Did Lincoln Regret Marrying Mary?

[irshgrl500]

As for the shopping addiction: I have mentioned the book Crowns of Thorns and Glory before - a comparison of Mary Lincoln and Varina Davis. It has been years since I read it, but one thing stuck in my mind. When she became First Lady, many of the merchants (especially in New York) sent items to her in order to gain favor and also publicity for their merchandise. She assumed they were gifts and used them. She found out later that bills had been sent separately. Whether this is true or not, I don't know; however, it bears a ring of truth to me. And, Donna McCreary has already given us a logical explanation for her purchase of so many gloves.
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In all fairness, in the years since Mary was First Lady, haven't many First Ladies made this same mistake? It is an easy misconception; many businesses would benefit from a White House or First Lady's choice of their items. China, Crystal, Window treatments, Furnishings, the list is endless. So, when businesses or anyone sends the new First Lady, an assortment of say, Irish Linens, tablecloths and matching napkins, for 50 settings; this suggests a gift, or "compliments" of such & such co. I certainly wouldn't expect a bill. That's almost rude. Then again, when it was time to leave, the White House, at the end of my husband's term, I wouldn't assume the "gifts" or items, which I acquired were mine to take home, but that the items belong to the White House. Nancy Reagan i believe tried taking sets of dishes, with her, when departing the White House, and to settle in her permanent home in Bel Air. She argued that she paid for the items, which was also incorrect. The White House or the Federal Government paid the bills.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Did Robert ever comment on his parents marriage? And - what was his own marriage like?

[Liz Rosenthal]

(10-13-2013 04:47 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Did Robert ever comment on his parents marriage? And - what was his own marriage like?

I doubt it. Robert Lincoln did not believe that anything concerning his private family life was anyone else's business. The fact that he held on to his father's papers throughout his life, only permitting a limited circle of people to examine them, and then only arranged for their public release 25 years after his death, shows how close to the breast Robert kept those documents.

But I wouldn't doubt that Robert also destroyed a lot of documents - anything he thought might cast an unfavorable light on his family, or simply attract an unbecoming level of interest in the Lincolns. It's possible that many questions we have about AL and Mary might have been answered if not for Robert's actions.

[Donna McCreary]

To my knowledge, there is no documentation or evidence that Lincoln regretted his marriage to Mary. He spoiled her, comforted her, and showered her with gifts both in Springfield and in Washington. Did they have arguments? Yes, they did. They they agree on everything? No, they did not.
I think one of the strongest pieces of evidence there is to say that Lincoln had no regrets is that he never divorced her. As an attorney, he most certainly could have. Divorce may have been rare in the 19th century, but it was not uncommon in the Todd family. Two of Mary's brothers divorced. If at any moment, Lincoln had decided to leave Mary, develop a wondering eye, or divorce his wife, the Todds would have surrounded Mary and given her all of the support, comfort, legal aid (she had many lawyers in her family) that she would have needed. She had her own financial support.
I have always viewed the Lincolns as a couple who managed to find one another despite their differences. They were a couple who managed to love one another against the odds. They maintained a marriage during the most stressful times.
Plus, I just can not imagine Mary choosing to wear black mourning attire for the last 17 years of her life if there had been any doubt of Lincoln's deep and committed love for her.

[Liz Rosenthal]

Donna:

I'm sure you're right that they loved each other; however, I don't think the fact that they didn't divorce is evidence of that.

Even if divorces did occur, wasn't there a stigma surrounding divorce in those days?

And wouldn't a divorce have harmed Lincoln politically? In my opinion, Lincoln's reason for being was politics. Any way he could avoid a situation that would get in the way of his political advancement would have been paramount in his mind. So even if Lincoln might have preferred a divorce (I'm not saying he did), divorcing Mary was probably not an option.

As for Mary wearing mourning clothes for the last 17 years of her life.... While I'm sure her grief was genuine, I also get the feeling that she had a bit of an investment in suffering. Rather than trying to get better, she seemed intent on wallowing in her misery. This was certainly the case with Willie's death, and her husband's death was many times more traumatic than the loss of Willie. Mary may not have realized it, but she did seem to crave sympathy and court indulgence in her behavior for the remainder of her years.

[RJNorton]

Congratulations to Donna, and her co-author, Kim Bauer, on being offered an advance contract for their book, The Myths, Mysteries, and Mayhem of Mary Lincoln. Way to go, Donna! Best of luck! This is wonderful news.

[L Verge]

I second those congratulations, Donna. You are certainly well-known and well-respected in the Lincoln community for your many contributions to understanding both of the Lincolns, as well as 19th-century society and culture. You have earned your accolades!

[Eva Elisabeth]

Sometimes I'm quite astonished that the idea Abraham Lincoln might have regretted his marriage is picked up so often. Just that "we" probably (all) have different ideas of a happy marriage - and probably different to what we THINK A. L. experienced - doesn't justify to conclude he suffered from his marriage. I don't think he ever considered himself unhappily married or felt he suffered from those of Mary's character traits many people consider abusing. I don't think he ever felt abused. Why else would he e.g. have gone home during a thunderstorm to calm Mary down if her probably hysterical fits had annoyed him?

Is there any hint that once married A. L. shed any serious thought on other women (including Mses Griffin, Ord and Salm Salm) in this regard? Or any statement where he expressed regret? (I wouldn't consider the statement about committing her to an asylum alone sufficient evidence.)

Also, IMO, the idea of getting divorced as soon as any difficulties occur did not match A. L.'s attitude towards taking on responsibility for a decision - including for marriage as a lifelong decision, in good times and bad.

Finally, I don't think A. Lincoln was so much afraid of stigmata. Would a divorce have harmed him politically? Perhaps, but I think the lack of Mary's support would have been the most harming side of such a coin. Or, as Mary's nephew Albert S. Edwards said: Mary "had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln president than many people think". And I think Mr. Lincoln knew that.

[Gene C]

Well said, Eva.
Seems like Mary's good qualities are over shadowed by some of her other behavior.

Donna, looking foreword to your book. Will you be addressing Mary's spending habits while she was in the White House ?

[L Verge]

Bless you, Eva, for making that post!

All I would add is that, if we have to be judgmental and try to analyze the Lincolns' personal lives over 150 years ago, let's also ask if Mary ever regretted marrying Abe during the long periods when she was left to hold down the fort while he rode circuit, or make finances work on a lower income than what she was accustomed to, or to suffer with him during his bouts with depression, or to share him with the country during its worst time.

Marriage requires driving on a two-way street. I believe that the Lincolns and the people of their era understood this more than many of us do today and made efforts to make it through the tough times and accept personal flaws.

[Gene C]

Can't remember where I heard this....

"Embrace the faults of your spouse. If it weren't for their faults, they would have married someone better than you"

[Eva Elisabeth]

(11-14-2013 09:09 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Bless you, Eva, for making that post!

All I would add is that, if we have to be judgmental and try to analyze the Lincolns' personal lives over 150 years ago, let's also ask if Mary ever regretted marrying Abe during the long periods when she was left to hold down the fort while he rode circuit, or make finances work on a lower income than what she was accustomed to, or to suffer with him during his bouts with depression, or to share him with the country during its worst time.

Marriage requires driving on a two-way street. I believe that the Lincolns and the people of their era understood this more than many of us do today and made efforts to make it through the tough times and accept personal flaws.

Thanks Gene and Laurie! Laurie, THIS was indeed in my mind, too!! Thanks for adding it. A. Lincoln just gave up bachelor life, Mary gave up a lot more regarding social status and lifestyle. I think she always tried to do her very best, as it was possible due to her inherited disposition, her skills and abilities and the external circumstances. IMO this was and is not adequately appreciated, neither at her time nor nowadays.

[Donna McCreary]

Thank you for the kind words of support regarding our book project. Our manuscript is a collectioin of questions that Kim Bauer and I have been asked by audiences (and others) over the years. The questions range from the simple: "How many children did Mary have?" - to the complicated: "Why did Mary spend so much money redecorating the White House?" - to the detailed: "Exactly how much education did Mary receive and what did she study?"

If anyone wants to add questions, I have a thread titled "What would you ask?" in the section "Mary Lincoln and the Boys."

[L Verge]

Kim Bauer will be speaking on Mrs. Lincoln at the Surratt conference in March -- right before Jason Emerson speaks on Robert Lincoln. I understand that there are opposing viewpoints on Mrs. Lincoln between those two men. It should prove interesting.

[Mike B.]

(11-13-2013 08:50 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Finally, I don't think A. Lincoln was so much afraid of stigmata. Would a divorce have harmed him politically? Perhaps, but I think the lack of Mary's support would have been the most harming side of such a coin. Or, as Mary's nephew Albert S. Edwards said: Mary "had more to do with making Mr. Lincoln president than many people think". And I think Mr. Lincoln knew that.

Strongly disagree on this point.
Lincoln became President because of georgraphy, availability, the failure of the Seward team, his awesome political skills and judgement, the contacts he made on the circut that ran his campaign. To say that Mary "made" Lincoln President is really unhistorical. It is hard to point to any evidence this is true."

On the point of the Lincolns regretting the marriage? Nothing can be said on that. For all we know both may have regretted it at times, but we don't have any real evidence that this is so.

One thing I would point out, and I think it can't be waved away. Mary did hit Lincoln in the face with a log hard, and was bruised enough that he had to go and buy bandages. He went to court all bandaged up the next day.

The usual excuse I hear is that Lincoln wasn't listening to her, and she got mad. Is that a legitimate excuse? Would anyone except it if Lincoln had physically hit Mary?

I don't like the American trait of a team Lincoln and a team Mary, where there is no middle ground (we seem to do this with everything a British friend commented to me, and I agreed.) But is it possible to still like Mary while saying her spousal acts of violence were particularily wrong?

I can only talk from experience. I have been married 12 years and the thought of either my wife or me physically hitting or throwing anything at each other is impossible for me to imagine.

No doubt male spousal abuse towards women was much more common then than today unfortunetly.

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(11-14-2013 11:42 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(11-14-2013 09:09 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Bless you, Eva, for making that post!

All I would add is that, if we have to be judgmental and try to analyze the Lincolns' personal lives over 150 years ago, let's also ask if Mary ever regretted marrying Abe during the long periods when she was left to hold down the fort while he rode circuit, or make finances work on a lower income than what she was accustomed to, or to suffer with him during his bouts with depression, or to share him with the country during its worst time.

Marriage requires driving on a two-way street. I believe that the Lincolns and the people of their era understood this more than many of us do today and made efforts to make it through the tough times and accept personal flaws.

Thanks Gene and Laurie! Laurie, THIS was indeed in my mind, too!! Thanks for adding it. A. Lincoln just gave up bachelor life, Mary gave up a lot more regarding social status and lifestyle. I think she always tried to do her very best, as it was possible due to her inherited disposition, her skills and abilities and the external circumstances. IMO this was and is not adequately appreciated, neither at her time nor nowadays.

Need to disagree with this point. Mary was getting older (for the time). Lincoln was a rising man, Whig floor leader and soon Congressman. She did not pick a dud. Heck, he even became President.

The idea that she was marrying a hayseed needs to be re-examined. Read his Lyceum speech he wrote before he met her. He was certainly not polished, but his political success was on him being "honest Abe" and the "rail-spliter" not being the dandy.

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One other point. The Todd sisters moved to Springfield to marry. Elizabeth who was considered the most attractive, she was the oldest sister who married an Edwards one of the first families of the state. Francis married a doctor, and Ann (who Mary hated, but looked like her physically) married a merchant.

It bears out saying that Mary made the best choice. Both Elizabeth's and Francis's husbands hit Lincoln up for jobs when he was President because they needed the money. Ironically, the one I think that helped Lincoln the most was Ann's husband who Lincoln wrote his First Inaugeral Address in his office.