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David Lockmiller · 06-27-2014, 02:00 PM

(06-24-2014 04:33 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Here's the key Billy Herndon quote:

From Herndon's Life of Lincoln, Da Capo ed., pp. 105-106:

"I knew Miss Rutledge myself, as well as her father and other members of the family, and have been personally acquainted with every one of the score or more of witnesses whom I at one time or another interviewed on this delicate subject.... My father was a politician and an extensive stock dealer in that early day, and he and Mr. Rutledge were great friends."

I always wonder when people use ellipses what they are omitting and why. And, since Mr. Gannett is quoting from the same book as I did, it was easy to locate the complete quote and the text that preceded this quote.

Other Lincoln authors that had preceded any Lincoln biography written by Herndon (but after his "Ann Rutledge" lecture in 1866) had cast doubt on the Ann Rutledge romance. Herdon immediately preceded the "key" quote cited by Mr. Gannett with a discussion about how other published Lincoln biographers had treated this subject and immediately thereafter made his own argument in disagreement with their conclusions regarding Lincoln's Ann Rutledge romance:

"Arnold says: 'The picture has been somewhat too highly colored, and the story made rather too tragic.' Dr. Holland and others omit the subject altogether, while the most recent biography--the admirable history by my friends Nicolay and Hay--devotes but five lines to it."

Of course later prominent Lincoln authors such as Ida Tarbell, Professor David Herbert Donald, Professor Michael Burlingame, and I do not know how many others supported Herndon's conclusion regarding the importance to Lincoln of the Ann Rutledge romance. I quote from Professor Donald's Pulitizer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57 on this subject matter:

"They had more reason to worry about Ann's [health], for in August she fell ill with 'brain fever'--probably typhoid, caused when the flood contaminated the Rutledge well--and was put to bed. Though her doctor prescribed absolute quiet, she insisted on seeing Lincoln. A few days afterward she became unconscious, and on August 25 she died.

Lincoln was devastated.This terrible blow must have brought to his mind memories of earlier losses: his brother Thomas, his sister Sarah, and, above all, his mother. His nerves already frayed by overwork and too much study, began to give way, and he fell into a profound depression. He managed to hold himself together for a time, but after the funeral it began to rain again and his melancholy deepened. He told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could note bare[sic] the idea of its raining on her Grave.' So distraught was he that his friends persuaded him to visit his old friend Bowling Green . . . ."

Following Herdon's discussion of how contemporary Lincoln biographers had either ignored the topic or minimized its life effect upon Lincoln, Herndon continued with his narrative which Mr. Gannett quoted in part.

What Mr. Gannett leaves out of importance to Herndon's key quote is the following sentence and the footnote content referenced thereto:

From my own knowledge and the information thus obtained, I therefore repeat, that the memory of Anne Rutledge was the saddest chapter in Mr. Lincoln's life. Footnote 2: The original edition contains the following footnote: "In a letter dated Dec. 4, 1866, one of Miss Rutledge's brothers writes: 'When he first came to New Salem and up to the day of Anne's death Mr. Lincoln was all life and animation. He seemed to see the bright side of every picture.'"

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2014 02:17 PM by Gene C.)

(06-27-2014 01:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [Allow me this general remark: Maybe I'm not that smart or knowledgeable, but I admit, I often get lost in the length of the posts and quotes on this thread, especially as for what a quote (or which passage of it) shall "prove" (better: indicate) what (assumption, believe, or so), and why at all it (in such detail) is important. (Hope you understand what I mean.)

Some of us do (get lost in a long post & understand what you mean)

I really wanted to write more about it than that Big Grin

David Lockmiller · 06-27-2014, 07:22 PM

(06-24-2014 04:33 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: [T]he more credible of the New Salem informants (e.g., Elizabeth Abell) professed no personal knowledge of AL-AR romance, and those who did claim knowledge were suspect, some of them--William "Slick Willy" Greene, for example--highly suspect. By the way, Hannah Armstrong had nothing at all to say about Rutledge romance. (Michael Burlingame's claim to the contrary is based on a weirdly flimsy newspaper quote from a daughter of Hannah's published in I think 1930. This is what you call desperate evidence.)

This is getting stranger and stranger.

Mr. Gannett makes the claim above that Elizabeth Abell "professed no personal knowledge of the AL-AR romance."

Yet, Professor David Herbert Donald states in his Pulitzer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57: "[Lincoln] told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave.'" If Mrs. Abell "professed no personal knowledge of the AL-AR romance," then Mrs. Abell must have been absolutely stupefied as to why Lincoln became so upset at the thought of the rain falling on her grave.

And, Professor Burlingame in his book Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, page 100 wrote: "Elizabeth Abell, who witnessed the depth of Lincoln's grief, recalled that 'he was staying with us at the time of her death,' which was a great shock to him and I never seen a man mourn for a companion more than he did for her.' The 'community said he was crazy' but 'he was not crazy,' though 'he was very disponding a long time.'"

Professor Burlingame cites as the source for these comments by Elizabeth Abell (who Mr. Gannett describes above as "one of the more credible of the New Salem informants) as a statement made by her to Herdon on 15 Feb. 1867 (Herndon's Informants), pp. 556-557.

And, then, Mr. Gannett disparages the entire testimony made by William G. Greene in an interview with William Herndon at Elm Wood, Illinois on May 30, 1865 by referring to Greene as William "Slick Willy" Greene, without citing any basis for this character assassination. Professor Burlingame at page 100, on the other hand, appears to consider William Greene to be a credible source and quotes the story he told at length:

William Greene testified that "after the sudden death of one whom his soul & heart dearly & lov[e]d," Lincoln's friends were "[c]ompelled to keep watch and ward over Mr Lincoln," for he was "from the sudden shock somewhat temporarily deranged. We watched during sotrms--fogs--damp gloomy weather Mr Lincoln for fear of an accident. He said 'I can never be recondiled to have the snow--rains & storms to beat on her grave.'"

Professor Burlingame quotes (again, at page 100) William Greene's comments regarding the duration of Lincoln's recovery made to another interviewer Paul Hull in 1887 for an article entitled "Another Lincoln Tale" which was published by the New York Mail and Express on page 16 of the February 15, 1896 issue.

"Long after Anne died," Greene reported, "Abe and I would be alone perhaps in the grocery on a rainy night, and Abe would sit there, his elbows on his knees, his face in his hands, the tears dropping through his fingers."

In order to complete this section, I thought that I would quote from Professor Burlingame's book (page 100) , the "desperate evidence" provided by Eliza Armstrong Smith, the daughter of Hannah Armstrong, in correspondence to the Lerna, Illinois, Eagle which was published on September 19, 1930 (if my reading of the citation is correct):

"Another surrogate mother, Hannah Armstrong, saw 'Lincoln weep like a baby over the death of Ann Rutledge.'"

In summary, according to Mr. Gannett, one witness who he believed, Elizabeth Abell, was quoted by Professor David Herbert Donald as being told by Lincoln that "that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave." Mr. Gannett then thoroughly discredits additional testimony of the same nature because it comes from William "Slick Willy" Greene, without a word as to how William Greene earned Mr. Gannett's condemnation. Professor Burlingame, on the other hand, appears to disagree with Mr. Gannett's assessment of William Greene's character. And, according to Mr. Gannett, the daughter of Hannah Armstrong was "desperate" to get her name in a small Illinois town newspaper.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2014 10:35 PM by Gene C.)

(06-26-2014 08:23 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: However--this might come as a bit of a surprise--I don't care very much about whether or not Lincoln was "gay." It's interesting, and important in some ways, but it's not my focus. I'm much more interested in why, in academia, especially in top-tier academia, interpretation flip-flops happen. For example, why did Lincoln Studies reverse itself on the Rutledge story? I find that kind of question enormously interesting. It's the subject of my next book.

It's a surprise in one sense, it's a bunch of hogwash. Which isn't a surprise, it's a pattern.

(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: In short, Herndon grew up with first-hand knowledge of Lincoln's life in New Salem. Why then had Herndon never heard of Lincoln's love for Ann and his extreme distress when she died? I'm writing a book that will discuss that question. I'd be happy to talk about it here, but for now will close with this: Herndon's "great discovery" about Lincoln's tragic love affair looks mighty funny from the very beginning. It's worth keeping in mind that New Salem was a tiny village, and nearby Springfield was a dusty little market town. Gossip moves fast in such locales. Why did it take Herndon thirty years to learn about a pivotal episode in his hero's youth? Yes, it's true that John Hill in 1862 published a story in the Menard Axis about Lincoln falling desperately in love with a fair maiden who tragically died, which plunged Lincoln into such despair that it alarmed his friends. And it's true that several New Salem oldtimers told Herndon that Lincoln collapsed after Ann died. But somehow, Herndon never before had heard these stories. Well, what of it? Maybe he just wasn't paying attention or something. No, that simply doesn't wash. Something else was going on. Suffice it to say: devious Herndon. At the risk of seeming immodest I'll point out that, to my knowledge, this particular angle on the genesis of the Ann Rutledge story makes its public debut here.

That's not the subject for your book that you emphasized on another thread

(06-24-2014 04:33 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: I also think that Herndon wanted to dilute the fact that Lincoln was highly "sex-minded." Why? Herndon felt duty-bound to protect Lincoln from charges that he found sexual & romantic fulfillment with men. What better way to tamp down discussion of THAT hair-raising idea than to portray Lincoln as indifferent to sexual romance in general? If this is what Herndon set out to do--I'm 97% sure that it was--he succeeded brilliantly.

If you don't care if Lincoln is gay, why is it that this has been the major theme of several of you most recent posts, and it's the foundation of the book your writing? Without it, you don't have a story. Actually, that's all you have, a story and it's not a very good one either.

Consider this idea - Herndon felt duty-bound to protect Lincoln from charges that he was a vampire & he found fulfillment in drinking blood. What better way to tamp down discussion of THAT hair-raising idea than to portray Lincoln as indifferent in general? If this is what you have Herndon set out to do -- I'm 97% sure you will succeed brilliantly.

Lewis Gannett · 06-28-2014, 11:09 AM

(06-27-2014 04:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(06-26-2014 08:23 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: OK then, the obvious question: Am I making that mistake? Maybe. However--this might come as a bit of a surprise--I don't care very much about whether or not Lincoln was "gay."

Lewis, this is also the way I feel (although I've stated my personal opinion), but can you (or anyone else) explain why Dr. Hanchett seems to feel it is? I am looking at Part 4 of his Lincoln Herald series as I write this, and I quote: "The thesis C.A. Tripp presents in The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln requires either that it be refuted or that Lincoln biography and American history be revised."

"American history be revised" based on whether or not Lincoln was gay?! Wow. I totally do not understand why it's that important in the big scheme of things. Lewis, I realize what you have said regarding private lives and Lincoln biography, but when it comes to American history as a whole I do not understand why a revision is necessary.

Hanchett mostly likely is referring to history about Lincoln's personal life. While it's true that the personal side isn't of the same importance and scale as his public place in history, the "everyday Lincoln" has long held a major place in our conception of the American past. Should we have as accurate an understanding as we can of "Lincoln the man"? I think so. And by the way: I do know that many people resist efforts to change the image of a favorite historical figure, especially if the changes seem to serve an irrelevant purpose. So of course there will be controversy with new interpretations--probably with any new interpretation of the "inner self" of so iconic a figure as Lincoln. But the gay idea is particularly explosive. To some it seems like a desecration. That kind of protectiveness can sometimes--like everything else--go overboard. An eminent Lincoln scholar, whom I won't name out of respect for his contributions, once said to me that gay people want to think that Lincoln was gay only because "it makes them feel better about themselves." He was saying that there's no reason to question understandings of Lincoln's love life: he basically slammed the door. What a bunch of issues that opens up! It gets back to the problem of objectivity. It seems to me that if you can't have an open mind about new ways to see the past, you probably shouldn't be in the history profession. New interpretations should be greeted with skepticism, obviously. Most new ideas in my experience are wrong, and often ludicrously wrong. But to rule out a new way of seeing the past just because it offends you, is something else entirely. This is a roundabout way of commenting on Hanchett's attitude. I think he's saying that the historian must deal with evidence and revise--or not revise--accordingly, regardless of one's own private feelings. Let me hasten to add that I don't speak for William Hanchett. This is my understanding.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2014 11:54 AM by L Verge.)

" This is a roundabout way of commenting on Hanchett's attitude. I think he's saying that the historian must deal with evidence and revise--or not revise--accordingly, regardless of one's own private feelings. Let me hasten to add that I don't speak for William Hanchett. This is my understanding."

Your closing sentences above, Mr. Gannett, make more sense to me than anything else that has been so far posted. I have been friends with Bill Hanchett for over thirty years. We correspond very little now because of his advanced age and ill health, and I don't intend to drag him personally into this thread. However, I will say that I (and others) were very surprised when he "accepted" the Tripp thesis. It was so unlike him.

Your comment makes more sense to me -- he was accepting the idea of considering new angles to the Lincoln story, not putting his stamp of approval on the idea that Lincoln had gay tendencies. (I use that latter word to indicate that I believe his love of Ann, his devotion to Mary, his prowess at producing four sons, and his enjoyment of sexual topics all show proof of his heterosexual preference.)

As for my thoughts on Ann Rutledge: I can easily imagine that they had a thing going (and I don't mean sexual) and that Lincoln was devastated when she died. As a child, he had endured the loss of his mother and sister; and here was another loved one dying on him. It had to dredge up old memories of the previous hurts. I also get the sense that his personal side (outside of the political world) was a kind and caring one and that certain things hurt him deeply. But, life goes on.

It took nearly a decade before he took the plunge with Mary, so he had time to recuperate, judge other young ladies, consider the situation of marriage, and even make a choice to be a life-long bachelor (and maybe a gay one at that!). He chose a heterosexual, committed marriage with Mary Todd that had both good and bad sides to it. The finished product of Lincoln the Man is what matters to me...not the ups and downs that it took to mould him into the President of the United States who served during our country's most difficult time.

Lewis Gannett · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2014 12:35 PM by Lewis Gannett.)

(06-27-2014 07:22 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:
(06-24-2014 04:33 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: [T]he more credible of the New Salem informants (e.g., Elizabeth Abell) professed no personal knowledge of AL-AR romance, and those who did claim knowledge were suspect, some of them--William "Slick Willy" Greene, for example--highly suspect. By the way, Hannah Armstrong had nothing at all to say about Rutledge romance. (Michael Burlingame's claim to the contrary is based on a weirdly flimsy newspaper quote from a daughter of Hannah's published in I think 1930. This is what you call desperate evidence.)

This is getting stranger and stranger.

Mr. Gannett makes the claim above that Elizabeth Abell "professed no personal knowledge of the AL-AR romance."

Yet, Professor David Herbert Donald states in his Pulitzer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57: "[Lincoln] told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave.'" If Mrs. Abell "professed no personal knowledge of the AL-AR romance," then Mrs. Abell must have been absolutely stupefied as to why Lincoln became so upset at the thought of the rain falling on her grave.

And, Professor Burlingame in his book Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, page 100 wrote: "Elizabeth Abell, who witnessed the depth of Lincoln's grief, recalled that 'he was staying with us at the time of her death,' which was a great shock to him and I never seen a man mourn for a companion more than he did for her.' The 'community said he was crazy' but 'he was not crazy,' though 'he was very disponding a long time.'"

Professor Burlingame cites as the source for these comments by Elizabeth Abell (who Mr. Gannett describes above as "one of the more credible of the New Salem informants) as a statement made by her to Herdon on 15 Feb. 1867 (Herndon's Informants), pp. 556-557.

And, then, Mr. Gannett disparages the entire testimony made by William G. Greene in an interview with William Herndon at Elm Wood, Illinois on May 30, 1865 by referring to Greene as William "Slick Willy" Greene, without citing any basis for this character assassination. Professor Burlingame at page 100, on the other hand, appears to consider William Greene to be a credible source and quotes the story he told at length:

William Greene testified that "after the sudden death of one whom his soul & heart dearly & lov[e]d," Lincoln's friends were "[c]ompelled to keep watch and ward over Mr Lincoln," for he was "from the sudden shock somewhat temporarily deranged. We watched during sotrms--fogs--damp gloomy weather Mr Lincoln for fear of an accident. He said 'I can never be recondiled to have the snow--rains & storms to beat on her grave.'"

Professor Burlingame quotes (again, at page 100) William Greene's comments regarding the duration of Lincoln's recovery made to another interviewer Paul Hull in 1887 for an article entitled "Another Lincoln Tale" which was published by the New York Mail and Express on page 16 of the February 15, 1896 issue.

"Long after Anne died," Greene reported, "Abe and I would be alone perhaps in the grocery on a rainy night, and Abe would sit there, his elbows on his knees, his face in his hands, the tears dropping through his fingers."

In order to complete this section, I thought that I would quote from Professor Burlingame's book (page 100) , the "desperate evidence" provided by Eliza Armstrong Smith, the daughter of Hannah Armstrong, in correspondence to the Lerna, Illinois, Eagle which was published on September 19, 1930 (if my reading of the citation is correct):

"Another surrogate mother, Hannah Armstrong, saw 'Lincoln weep like a baby over the death of Ann Rutledge.'"

In summary, according to Mr. Gannett, one witness who he believed, Elizabeth Abell, was quoted by Professor David Herbert Donald as being told by Lincoln that "that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave." Mr. Gannett then thoroughly discredits additional testimony of the same nature because it comes from William "Slick Willy" Greene, without a word as to how William Greene earned Mr. Gannett's condemnation. Professor Burlingame, on the other hand, appears to disagree with Mr. Gannett's assessment of William Greene's character. And, according to Mr. Gannett, the daughter of Hannah Armstrong was "desperate" to get her name in a small Illinois town newspaper.

David Lockmiller: Prof. David Donald didn't in fact cite Elizabeth Abell's quote as evidence that Lincoln romantically loved Ann Rutledge. Elizabeth Abell wrote to Herndon about Lincoln and Ann, "the Courtship between him and Miss Rutledge I can say but little this much I do know he was staying with us at the time of her death it was a great shock to him and I never seen a man mourn for a companion more than he did for her." Herndon's Informants, pp. 556-57. Donald commented about this passage, "Mrs. Abell, who may have been Lincoln's closest confidant in New Salem, professed to know nothing about a love affair, though she testified to Lincoln's genuine grief at Ann's death." "We Are Lincoln Men": Abraham Lincoln and His Friends, p. 22. Donald in this book rejects the Rutledge story, in part because Elizabeth Abell, who was indeed a very close New Salem friend of Lincoln's, couldn't confirm a love affair. Abell did confirm that Lincoln took Ann's death hard. Does that mean that Lincoln & Ann were in love and planned to marry? Some historians think so. David Donald isn't among them! About William Greene, whose nickname actually was "Slicky Bill," not "Slick Willie" (my memory lapse). Herndon himself expressed doubts about William Greene's truthfulness. It's true that Tarbell quoted Greene without reservation, and so does Michael Burlingame. But that doesn't mean that Greene is a reliable source. David Donald, for one, didn't consider him reliable--and by the way, Donald mentions Greene's nickname, "Slicky Bill," in "We Are Lincoln Men" (p. 11). About Hannah Armstrong. I can't for the life of me understand how Michael Burlingame can claim that a 1930 newspaper quote provides credible evidence about Lincoln's reaction to Ann Rutledge's death almost a century before. If I recall correctly, Burlingame doesn't even explain how the alleged quote from Hannah's alleged daughter even got into the newspaper. By 1930, of course, the Rutledge story had become the Rutledge Legend, with novels, plays, movies, magazine articles breathlessly portraying a doomed high romance. If we're going to take seriously the idea that Lincoln "bawled like a baby" after Ann Rutledge died, it doesn't help that the only evidence for it came from such a far remove.

Gene wrote, "There's a little more to it than that. Each of the writers you mentioned had more material to examine than their predecesor." Actually, Gene, with regard to the Rutledge story, the evidence really hasn't changed since Herndon corresponded with and interviewed witnesses. You can find almost every last item in the indispensable book Herndon's Informants. A few interviews with some of Ann's sisters appeared independently of Herndon; in my opinion they add very little to the record, mostly because the sisters in question were very young when Ann died. And then we have such finds as the quote in a newspaper article published in 1930, allegedly from Hannah Armstrong's daughter, which asserts that Lincoln "bawled like a baby" after Ann died. If you consider that good evidence I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

Lewis Gannett · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2014 01:38 PM by Lewis Gannett.)

(06-28-2014 11:53 AM)L Verge Wrote: " This is a roundabout way of commenting on Hanchett's attitude. I think he's saying that the historian must deal with evidence and revise--or not revise--accordingly, regardless of one's own private feelings. Let me hasten to add that I don't speak for William Hanchett. This is my understanding."

Your closing sentences above, Mr. Gannett, make more sense to me than anything else that has been so far posted. I have been friends with Bill Hanchett for over thirty years. We correspond very little now because of his advanced age and ill health, and I don't intend to drag him personally into this thread. However, I will say that I (and others) were very surprised when he "accepted" the Tripp thesis. It was so unlike him.

Your comment makes more sense to me -- he was accepting the idea of considering new angles to the Lincoln story, not putting his stamp of approval on the idea that Lincoln had gay tendencies. (I use that latter word to indicate that I believe his love of Ann, his devotion to Mary, his prowess at producing four sons, and his enjoyment of sexual topics all show proof of his heterosexual preference.)

As for my thoughts on Ann Rutledge: I can easily imagine that they had a thing going (and I don't mean sexual) and that Lincoln was devastated when she died. As a child, he had endured the loss of his mother and sister; and here was another loved one dying on him. It had to dredge up old memories of the previous hurts. I also get the sense that his personal side (outside of the political world) was a kind and caring one and that certain things hurt him deeply. But, life goes on.

It took nearly a decade before he took the plunge with Mary, so he had time to recuperate, judge other young ladies, consider the situation of marriage, and even make a choice to be a life-long bachelor (and maybe a gay one at that!). He chose a heterosexual, committed marriage with Mary Todd that had both good and bad sides to it. The finished product of Lincoln the Man is what matters to me...not the ups and downs that it took to mould him into the President of the United States who served during our country's most difficult time.

Dear L Verge,

Thank you for your comments. You certainly know Prof. Hanchett far better than I. He and I corresponded about the Tripp thesis and Lincoln scholarship, but we didn't discuss his prior views about Lincoln's personal life. How much of a departure the Herald article is, I can't say. But I did get the sense that it was indeed a departure. I hope he's well; I haven't heard from Bill for some time now. In reply to your thoughts about Ann and Mary I don't have much more to say beyond views already expressed. My strong sense is that Lincoln's collapse in New Salem must be taken in the context of the whole town and surrounding area having also more or less collapsed under the brunt of a major epidemic. Not enough well people to take care of the sick, and so on. I think Lincoln cared deeply for Ann and mourned her passing. Bottom line, though: if Elizabeth Abell couldn't confirm a romance, a romance almost surely didn't happen. The Abell house, by the way, stood atop the same bluff below which the Bowling Greens lived a mile or so outside of town, and it was at the Greens' that Lincoln recovered from whatever it was that ailed him. Additionally, Lincoln had been staying at the Abells' when Ann Rutledge died. Elizabeth thus saw a lot of Lincoln during this period. It's significant that apart from the "rain comments," mentioned in the dim above reaches of this thread, Elizabeth had so little to tell Herndon about what was on Lincoln's mind. Ditto for his caretaker Nancy Green (Bowling had died by the time of Herndon's investigation). A final thought about Mary Todd Lincoln. I think she and Lincoln had a genuine, quite valuable partnership. She faltered toward the end of Lincoln's life, but consider the stresses beyond the devastating loss of Willie, all those young Southern cousins dead, gossip in the capital that she was a spy, it's unimaginable. History has not been fair to Mary Lincoln.

Lewis Gannett · 06-28-2014, 05:07 PM

I must back up a bit in my reply to David Lockmiller, who wrote:

Yet, Professor David Herbert Donald states in his Pulitzer Prize winning book Lincoln at page 57: "[Lincoln] told Mrs. Bennett Abell, with whom he was staying, 'that he could not bare [sic] the idea of its raining on her grave.'"

As David says, it is indeed true that Donald, in Lincoln, endorsed the academic revival of the Ann Rutledge story. Absolutely true, and I apologize for casting doubt on David's observation. But there's a major twist here: Donald had changed his mind, and then changed it again. In his very first book, Lincoln's Herndon, his justly celebrated bio of Herndon, he ridiculed the Rutledge story, in Lincoln he reversed himself and accepted the story, and in "We Are Lincoln Men" he once again rejected it. (Incidentally: he gave Tripp partial credit for the final rejection.) Why did Donald go back and forth? That's way too complicated to get into here. The main point is that, after much thinking, David Donald concluded that the Rutledge story didn't happen, and based that conclusion to a large degree on Elizabeth Abell's statement that she knew nothing about a Lincoln/Rutledge love affair.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 06-28-2014 09:12 PM by Gene C.)

(06-28-2014 12:22 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:
Gene wrote, "There's a little more to it than that. Each of the writers you mentioned had more material to examine than their predecesor." Actually, Gene, with regard to the Rutledge story, the evidence really hasn't changed since Herndon corresponded with and interviewed witnesses. You can find almost every last item in the indispensable book Herndon's Informants. A few interviews with some of Ann's sisters appeared independently of Herndon; in my opinion they add very little to the record, mostly because the sisters in question were very young when Ann died. And then we have such finds as the quote in a newspaper article published in 1930, allegedly from Hannah Armstrong's daughter, which asserts that Lincoln "bawled like a baby" after Ann died. If you consider that good evidence I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

Thanks, after looking through John Walsh's "The Shadows Rise" and the 5 plus pages of bibliography, I realized Hendon's Informants was a key reference, but I thought among all the additional references there would be a reasonable amount of additional or new material.

David Lockmiller · 06-28-2014, 09:46 PM

(06-25-2014 12:22 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: One reason for which I personally don't believe A. L. was gay (though who knows) is that most gay men are extremely aware and concerned about their outward appearance, and are less interested in telling and sharing the kind of anecdotes and stories Lincoln enjoyed to tell.

I think that you make two very good points.

Lewis Gannett · 06-28-2014, 10:30 PM

(06-28-2014 09:11 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(06-28-2014 12:22 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote:
Gene wrote, "There's a little more to it than that. Each of the writers you mentioned had more material to examine than their predecesor." Actually, Gene, with regard to the Rutledge story, the evidence really hasn't changed since Herndon corresponded with and interviewed witnesses. You can find almost every last item in the indispensable book Herndon's Informants. A few interviews with some of Ann's sisters appeared independently of Herndon; in my opinion they add very little to the record, mostly because the sisters in question were very young when Ann died. And then we have such finds as the quote in a newspaper article published in 1930, allegedly from Hannah Armstrong's daughter, which asserts that Lincoln "bawled like a baby" after Ann died. If you consider that good evidence I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

Thanks, after looking through John Walsh's "The Shadows Rise" and the 5 plus pages of bibliography, I realized Hendon's Informants was a key reference, but I thought among all the additional references there would be a reasonable amount of additional or new material.

Hi Gene. Herndon's Informants: Letters, Interviews, and Statements about Abraham Lincoln (Douglas L. Wilson & Rodney O. Davis, eds.) appeared in 1998, five years after John Evangelist Walsh published The Shadows Rise: Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge Legend. It therefore doesn't appear in Walsh's bibliography. An edited and annotated compilation of the many scraps of information Herndon collected during his monumental research project into Lincoln's early life, Herndon's Informants is an amazing, indispensable piece of work. It includes the material Herndon used to prepare his 1866 Rutledge lecture, which introduced the Rutledge story to a national audience. This material is just a small fraction of the book's contents. Very little additional primary-source testimony has been added to it since Herndon finished his investigation in the late 1880s. In other words, the primary-source Rutledge evidence isn't that big a file. I mentioned before that a bright high-schooler can read all of it in just a couple of hours. And yet: scholars at different times have examined this small, mostly unchanging body of evidence and from it extracted completely different pictures. Not just somewhat different pictures: totally different pictures. Why is that noteworthy? The Rutledge story's rise, fall, re-rise, and now the possible re-fall (thanks in part to yours truly) offer a case study of the strengths and drawbacks of "oral history," or history based on storytelling traditions as opposed to physical documents (contemporary letters, diaries, court records, county archives, and so on). That's why the Rutledge story really matters. The controversy isn't simply about truths & untruths in Lincoln's biography. It's about the fundamental question of historical method. How important is that? Important enough that any number of Ph.D. theses could & should be written about it. Memo to ambitious grad students: GET BUSY. For all I know dozens of young scholars are working on the subject. I've actually been out of the loop for some years now. But I have a feeling that up & comers in Lincoln world don't realize what an opportunity the Rutledge story offers to make contributions to basic historiography. By the way, I freely admit that I got into this mostly by accident, and that I remain mostly an amateur. But I've been a fortunate amateur. It goes to show: work hard and you never know what might happen. Meantime, let me assure you that I'm not out to make you mad. I'm aiming for much bigger game than you, my friend. Probably I shouldn't be so candid. On the other hand, as Abe would say: honesty really is the best policy.

David Lockmiller · 06-28-2014, 10:54 PM

(06-25-2014 06:51 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: Herndon's work [] has been savagely and unfairly criticized here (among other places).

I very much agree with this statement.

It seems to me that Lincoln had a way of compartmentalizing his world. There was the Herndon portion of his world consisting of the law practice and politics. And, then there was the portion of his world occupied by Mary Todd Lincoln and the children.

Lincoln stopped by the Lincoln and Herndon law office before leaving for Washington DC. Professor Burlingame wrote of this event (Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol One, page 757:

After reminiscing about various cases, Lincoln pointed to the firm's signboard outside the office and said, "Let it hang there undisturbed. Give our clients to understand that the election of a President makes no change in the firm of Lincon and Herndon. If I live I'm coming back some time, and then we'll go right on practicing law as if nothing had ever happened. . . .

As a parting gift, Lincoln offered Herndon his books. Overhearing him, Mary Lincoln sharply asked: "Abraham, are you going to give away everything we have got?" He replied: "Mary, if you will attend to your business, I will attend to mine."

Earlier, Lincoln and Herndon had the following exchange:

Lincoln: "Billy, how long have we been together?"
Herndon: "Over sixteen years."
Lincoln: "We've never had a cross word during all that time, have we?"
Herndon: "No, indeed we have not."

In early April, 1865, "when John Todd Stuart had asked him if he intended to return to the Illinois capital after his presidency, Lincoln replied: 'Mary does not expect ever to go back there, and don't want to go--but I do--I expect to go back and make my home in Springfield for the rest of my life.'" (Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol Two, page 800.)

Lewis Gannett · 06-28-2014, 11:28 PM

(06-28-2014 09:46 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:
(06-25-2014 12:22 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: One reason for which I personally don't believe A. L. was gay (though who knows) is that most gay men are extremely aware and concerned about their outward appearance, and are less interested in telling and sharing the kind of anecdotes and stories Lincoln enjoyed to tell.

I think that you make two very good points.

I missed this comment from Eva until David reposted it. Wow, how to begin. First, I won't get into how gay men supposedly behave and how they supposedly tell jokes. You'd be amazed how many gay guys don't care about clothes, haircuts, shopping, even musicals, all that. But more to the point, I don't really buy the "ugly Lincoln" line. Homely, ill-dressed, bashful, shy, socially graceless Lincoln? OK, sure, he came from the remotest sticks and had to teach himself almost everything. But Lincoln was scarcely a shy guy where it counted: in the rough & tumble world of law and politics. As a rising Springfield lawyer he sometimes pretended to be a simple hick, but what a mistake it was to buy that act. He was incredibly shrewd, a brilliant judge of character, the smartest guy in the room. His legal colleague Leonard Swett wrote Herndon a long letter about Lincoln's at-first-not-obvious smarts. This letter should be required reading for all Lincoln fans. For the benefit of my new friends at Lincoln Forum I'll quote a passage, even it means missing a bite of my movie Sat. nite:

"One great public mistake of his [Lincoln's] character as generally received and acquiesced in:--he is considered by the people of this country as a frank, guileless, unsophisticated man. There never was a greater mistake. Beneath a smooth surface of candor and an apparent declaration of all this thoughts and feelings, he exercised the most exalted tact and the wisest discrimination. He handled and moved man remotely as we do pieces upon a chessboard. He retained through life, all the friends he ever had, and he made the wrath of his enemies to praise him. This was not by cunning, or intrigue in the low acceptation of the term, but by far seeing, reason and discernment. He always told enough only, of his plans and purposes, to induce the belief that he had communicated all; yet he reserved enough, in fact, to have communicated nothing. He told all that was unimportant with a gushing frankness; yet no man ever kept his real purposes more closely, or penetrated the future with his deep designs." Excerpt from a letter from Leonard Swett to William Herndon dated January 17, 1866, Herndon's Informants, p. 168.

To this I'd add, about the famous ugliness. There was a reason Mary Todd went after Lincoln. He was almost unbelievably magnetic. The man had charisma. All that "Aw gosh I don't know which fork to use"--yes, he didn't know, but so what, he entered a room and every last male immediately surrounded him--Herndon writes about this at length--and most of the females wanted to approach, but for the most part couldn't because Lincoln's humor was too darn raunchy. Mary Todd saw this and knew immediately that he was her guy. If anything proves that Mary was no fool, this does. So, how does it fit with Lincoln "acting gay"? It doesn't. All those stereotypes, forget it. Doesn't apply. And that in turn means nothing. So there you go.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 06-29-2014 08:37 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(06-28-2014 11:28 PM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: First, I won't get into how gay men supposedly behave and how they supposedly tell jokes.

I expected that someone would object to the "prejudice" how gay men supposedly behave and how they supposedly tell jokes - despite the "personally" and "though who knows" in my statement. I don't claim to know all gays or a representative number to make this a generally valid argument, and this was not my intention either, I just stated what I nevertheless personally feel from my observations with those I do know.