which, I think (having no proof) both the Lincolns intended as a lifelong one.

(12-14-2013 08:59 AM)Mike B. Wrote: There is a internal contradiction in all this. If Mary was smart enough as the writing goes that she recognized his potential, how can we then say it wasn't clear at the time he would be successful?

I don't see an internal contradiction here. Having potential doesn't guarantee being successful. To take it to the top: When do you think was it clear A. Lincoln would become president? If you had asked William Seward on the morning of the election day he would sure have said never...

(12-14-2013 08:59 AM)Mike B. Wrote: As far as the line behind about a great man having a great woman behind them, it is not a universal truth.

That's why I said "often". My main intention was to ackowledge what wifes of men in such demanding positions often do in disguise behind the stage (giving emotinal support, or e.g. fulfilling social and representative duties), and what they often have to bear with dignity (e.g. public gossip) rather that saying to be married it is a necessary requirement for success or achievement. I don't try to word it another way to make it fit somehow. You are correct, the phrase is not a universal truth.

As for Einstein, he did not only divorce his wife, he also disowned and even refused to see their daughter Liserl (Elisabeth), who suffered from the Down Syndrome, because he feared it would damage his career if her existence became public. Later he wasn't much in favor of his second marriage, too.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 12-15-2013 03:46 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: On the point of the Lincolns regretting the marriage? Nothing can be said on that. For all we know both may have regretted it at times, but we don't have any real evidence that this is so.

One thing I would point out, and I think it can't be waved away. Mary did hit Lincoln in the face with a log hard, and was bruised enough that he had to go and buy bandages. He went to court all bandaged up the next day.

Allow me to provokingly ask "And?" If you argue that way as "what evidence do we have", you could argue the same way in the latterp case. Do the bandages tell what Abraham Lincoln thought about the incident? He was often forgiving and showed empathy, and who knows how things really happened.

AFAIK, all the stories that Mary stuck her husband with firewood or broomsticks were told by Herndon (please correct me if I'm wrong!) - just to remark...and time expands memory, too, regarding the "bandaged all up". (Wasn't it a bandaged nose, BTW?)

(12-14-2013 08:59 AM)Mike B. Wrote: I do answer many your points including the idea that she spurred his ambition (It was already there). in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma." co-edited by me and Frank Williams. Remember Mary at the time in one of her letters belittle "female politicians." Also, the "Mary we are elected." is much more likely to simply mean the family or just a throwaway line. It is too little a reed to put that much interpretative significance. Again, I ask for real hard evidence where she helped make him President. It is simply not there.

Yes, you are right, the quote is no evidence. I personally took it as a hint, but admit it probably can't even be regarded as such.

(12-14-2013 08:49 AM)RJNorton Wrote: "On my arrival I went to my bedroom and found my wife sound asleep. I gently touched her shoulder and said, ' Mary '; she made no answer. I spoke again, a little louder, saying, ' Mary, Mary! we are elected!"

Thanks, Roger, what a "romantic"

Mike B. · 12-14-2013, 11:15 PM

(12-14-2013 08:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(12-13-2013 06:56 PM)Mike B. Wrote: On the point of the Lincolns regretting the marriage? Nothing can be said on that. For all we know both may have regretted it at times, but we don't have any real evidence that this is so.

One thing I would point out, and I think it can't be waved away. Mary did hit Lincoln in the face with a log hard, and was bruised enough that he had to go and buy bandages. He went to court all bandaged up the next day.
Allow me to provokingly ask "And?" If you argue that way as "what evidence do we have", you could argue the same way in the latter case. Do the bandages tell what Abraham Lincoln thought about the incident? He was often forgiving and showed empathy, and who knows how things really happened.

AFAIK, all the stories that Mary stuck her husband with firewood or broomsticks were told by Herndon (please correct me if I'm wrong!) - just to remark...and time expands memory, too, regarding the "bandaged all up". (Wasn't it a bandaged nose, BTW?)

(12-14-2013 08:59 AM)Mike B. Wrote: I do answer many your points including the idea that she spurred his ambition (It was already there). in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma." co-edited by me and Frank Williams. Remember Mary at the time in one of her letters belittle "female politicians." Also, the "Mary we are elected." is much more likely to simply mean the family or just a throwaway line. It is too little a reed to put that much interpretative significance. Again, I ask for real hard evidence where she helped make him President. It is simply not there.
Yes, you are right, the quote is no evidence. I personally took it as a hint, but admit it probably can't even be regarded as such.
I have your book on the pile as one of the next to be read, I'm really looking forward to it.

(12-14-2013 08:49 AM)RJNorton Wrote: "On my arrival I went to my bedroom and found my wife sound asleep. I gently touched her shoulder and said, ' Mary '; she made no answer. I spoke again, a little louder, saying, ' Mary, Mary! we are elected!"
Thanks, Roger, what a "romantic" version!

I am confused with your response "and." The evidence firewood incident did not come from Herndon alone, and if it did that does not make it ipso facto false. Daniel Epstein has found other sources and the records of the buying of the bandages by Lincoln in a local store. So it happened.

I don't think smacking a spouse in the face with firewood is an "and?" moment. It is a little more serious than that.
Herndon does talk of witnessing Lincoln hiding out in the Law Office trying to escape his wife and being quite upset.

Ruth Painter Randall's "Mary Lincoln: Biography of a Marriage" has a good quote from Lincoln, that Lincoln still loved his wife in the White House. So yes Lincoln was forgiving and was physically attracted to Mary. One can tell from his letters to her from Congress. So as I said, there is not an iota of evidence that they regretted the marriage. The only thing I can think of is that Lincoln told his best man, when asked where he was going, "to hell I suppose." But that seems more like marriage jitters.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 12-15-2013 03:39 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Mike, the "And?" was, as I said, quite provoking. For me as for you, smacking anyone, especially a beloved person, with firewood or anything else is absolutely a no-go, and beyond reason and imagination!!! Also I didn't intend to express doubts that such incidents happened at the Lincolns'. I ONLY wanted to point out that this still doesn't allow to conclude it made Abraham Lincoln regretting his marriage, as bad as we might find and as bad as it might have been what Mary did. It is nowhere told what Abraham Lincoln himself thought about Mary's misbehavior.
As for Herndon, he disliked Mary and tended to put and tell such things much to Mary's disadvantage. I think he stretched and exaggerated the truth at times, so I was wondering if it is possible that he made the incidents worse that they admittedly already were. But you are right, a smaller size of the bandage wouldn't have made abuse any better.

As for the quote, you possibly mean what Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent to the "Christian Register" at a White House reception: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out" ?!

Angela · 12-15-2013, 05:26 AM

(12-15-2013 12:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: As for Herndon, he disliked Mary and tended to put and tell such things much to Mary's disadvantage. I think he stretched and exaggerated the truth at times, so I was wondering if it is possible that he made the incidents worse that they admittedly already were. But you are right, a smaller size of the bandage wouldn't have made abuse any better.

Eva, I am not a hundred percent sure but wasn't this particular incident - the Dubois story - given to Jesse Weik?