Lincoln vs Booth mano a mano

[L Verge]

Am I correct to assume that, had the gun misfired, Lincoln would have had to hear the misfire, turn in his seat to see what was happening, then get up and start to wrestle with Booth? To me, that means that at least 5-6 seconds or longer had to go by.

If Booth already had knife in hand, he would have immediately gone for Lincoln's neck I would think and try to hit one of the major arteries or damage the spinal column. With that pig sticker that he carried, he certainly could have struck at least a very serious blow. If he hit a carotid artery, I would think the President would have bled out before any help could come.

[Jim Garrett]

Lincoln would have been taken totally by surprise. The rocker has a pretty low seat, especially for someone 6'4". I don't think it would be easy to "spring" from that rocker. You're kinda fighting the chair to get out of it, low seat, rocking as you try to get out. The box is a very confined area. There would be little room to manuever. Heck, if Lincoln did get up, all Booth would have needed to do is give him a good shove and Lincoln would be over the railing and break his neck in the fall. Booth had the tactical advantage all the way.

[smbovard]

Well Booth was certainly primed and ready to go and very determined. And he had the element of surprise. But still..... it isn't easy to kill a man using a knife (As a better man than Booth ...one Lewis Payne learned). Also Lincoln sitting so low in the rocking chair was not an easy target. Its all a question of angles.

[Liz Rosenthal]

Well, since we're being counter-factual here, we're actually dealing with limitless possibilities.

I mean, what if the Japanese got to Pearl Harbor, only to learn that many of their bombs were duds and that the ones that worked missed most of their intended targets? My answer: The Americans might have sustained moderate, instead of heavy, losses, and been able to beat back the Japanese. Roosevelt would still have asked Congress to declare war on Japan, and Congress would have gladly complied.

What if the U.S. Navy caught wind of the attack a few days early and were ready for the onslaught? My answer: The Japanese would have been completely thwarted and Roosevelt still would have gotten that war declaration.

What if, instead of strafing and bombing Pearl Harbor, the Japanese found themselves attacking the remote Pribilof Islands of Alaska, where the only inhabitants were some seabirds and walruses, and not a battleship in sight? My answer: After some very angry seabirds finished vomiting and pooping on the invaders, the whole world would have been struck with the giggles to such an extent that World War Two just came to an end. The lives of tens of millions were saved. Isn't laughter the best medicine?

So let's examine what the results might have been had Booth's gun misfired. Here's what actually happened:

The gun was just not cooperating. Booth exasperatedly fiddled with the trigger; as he did so, Lincoln heard a noise behind him, and turned, lifting his tall form from the rocker. The villainous actor desperately tried to get a shot off, but, as the President lunged at him, the gun discharged into the floorboards, where the bullet lodged. At just that moment, Lincoln knocked the gun out of the would-be assassin's hands and plunged a fist into the younger man's face. Although Booth had planned to draw a knife on the President, once he sustained the blow, all he managed to do was stumble backwards through the open doorway behind the box and fall hard against the wall, unconscious. A thrilled audience cheered.

Lincoln comforted Mary, who'd been screaming all the while. He said: "Molly, don't cry. Didn't you know I can still whip any man?"

Major Rathbone had fainted at the sight of the blood spurting from Booth's broken nose.

Long story short, Lincoln wasn't assassinated. The conspirators were brought to justice; death sentences were distributed. It was just as well, as Booth's acting career would have come to an embarrassing end with that nasal whine that came out of his mouth during the trial. Lincoln served out the remainder of his second term a huge national hero. Reconstruction succeeded. African-Americans didn't have to wait another hundred years for their civil rights.

[L Verge]

Humor/sarcasm noted. Now, back to the original question.

[Jim Garrett]

(04-22-2013 08:43 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  Well, since we're being counter-factual here, we're actually dealing with limitless possibilities.

I mean, what if the Japanese got to Pearl Harbor, only to learn that many of their bombs were duds and that the ones that worked missed most of their intended targets? My answer: The Americans might have sustained moderate, instead of heavy, losses, and been able to beat back the Japanese. Roosevelt would still have asked Congress to declare war on Japan, and Congress would have gladly complied.

What if the U.S. Navy caught wind of the attack a few days early and were ready for the onslaught? My answer: The Japanese would have been completely thwarted and Roosevelt still would have gotten that war declaration.

What if, instead of strafing and bombing Pearl Harbor, the Japanese found themselves attacking the remote Pribilof Islands of Alaska, where the only inhabitants were some seabirds and walruses, and not a battleship in sight? My answer: After some very angry seabirds finished vomiting and pooping on the invaders, the whole world would have been struck with the giggles to such an extent that World War Two just came to an end. The lives of tens of millions were saved. Isn't laughter the best medicine?

So let's examine what the results might have been had Booth's gun misfired. Here's what actually happened:

The gun was just not cooperating. Booth exasperatedly fiddled with the trigger; as he did so, Lincoln heard a noise behind him, and turned, lifting his tall form from the rocker. The villainous actor desperately tried to get a shot off, but, as the President lunged at him, the gun discharged into the floorboards, where the bullet lodged. At just that moment, Lincoln knocked the gun out of the would-be assassin's hands and plunged a fist into the younger man's face. Although Booth had planned to draw a knife on the President, once he sustained the blow, all he managed to do was stumble backwards through the open doorway behind the box and fall hard against the wall, unconscious. A thrilled audience cheered.

Lincoln comforted Mary, who'd been screaming all the while. He said: "Molly, don't cry. Didn't you know I can still whip any man?"

Major Rathbone had fainted at the sight of the blood spurting from Booth's broken nose.

Long story short, Lincoln wasn't assassinated. The conspirators were brought to justice; death sentences were distributed. It was just as well, as Booth's acting career would have come to an embarrassing end with that nasal whine that came out of his mouth during the trial. Lincoln served out the remainder of his second term a huge national hero. Reconstruction succeeded. African-Americans didn't have to wait another hundred years for their civil rights.

Booth's acting career would have done just fine. His father did pretty well with a broken nose.

[J. Beckert]

(04-22-2013 03:30 PM)J. Beckert Wrote:  I think somewhere I read that upon seeing Booth appear for the second time, Rathbone stood to ask him his business. This would also catch Lincoln's attention. Does anyone else recall that? I know I read that Clara Harris said about one hour before, Booth appeared at the door and made everyone uncomfortable by peering in.

This got lost in the shuffle, but is this familiar to anyone else?

[RJNorton]

Good morning, Joe. That's why I asked if anyone could post the entire interview Clara Harris did with correspondent Emily Pomona Edson Briggs which was published in the Philadelphia Weekly Times on December 29th 1878. Harris talks about Laura Keene not being in the box, etc. Like you, I have also read somewhere about the earlier JWB visit you asked about, and I wonder if it comes from that interview Clara gave in 1878. Maybe yes, maybe no. I have tried to find the entire article online but no luck so far.

[J. Beckert]

Good morning, Roger. I thought it was earlier and if I remember correctly, it was in a newspaper. I think it's important because Clara didn't give a deposition like Rathbone did. I remember she stated that the assassin appeared about "one hour before the commission of the deed".

[RJNorton]

The left side got cut off a little, but I found this statement by Clara Harris in the May 5, 1865, edition of The Public Ledger:

[J. Beckert]

That's it, Roger. It's an early account, so there may be something there. I wonder why no one else reported seeing him twice in the dress circle? With all the eyewitness accounts, she's the only one who mentioned this. I think it's very interesting, but I don't remember hearing Booth attempted to stab Lincoln.

---

This also makes me wonder, if it's true, if Booth encountered Parker the first time. This would explain him having to pass whatever he did to Forbes. Identifying himself a second time to a different person? Seems if he got by once, he may not be questioned a second time.

[Liz Rosenthal]

(04-22-2013 09:37 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 08:43 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  ....
Long story short, Lincoln wasn't assassinated. The conspirators were brought to justice; death sentences were distributed. It was just as well, as Booth's acting career would have come to an embarrassing end with that nasal whine that came out of his mouth during the trial. Lincoln served out the remainder of his second term a huge national hero. Reconstruction succeeded. African-Americans didn't have to wait another hundred years for their civil rights.

Booth's acting career would have done just fine. His father did pretty well with a broken nose.

I don't know, Jim. I have a lot of faith in my fake history sources. I'll have to go with them unless and until they're proven accurate. (Because if they're accurate, then I can no longer rely on them for fake history!)

[RJNorton]

(04-23-2013 09:51 AM)J. Beckert Wrote:  That's it, Roger. It's an early account, so there may be something there. I wonder why no one else reported seeing him twice in the dress circle? With all the eyewitness accounts, she's the only one who mentioned this. I think it's very interesting, but I don't remember hearing Booth attempted to stab Lincoln.

---

This also makes me wonder, if it's true, if Booth encountered Parker the first time. This would explain him having to pass whatever he did to Forbes. Identifying himself a second time to a different person? Seems if he got by once, he may not be questioned a second time.

Joe, I wonder if the historians and authors tend to discount Clara Harris' story. At the moment I cannot think of any assassination books I've read that mention a visit by Booth to the State Box an hour before the shot was fired.

[J. Beckert]

No, it's the only version I've heard of it, but being it was reported so soon, it's hard for me to discount. I thought maybe she confused Hanscom with Booth, but I don't remember if he even entered or passed the dispatch off to Forbes. If he did, he didn't take a "survey of the position of it's occupants" and leave. It's very interesting to me and it looks like it always will be. One thing that came to me the second time I read it is that Clara may have confused Booth slashing back at Rathbone as he grabbed his coat with Booth stabbing at Lincoln's face. She stated he was on the "cushioned bruster of the box" when he did.

[L Verge]

This was totally new to me when Joe first mentioned it. I'll try to see if there is anything in the Hall files about it. We also have a Surratt member who has done a lot of research on Clara and Henry. I'll see what he has to say.