I Have a Few Questions

[L Verge]

Just briefly, Kate: My reference to pious and above-the-fray was not directed at you. It is a term that I use to identify people who feel that their opinion(s) are the only true tenets and are above reproach. I tend to shy away from people who don't consider all sides of an issue and who make one, flat statement and refuse to budge from that position.

I suspect that you and I may get along fine.

[My Name Is Kate]

I am interested in hearing more about how Jim Crow laws evolved into modern-day liberalism and the welfare society, if that isn't beyond the scope of this thread and this forum. And did LBJ's "Great Society" have something to do with that too?

[Rob Wick]

If you remember, Laurie, it was the North in the Northwest Ordinance that prohibited slavery from existing in that region. Slavery existed in the North but it was not the economic basis for the region, as it was for the South and it was allowed to die a natural death.

No one is saying that one side is blameless and the other is horrible. No serious historian believes or teaches that. However, we are talking about two very different things here. Racism and slavery.

Racism was, and still is, prevalent in all aspects of society. Northerners were as unashamedly racist as were Southerners as were Westerners, etc. However, it was only Southerners who clung to the system of slavery until the war forced it out of existence. It was Southerners who were willing to disband the Union due to their irrational fear that Lincoln was going to try to end it's existence, even though he said so many times that he had no constitutional power to do so.

Every secession document at the time pointed to Southern fear that the North planned to eradicate slavery. It was only after losing the war that Alexander Stephens and Jefferson Davis (and later Jubal Early) tried to take slavery out of the equation.

I'm through discussing this topic. I will change no one's mind and no one will change mine. I've got work to do.

Best
Rob

[L Verge]

Kate,

In response to your question about the Jim Crow laws, LBJ's Great Society, etc.: My personal opinion is that every generation (or even decade) has seen political, social, and economic policies that have fostered the looming welfare state.

I'm not dismissing this lightly, but my dear mother lived to be just shy of 95 before her death three years ago. To her dying day, she still blamed Eleanor Roosevelt for a lot of things! And my mother was a product of the Depression era and a life-long Democrat. I remember coming home with my new college degree in 1965 with a very liberal outlook on many issues. Her comment was, "Just wait, you'll learn to see things differently and view people for what they truly are."

[Hess1865]

"If slavery isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong"-Abraham Lincoln

[MaddieM]

(11-22-2012 07:42 PM)Hess1865 Wrote:  "If slavery isn't wrong, then nothing is wrong"-Abraham Lincoln

I always wonder at such statements... given the treatment and plight of the Native Americans. Lincoln hanged some, didn't he? Or was that deemed justified?

[Gene C]

Check post #5-11, Inner Life of Abraham Lincoln 1869, under Abraham Lincoln's Legacy

http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...ht=indians

[My Name Is Kate]

(11-22-2012 12:16 PM)Mark MacKenzie Wrote:  To say that the North did not want black people integrated again is not true. We tend to speculate how people felt beyond actually proof. The proof is the legislation. Slavery was not legal in the North. Not legal.

Slavery in the North was illegal, but racism wasn't. In fact, it was encouraged.

I'm still wondering how the antagonism between the North and South developed, and why the North seemed to want to demonize the South over the slavery issue, when the North had its own slavery past. I say "seemed" because I really don't have any facts, just things I've read on this board, and things I've heard.

[L Verge]

Slavery slowly became illegal in the North, pretty much on a state-by-state basis after 1800 for a variety of reasons - one of which hung primarily on the fact that it was no longer profitable once the slave trade had been declared illegal .

Kate - The only advice that I can give is to start reading anything and everything you can get your hands on. Compare and contrast viewpoints Study the political, economic, social, and religious factors of American life and European influence over the first two hundred years. Also, try to put yourself in the mindset of Americans from the various sectors of our country during the changing decades. I guarantee that will keep you busy until the 200th anniversary of the Civil War - and you probably will still not have reached a definitive answer.

[Craig Hipkins]

I believe that racism was just as prevalant in the north as it was in the south (This statement coming from a Massachusetts yankee). The Roxbury riots would be a good example of northern racism. That being said, I will have to side with Rob on this one. If I were given the choice of being an African slave living in South Carolina circa 1830, or a Massachusetts factory worker circa 1830, I wouldn't even bat an eyelash. I agree, that an empty belly would keep most people working in the factories but at least they had the opportunity to advance themselves. An African slave did not have that opportunity. There are plenty of rags to riches stories. My great-great grandfather started out working in a shoe factory in Worcester County, Massachusetts when he was a young boy in the mid to late 1840s. Eventually, he learned the business and struck out on his own. Although he was no Andrew Carnegie or John D. Rockefeller, he was able to purchase his own house and made a comfortable income for himself and his family.

Craig

[Rob Wick]

The United States Constitution forbid the importation of slaves in 1808.

Northern states timeline of either banning slavery or beginning the abolition process:

1777: Constitution of the Vermont Republic bans slavery.
1783: Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court rules slavery illegal based on 1780 state constitution. All slaves are immediately freed.
1783: New Hampshire begins a gradual abolition of slavery.
1784: Connecticut begins a gradual aboliton of slavery, freeing future children of slaves, and later all slaves.
1784: Rhode Island begins a gradual abolition of slavery.
The United States in Congress Assembled passed the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 outlawing any new slavery in the Northwest Territories.
1799: New York State passes gradual emancipation act freeing future children of slaves, and all slaves in 1827.
1804: New Jersey begins a gradual abolition of slavery, freeing future children of slaves. Those born prior to the Act remain enslaved for life.

Best
Rob

[Craig Hipkins]

Good information Rob.

Craig

[Mark MacKenzie]

And the war came.

Kate, I like Lincoln. I think reading Lincoln gives me an understanding of the times. Lincoln's second inaugural address ponders the guilt of the Union regarding slavery. I think he would readily agree that the history of slavery rests on everyone's shoulders.
Lincoln's first inaugural address tries to assure the south that he, or rather the Union, would not wage war unless the South provokes it by drawing first blood.

" I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." Lincoln

(This deserves to be read over and over until completely understood. I encourage anyone to read Lincoln.)

So, of course, the war was not started to abolish slavery. And the righteousness of many LOUDMOUTHS in the North was matched by the indignation of many LOUDMOUTHS in the South. You can't say all Northerners encouraged racism. Its simply not true. You can't say all Southerners are racists. Simply not true.

But the war did come. Lines were drawn that exist today. The South. The North. Yankees. Rebels. I don't believe you can refer to either as one person, one mind. To say the North felt one way is a gross broad stroke. To say the South felt another way is generalizing about a lot of different people. Many good people, many bad people, as today. Many still fight a war that is long over.


My viewpoint on slavery is hard and fast. My abhorrence of taking women without consent is almost on par with whipping a person to death. I believe the morality of slavery was decided long ago. I believe in a difference between morality, (immutable concepts of good and evil that may or may not even be perceived,) and popular morality, (what is popularly acceptable at a certain time.)

My viewpoints are not important. In fact, I feel no responsibility as a teacher might, to influence or change anybody's mind. I come to my feelings through what I read and have read. I grant myself the right to be wrong just as I grant anybody else to be right. I want to keep an open mind.

It is a huge subject. There are great books to read. There are horrible books to read. Good luck.

As to the name calling insults, I have nothing to say.

[L Verge]

Thank you, Mark, for an excellent posting.

---

(11-24-2012 09:46 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  The United States Constitution forbid the importation of slaves in 1808.

Northern states timeline of either banning slavery or beginning the abolition process:

1777: Constitution of the Vermont Republic bans slavery.
1783: Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court rules slavery illegal based on 1780 state constitution. All slaves are immediately freed.
1783: New Hampshire begins a gradual abolition of slavery.
1784: Connecticut begins a gradual aboliton of slavery, freeing future children of slaves, and later all slaves.
1784: Rhode Island begins a gradual abolition of slavery.
The United States in Congress Assembled passed the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 outlawing any new slavery in the Northwest Territories.
1799: New York State passes gradual emancipation act freeing future children of slaves, and all slaves in 1827.
1804: New Jersey begins a gradual abolition of slavery, freeing future children of slaves. Those born prior to the Act remain enslaved for life.

Best
Rob

And three key words here are "begins," "gradual," and "new" (the latter in context of the Northwest Ordinance, which still allowed slavery to exist at the time of its passing).

[Rob Wick]

Actually, what it shows is that the process began long before 1808.

Best
Rob