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antiquefinder · 12-12-2012, 11:54 AM

I have read so many different stories regarding the relationship of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln. Some have said they loved each other and got along well, while others have said they had a terrible relationship. What do you think? I have read numerous stories of Mary being abusive to Abe. If this is true, why did Abe stay around? Was divorce not heard of in those days? I'm curious as to whether Abe really loved Mary or just put up with her and felt stuck? Any stories or thoughts?

Laurie Verge · 12-12-2012, 01:30 PM

The first thing I would recommend is a new book entitled The Mary Lincoln Enigma. It's a series of essays that covers so many facets of Mary and her relationships with nearly everyone. It is excellent. We have also debated some of this in previous threads here, so you might want to skim over some of our old postings

That said, my personal opinion is that Abe and Mary had a love match that worked for them. This may sound silly, but I see Lincoln as a person who understood and accepted various personalities. I think that he appreciated Mary's knowledge and her upper-class social skills and that he could learn from her and communicate on the same basic level.

I also believe that, over the years, he watched her temperment deteriorate and adjusted his responses to her words and actions accordingly. He took his wedding vows seriously. Divorce was possible, but definitely a social no-no.

On the part of Abe, I think love, patience, and understanding were key to his surviving his marriage. I think his frequent absences hurt Mary, but probably helped him in coping. Along the same lines, however, he must have realized the effect that his traveling had on her and compensated with being kinder to her.

As for Mary, I think she loved him deeply and also accepted his emotional eccentricities. Both of them compromised to make things work - and their children were the glue that held the frazzled ends together.

RJNorton · 12-12-2012, 01:51 PM

Laurie describes the complexities of the relationship very well. Gloria, author Catherine Clinton has a fairly lengthy article that touches on many of your questions here.

I think Catherine Clinton's first sentence is very telling: "The puzzle of Mary Lincoln's relationship with her husband continues to fascinate and indeed perplex many, if not most, Lincoln scholars."

Gloria, you have a lot of company in trying to figure things out.

GARY POPOLO · 12-12-2012, 04:12 PM

Hello all! Hope everyone is doing well and getting into the holiday mood! My thoughts on this marriage is alot like everyone else. Most books I have read give almost the same description of their relationship. I have read about Mary's temperment and how she is said to have thrown things at Lincoln. And how she sometimes felt unappreciated by him. Also I believe that his relationship with his boys at times appravated her. He was a very lenient parent. But I also feel for Mary because she had to deal with Lincoln's melancholy and also being alone to raise their boys during Lincoln's absence for months during his early days becoming a lawyer and having to travel the circuit from town to town. Also I know a number of couples that would compare to Mary & Lincoln and are still together. I am sure all of us know of these types of people and some may be are close friends. Lastly my next book I plan to purchase is The Mary Lincoln Enigna. I have heard good things about the book.
Have a good day my friends

Laurie Verge · 12-12-2012, 05:18 PM

Hint: Surratt House Museum sells the Mary Lincoln Enigma in our gift shop...

Gene C · 12-12-2012, 06:42 PM

An interesting book is "The Lincolns - Portrait of a Marriage" by Daniel Mark Epstein.

I've read it, it's interesting, but there are a few things in it I didn't agree with. Mr. Epstein makes the argument that Lincoln may have had a STD, and that's the reason for the on and off again relation ship with Mary, and his hesitancy about marriage. I didn't buy into his reasoning on this. Other than that it was pretty interesting.

antiquefinder · (This post was last modified: 12-12-2012 10:55 PM by antiquefinder.)

(12-12-2012 06:42 PM)G ene C Wrote: An interesting book is "The Lincolns - Portrait of a Marriage" by Daniel Mark Epstein.

I've read it, it's interesting, but there are a few things in it I didn't agree with. Mr. Epstein makes the argument that Lincoln may have had a STD, and that's the reason for the on and off again relation ship with Mary, and his hesitancy about marriage. I didn't buy into his reasoning on this. Other than that it was pretty interesting.

Gene C.- that's funny that you mentioned Abe's std. I have heard a few times that Abe told Herndon that he once had syphillis and was treated with mercury. Then allegedly Abe passed the disease on to Mary and that is why she was the way she was. I wonder if that could have been possible?

(12-12-2012 01:51 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Laurie describes the complexities of the relationship very well. Gloria, author Catherine Clinton has a fairly lengthy article that touches on many of your questions here.

I think Catherine Clinton's first sentence is very telling: "The puzzle of Mary Lincoln's relationship with her husband continues to fascinate and indeed perplex many, if not most, Lincoln scholars."

Gloria, you have a lot of company in trying to figure things out.

Roger- I just finished reading the article on their marriage and I guess we will never know the truth. What went on behind closed doors will stay there unless the four walls start talking. Wink

RJNorton · 12-13-2012, 05:09 AM

Speaking of Catherine Clintion....I have mentioned this in other threads, but the most interesting statement I find in Catherine Clinton's entire book is that Abraham Lincoln carried a pistol with him to Ford's Theatre. I cannot think of another book that says that (at least that I recall). For some reason I find it intriguing that Abraham may have been "packin heat" (although it would not have done any good given the circumstances of the assassination). I hope in future years more information on this possibility will be published.

LincolnMan · 12-13-2012, 08:33 AM

Wasn't the "STD theory" ruled out by someone?

RJNorton · 12-13-2012, 08:58 AM

Not by Gore Vidal.

Mike B. · 12-13-2012, 07:08 PM

I would be careful about using the Epstein book. There are quite a lot of assertions in that book, and the sources provided do not back them up.

For example, Epstein claims that Lincoln may have been trying to commit suicide at Fort Stevens at Jubal Early's invasion. If you read what Lincoln was writing that day, suicide was the last thing on his mind as he was attempting to rally the troops and have his generals act aggressively.

Yet Epstein goes on for quite a bit about in a dramatic fashion on this. In short, the book shoots for the sensational.

RJNorton · 12-14-2012, 05:59 AM

In another thread we found another error in Epstein's book. He says Grant did not accompany Mary Lincoln to see the Grand Illumination on the night of April 13th, but due to the wonderful research of Linda Anderson, we discovered that Epstein was wrong.

Gene C · 12-14-2012, 08:01 AM

Thanks for the info about the Epstein book. I knew there were things in it that were in error, but you've pointed out some more that I overlooked.

LincolnMan · 12-20-2012, 11:08 AM

Well, the Lincoln's loved each other, don't you think? I think they did-in their own way. And as couples do-they tolerated each other also. I think it was at President Lincoln's Cottage that he had greeted guests in his nightwear. Mary must have been aghast! At the same time, he asked for Mary's permission to return to the Executive Mansion. I think their relationship was partly like the one portrayed between grandpa and grandma Walton on the TV series The Waltons. Remember how they would verbally carry on with each other. She would say: "You old fool!" And he would tease her with some return remark. Yet, the viewer knew that they really loved each other.

Donna McCreary · 12-23-2012, 10:55 PM

(12-20-2012 11:08 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: Well, the Lincoln's loved each other, don't you think? I think they did-in their own way. And as couples do-they tolerated each other also. I think it was at President Lincoln's Cottage that he had greeted guests in his nightwear. Mary must have been aghast! At the same time, he asked for Mary's permission to return to the Executive Mansion. I think their relationship was partly like the one portrayed between grandpa and grandma Walton on the TV series The Waltons. Remember how they would verbally carry on with each other. She would say: "You old fool!" And he would tease her with some return remark. Yet, the viewer knew that they really loved each other.

Bill, I love the comparison to Grandma and Grandpa Walton. The Lincoln's did frequently tease one another. One of my favorite stories is the one Elizabeth Grimsley told about the extended family having breakfast at the White House. Lincoln told a story about himself and John Todd Stuart, and the punch line was "Who ever marries a Todd gets the worst of it." Historians have debated the 'truth' behind this quote for years. But when the entire story is read, the reader quickly learns that Lincoln was joking among members of the Todd family, and they were having some fun at the expense of William Wallace (Mary's brother-in-law) that day.