Baptist Alley and preservation

[mgambuzza]

Hello. I am new to the board and enjoy reading the posts. I thought it was time for me to join now. I've always had a fascination with the assassination although I'm not sure why. It was a great tragedy but also it is a great story. I visited the DC sites many times and retraced the steps of JWB by going on the tour hosted by the Surratt House all the way to the Garrett farm site and it was a thrill for me. I hope to do it again soon with my family. Mike Kauffman was a great guide!

Last June I took a side trip to Baptist alley and to my dismay noticed the cobblestones were paved over! Then I went to Chinatown and visited the sad and neglected Surratt Boardinghouse. I would sure like to buy that property and restore it exactly as it was back in 1865.

Anyway, I look forward to some nice discussions in the future.

[BettyO]

Welcome, mgambuzza !

Glad you're here - you will find that we are a very friendly and helpful group!

Have fun!!

[RJNorton]

We all welcome you to the forum, Mike!

Mike, possibly you have seen these photos - Dave Taylor found them awhile back. Click on the thumbnails to enlarge the photos here.

[Rob Wick]

Welcome, Mike. Glad you are here.

Best
Rob

[asobbingfilm]

Welcome !!! I'm certain that the amount of money needed to buy out and relocate the restaurant and do the restoration is astronomical. Ive always said if I win the lottery that I would try. Very touchy subject. Im not sure the current owners know just how important a relic they occupy is. (Or maybe they do). In any case do what I do every time I go to DC. Go to the Wok and Roll sit at the table in the window order the hot and sour soup and the orange chicken (very good BTW) and be satisfied knowing that you ate a meal at the same place more or less that Mary Surrat and other conspirators did. Sadly it may be the best you can do. If I do win the lottery and buy the place out I will have everyone over for THE party of the century when I reopen it as Mary Surratts Bar and Grille (just kidding, I will call it Mary Surratts Boarding House, think of what I could charge as a BnB).

[mgambuzza]

(02-13-2013 03:23 PM)asobbingfilm Wrote:  Welcome !!! I'm certain that the amount of money needed to buy out and relocate the restaurant and do the restoration is astronomical. Ive always said if I win the lottery that I would try. Very touchy subject. Im not sure the current owners know just how important a relic they occupy is. (Or maybe they do). In any case do what I do every time I go to DC. Go to the Wok and Roll sit at the table in the window order the hot and sour soup and the orange chicken (very good BTW) and be satisfied knowing that you ate a meal at the same place more or less that Mary Surrat and other conspirators did. Sadly it may be the best you can do. If I do win the lottery and buy the place out I will have everyone over for THE party of the century when I reopen it as Mary Surratts Bar and Grille (just kidding, I will call it Mary Surratts Boarding House, think of what I could charge as a BnB).

Well I hope you do win and use some of the money that way. I'm not really sure why this is a touchy subject since we have other assassination sites well preserved. Granted, it is owned by a private party but everyone has their price. I figure that the building can be bought for maybe $2 Million and maybe another $1 Million in renovation?

By today's standards, not too much money but it is a shame that the second floor was knocked out. It's not a money making opportunity I know, but I'm almost sure money can be raised to restore it to a museum or something like that for future generations. We have the Lizzie Bordon house in Fall River MA in my state and that museum does quite well. People do have a fascination with this stuff and once it's gone, it's gone.

I wonder if Robert Redford has seen the property when he was working on the movie.

Best

Mike

[asobbingfilm]

True everyone has their price but you are overlooking the fact that that is their family business and IMHO $3million for purchase, relocation and restoration is probably very low considering the real estate and labor markets in DC. I would think the restoration alone might be 3-4 million (to really do it right). You are going to have to purchase the building AND relocate them as that is their cash cow. The Wok and Roll is a very hot spot in Chinatown, try getting a table during the lunch rush. Where would you move them? Spaces in DC are at a premium if you can find them. I would love to see them sell out but as you say if it can be done for 3 million, it probably would have already happened. Laurie Verge and others might have some thoughts on this so stay tuned to the thread. My guess is you are talking 10 million minimum with a capital M in minimum. A true historical restoration might present current bld code issues too, but Im no expert on that subject.

[L Verge]

Mike and I have already exchanged e-mails on his dream, and I'm afraid that I was pessimistic also. First of all, there has been a great deal of money spent on revitalizing Chinatown ever since the big Verizon Center arena went in down the street. That has driven up the real estate costs tremendously. And, with the wide push for cultural diversity now, there would be a definite fight to preserve the Oriental flavor (sorry, bad pun) of the building since it is surrounded by similar buildings and restaurants.

An investor would have a very difficult running the maze of D.C. government, which exists at the whim of the U.S. government. The acquisition process and permits alone would be a killer, IMO.

Finally, you would need the blessing of the NPS and the Interior Department to get it even on the National Registry of Historic Places. Surratt House has been on the Registry since 1976. However, twice in the past twenty years, we have tried to climb the ladder to be declared a National Landmark. Both times, we have been rejected with words that mainly said that Ford's Theatre and the Petersen House are all that are needed to remind people of the horrible assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

---

I forgot to add that it will take very deep pockets to maintain a museum without a broad-based support system. If privately run, it would require a hefty endowment of millions of dollars - and museums that are properly run do not touch their endowments; they operate off the interest that the endowments provide as well as grants and donations.

Frankly, I would not work for a museum that did not have a tax-based government organization behind it to pay salaries, maintenance, phone bills, electric bills, HVAC bills, security, real estate taxes, and the like.

---

Note to David - I almost screamed the day I walked out the back door of Ford's and found my beloved cobblestones were gone, along with the smell of an alley. Call me stupid, but the decay of Baptist Alley was part of the charm of the story. When you walked up those cobblestone pathways and smelled the filth, it gave you a great sense of what the alley was like in 1865. You know there had to be tobacco spittle and human waste out that back door in a time when cleanliness was not necessarily next to godliness.

History is not always just the printed word - it needs to play on the senses also. That's when the human element really kicks in and brings past events to light.

I also have to relate one story about the alley. About ten years ago, I was the last one out the stage door on a Surratt Booth Tour. I exited to see our group standing around the narrator, and out of the corner of my eye, I see four young "gentlemen" of the neighborhood conducting some kind of transaction off to the side. As we continued to talk to the group, these men started walking towards us. My school teacher instincts stepped in, and I quietly moved so that I was between the men and the group. Believe it or not, these four started listening to the narrator, and as the group walked up the alley, the young men started asking me questions. I answered as nicely as I could while slowly walking toward the group. At one point, I knew the group would make a left-hand turn, and I would be left alone in that alley with my new students. I finally excused myself and hustled to catch up. However, I truly felt like we had made a slight dent in those guys' tough exterior that day. I have often hoped that they did a little more educating of themselves on the story of Mr. Lincoln and his murder.

[Jim Garrett]

One more welcome for mgambuzza. At least the rats that inhabit Baptist Alley today, are the direct descendants from those in 1865 (insert laugh track here). In the 1860s, the Harvey & Marr undertaking establishment was located in the Atlantic Building (long gone) on F St. The building was deeper into the alley than the adjacent building and formed a T. The Harvey & Marr receiving door was opposite the back door of Ford's. It was through that door that they brought JWB through when he was being prepared for re-interment in Green Mount.

Two Saturdays ago, Jim Page and I had lunch at the Wok N Roll. If you step back and ignore some of the facades, the buildings on either side of the Surratt bording house also date to the 1860s. Likewise, the rats in the alley behind Surratt's are also direct descendants. :0

[Jim Page]

(02-13-2013 08:38 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Two Saturdays ago, Jim Page and I had lunch at the Wok N Roll . . .

That was a heck of a lot of fun, wasn't it, Jim?!?!?! Mr. Garrett is one heck of a guide!

My daughter did part of her degree work on the rising values of the land in that part of DC, and it is indeed much pricier than it used to be. Still, I've often wondered if someone like Bill Gates or Steven Spielberg could be convinced to back the restoration of that Surratt Boardinghouse, and also spring for the place next door as a museum site. It could be an amazing tool for getting young folks engaged in what brought us to this place in the historic continuum.

I'm beginning to suspect, after Jim and I discussed this at our lunch, that the upper floors of that building may not be as changed as I had initially heard. Jim and I tried to get a snap photo of the inside of the door to the upper levels when a resident opened the side door, but I ain't as quick with my Nikon as I used to be, darn it!!! The fellow was through that door like a flash (no pun intended).

--Jim

[Jim Garrett]

Nothing better than two middle-aged Jim's wandering around Chinatown slurping egg drop soup!

[Jim Page]

(02-13-2013 09:00 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Nothing better than two middle-aged Jim's wandering around Chinatown slurping egg drop soup!

Ha! Yeah, we were quite the spiffy pair as we discussed the events of the past!

I did manage to find, in a small niche between a couple of bricks of the outer wall, a daguerreotype of what may well be one of the folks who frequented the Surratt Boardinghouse back in 1865. There seems to be a sinister quality in this gentleman's countenance, but that might just be my imagination.



--Jim

[L Verge]

Be careful, Mr. Garrett, you look somewhat like the vagrants that used to panhandle near the restaurant years ago. I remember being there with a group of friends in the early-90s. One asked for a doggy-bag to take home her leftovers. Once outside, we were approached by one of the panhandlers begging for money. She innocently handed him her bag of food and had it thrown on the ground. He wanted nothing to do with nourishment; I suspect he wanted more liquid refreshment.

As for trying to see what is on the upper floors, that has always been a well-kept secret. Back in the days when it was a Chinese grocery store, we suspected that there was either an opium den or a numbers racket going on up there. One day, Betty and I dared each other to make a run for the door and up the stairs. We both chickened out.

[Jim Page]

(02-13-2013 09:34 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Be careful, Mr. Garrett, you look somewhat like the vagrants that used to panhandle near the restaurant years ago.

Hey, Jim! Laurie may have the explanation as to why folks kept handing us spare change that day!!!

--Jim

[J. Beckert]

Welcome, Mike. There's a lot of knowledge and fun here. I hope you enjoy it.

I can't imagine the cobblestones were original to 1865, were they? The old photos look like it was a dirt alley, like 10th. St. was. Does anyone know?