The New York Crowd

[JMadonna]

Does anyone know of any work done to identify who was part of the 'New York Crowd' that was going to kill Lincoln if JWB didn't?

Who were some of the anti-lincoln people in the state?

[RJNorton]

Jerry, I have not spent much time with Charles Higham's Murdering Mr. Lincoln, but he mentioned a lot of names in his book, some of whom were New Yorkers. I can't list them all, but the name Fernando Wood comes to mind immediately.

[Bill Richter]

The only one to look at it in depth was Richard Stelnick and he identified it as a group of old Dutch residents of NYC who traced their ancestry back to New Amsterdam, primarily through the DeMille family of 20th century movie fame. What has happened to his book Dixie Reckoning is a mystery as it was supposed to have been out a year ago. I still have the original text somewhere around here.

[Laurie Verge]

One recent person has done quite a bit of research on the New York Crowd and, I believe, has a publisher interested. I was asked to read it several years ago, but I also signed a confidentiality agreement and cannot discuss details. Much of the work was supposedly drawn from private papers still in the hands of descendants, but I have no evidence other than the author's word that such papers exist. (However, read Bill's comment above.)

There is no reason that others cannot do their own research, and I feel that it is a worthy topic to pursue. My gut has always told me to start with investigating New York mayor Fernando Wood. He was not the focus of the previously mentioned work - and I have no intentions of ever publishing (except an expose on people I have dealt with over the years! Just kidding.). He seems like a likely candidate to be a trouble-maker, however. Have fun and someone let me know what you dig up. Hint, hint, Jerry...

[John Stanton]

It is hard for me to believe that such a group existed, so I am reluctant to waste time and attempt to do a search. However, that Fernando Wood guy (Mayor of NYC) was involved with trying to get NYC to secede from The State and become an independent city, so that merchants would be able to deal directly with the Confederacy. That plan is known to have existed. It had to be a broad based plan with many people involved. Would it be of interest to all of us, to work together to use this forum as a repository for any and all info that we do know, to determine whether or not we should make a big push? As a starter; After Booth's attempt to abduct Lincoln failed, Booth took off for NYC, Mar. 17th +/-. Some say it was "Woman" problems, would that take a weeK? In this same time frame, Watson sent the Msg to Surratt to come "up here" and gave the Water Street address. Surratt didn't go. Then about Mar. 25, +/- Booth shows up in D.C. with Sarah Slater. (Thus linking Booth, Surratt, Slater, Watson to the Water Street address.). I'm begining to accept that Water Street was the HQ, of this Rebel Group. (Also a Demille (Spell?)
site.) Be carefull of Google, one author has written A Google story, and then used it as a cite for his conclusions. We would have to study the Copperhead movement, and the Mozart Hall "Crowd", and other political/industrial "machine" type organizations. This subject would take us all working together to unravel. Watcha think?

[JMadonna]

Thanks for your suggestions. I know Wood, inventor Samuel Morse and August Belmont were known 'peace' Democrats. I'm betting that the 'NY Crowd' refers to a state organization rather than strictly the city itself. It probably had very close ties with George Nichols and the Confederate spy ring across the Niagara river.

Here are some items I've gleaned.

From NY Times archives;
THE CONSPIRACY.; PROPOSED NORTHWESTERN CONFEDERACY The Order of "American Knights." SECRET DOINGS OF NORTHEIM TRAITORS. The Name of Vallandigham and Many Others Connected with the Affair.

Published: July 29, 1864

- A meeting of the Grand Commanders of the different States was held in the City of New-York, on the 22d day of February, for the purpose of organizing an out-break on the 10th of March, the day fixed for the draft to take place, but no definite plan was agreed upon.
- Among those in attendance at this conference were the Grand Commander in New-York

- The order in New-York is called the "MCCLELLAN Minute Men,"

Then I Found this letter from;

Headquarters Department of the Missouri,

June 22, 1864
His Excellency the President of the United States:

Since Major Hay^s departure, bearing my letter about the secret
conspiracy we have been tracing out, we have added much informa-
tion of its Southern connections, operations, uses, and intentions.
[undefined=undefined]We have also found a new element m its workings, under the name
of McClellan minutemen.[/undefined] The evident extent and anti-national
purposes of this great conspiracy compel me to. urge the considera-
tion of what bught to be done to anticipate its workings and pre-
vent the mischief it is capable of producing aijain upon your atten-
tion. Therefore I have sent the report of Colonel Sanderson, with
the details of evidence, covering 1,000 pages of foolscap, by himself,
to be carried or forwarded to you by safe hands. That report and
its accompanying papers show :

First. That there exists an oath-bound secret society, under vari-
ous names, but forming one brotherhood, both in the rebel and loyal
States, the objects of which are the overthrow of the existing na-
tional Government and the dismemberment of this nation.

Second. That the secret oaths bind these conspirators to revolution
and all its consequences of murder, arson, pillage, and an untold train of crime, including assassination and perjury, under the penalty of death to the disobedient or recusant.

Third. That they intend to operate in coniunction with rebel
movements this summer to revolutionize the loyal States if they
can.

Fourth. That Vallandigham is the supreme commander of the
Northern wing of this society, and General Price, of the rebel Army,
the supreme commander of the Southern wing of the organization ;
and that Vallandigham's return was a part of the programme, well
understood both Worth and South, by which the revolution they
proposed was to be inaugurated.

Fifth. That this association is now and has been the principal
agency by which spying and supplying rebels with means of war are
carried on between the loyal and rebel States, [undefined=undefined]and that even some
of our officers are engaged in it. [/undefined]

Sixth. That they claim to have 25,000 members in Missouri, 140,000
in Illinois, 100,000 in Indiana, 80,000 in Ohio, 70,000 in Kentucky,
and that they are extending through New York, New Jersey, Penn-
sylvania, Delaware, and Maryland.

Besides which prominent and general facts, tlie names of members,
mode of operating, and other details appear fully, showing what a
formidable power and what agencies for mischief we have to deal
with.


--- Anyone know where to look for the details of this report which supposedly gives the names of the members?

[L Verge]

David Keehn might. He's the gentleman who spoke at last year's Surratt conference on the Knights of the Golden Circle. His book is due out soon, and he has been asked to do signings at the 2013 conference. I read his work while still in manuscript form, and it was very good.

Many historians have written off the KGC as being nothing much from the beginning and fading away when the war began. David found a lot to refute this. And, if I remember correctly, its influence did not just extend to the south and west. He did find that Michael O'Laughlen's older brother was a member of the Baltimore group, and he was looking for concrete evidence that Booth was also a member there. William O'Laughlen and Booth were childhood friends, and Michael was the baby brother who tagged along.

Herb needs to chime in because I know that he has done a lot of research on dissidents in northwestern New York.

P.S. The only caution I would give about using this forum publically to share extensive research and knowledge is that there are pseudo-historians out there who will let y'all do the work and then take your information and run with it into publication.

[L Verge]

Jerry,

This is totally unrelated to the NY Crowd, but for some reason, while reading your posting, I happened to look at your avatar and something freaky occurred. Right underneath the chin area, there is actually a side view of another face looking to the left -- and it looks a lot like JWB. The person's forehead is actually "your" chin.

I know it's Friday night, but I have not been drinking anything but water and am not hallucinating. Can anyone else see the same thing? Did you overlay another photo to see how long someone would take to notice it? Am I crazy and demented? Wait a minute don't answer that last question!

[Rsmyth]

I see it too Laurie.

[Gene C]

Jerry, I just noted the extra "face" on your avitar too!

As a seperate note, just got back from the Lincoln movie and they had a preview for a new Lone Ranger movie, maybe it's time to bring back Clayton Moore.

I think Ray Neff in his book Dark Union, mentioned cotton speculators from the NY financial markets being very unhappy with Lincoln.

[J. Beckert]

Whoa! I see it too! That's weird. It looks like he has a black coat on and I think I see a gun in his pocket too, Jerry.

[BettyO]

I see it....yes - you're right Laurie! There is what appears to be "2nd face" under the chin of Jerry's Avatar.... WEIRD!!

[Rsmyth]

Joe, is it a derringer or a pistol? Look closely, it is important,

[JMadonna]

Dang! you guys are good!!

You're all crazy .... but good!

[L Verge]

Crazy is what makes the world go round nowadays, Jerry.