The 1841 Abraham Lincoln Wedding Gift That Mary Never Saw

[Anita]

This watch is soon to be auctioned by Heritage Auctions. It tells quite a story about Lincoln's engagement breakup to Mary and other false history.

https://historical.ha.com/itm/political/...ion-071515

[Steve]

According to the description, the watch was auctioned 15 years ago.

Anita, do you think the watch and letter are forgeries?

[RJNorton]

This watch was previously discussed in 2017 here:

https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussi...ry+Todd%22

The story of the watch seems unlikely to me, although anything's possible.

[Anita]

(07-29-2021 03:31 PM)Steve Wrote:  According to the description, the watch was auctioned 15 years ago.

Anita, do you think the watch and letter are forgeries?

(07-29-2021 03:31 PM)Steve Wrote:  According to the description, the watch was auctioned 15 years ago.

Anita, do you think the watch and letter are forgeries?

Steve, this is from the auction description. "...Still, it is true, the chain goes back "only" to 1872. There is no direct, contemporary documentation, but there is no reason to presume that there should or would be. To doubt the veracity of this item, one must presume that Mary Curtis deliberately had the watch fraudulently engraved, and she would certainly seem to lack any motive to do so, inasmuch as she gave the watch away." Go to the site for the complete description and supporting documents. https://historical.ha.com/itm/political/...il-052317#

1. The is no credible documentation BEFORE 1872. Where is Lincoln's payment receipt, the name of the jeweler, anyone he told that he purchased the watch, and proof he knew Mary Curtis? We have a letter from Mary Curtis. Did she write it, I don't know.

2. Even if it can be shown that Lincoln knew Mary Curtis, what is known about Elizabeth Cob DeWitt who supposedly received the watch from Mary Curtis. DeWitt benefited from the sale of the watch. The newspaper article on the auction site says DeWitt kept the watch until 1932 when she fell on hard time and had to sell it. Yet the letter from Dewitt about her sale of the watch, in her writing is dated 1870.

So it's an interesting story but as always, "caveat emptor." $71,700 with buyers premium is a lot of $$$.

[RJNorton]

How much would a watch like that cost in 1841? Lincoln assumed William Berry's debt in 1835, and he was still in debt from this in 1841. As I recall, he didn't finish paying the "national debt" (as he called it) off until later in the 1840s. As far as I know, there is no record of Lincoln purchasing this watch from Chatterton's jewelry store (which is where I believe he would have purchased it IF he really did).

[Anita]

I agree Roger.

This woodcut shows the Hill & McNamar Store and the Lincoln & Berry Store in New Salem. The two stores were competitors. In 1829 Samuel Hill and John McNamar built the first general store in New Salem. In 1832 Abraham Lincoln and William Berry bought a general store from the Herndon brothers and went into business as the Lincoln & Berry Store. In April 1833, Lincoln sold his share to Berry, who let the store “wink out.” Berry died in 1835, and Lincoln had to assume the entire store debt. Lincoln finished paying off what he called “the national debt” in 1848. https://lincolncollection.tumblr.com/pos...f-paul-von

I'm looking for other sources but I'm short on time.

[Steve]

Firstly, I have to admit when I first posed the question to Anita I thought/misremembered the letter had been written by Mary Todd Lincoln, not "Mary Curtis". That's why I phrased the question the way I did.

I want to point out that the auction house didn't mention trying to date the watch itself. Unfortantely, I can't find "Chrismann Sons & Brown" in a Google search. I'm guessing they were based in Geneva, Switzerland and not Geneva, New York? Dating the watch separately from the inscription should be a must for an auction.

If you look closely, there's no provenance for the watch prior to 1931 when an unnamed old woman dropped it off at a local shop in Washington DC, let alone 1872. This shady background and lack of documentation of provenance can be an indicator of forgery.

The letters written by "Mary Curtis" and "Elizabeth Cob DeWitt", in and of themselves aren't really evidence without some other type of verification. Anyone can inscribe whatever they want on a watch or write out ficticious letters. I've done a search online and on Ancestry.com and can't find a "Mary Curtis" from Louisville that seems to match or any evidence for the existence of "Elizabeth Cob DeWitt" outside of the letters themselves.

On a minor sidenote, Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd broke their engagement on January 1, 1841. Why would the watch be inscribed "1841"? Or, if the watch was to be given later at their wedding why pay to inscribe "Miss Mary Todd" on it especially if they're already supposed to married?

Heritage Auctions says the watch sold for $71,700 in 2006. This news article from 2016 says the watch was for sale at a Baltimore Art, Antique and Jewelry Show for the listed price of $175,000:

https://www.atimelyperspective.com/found...mary-todd/

[Anita]

Thanks for looking into this Steve. You raise a number of key red flags pointing to misrepresentation and fraud regarding the story of the watch's history and provenance supporting it.

Excellent sidenote concerning the watch engraving. I didn't pick up on that. I also couldn't locate "Chrismann Sons & Brown."

Steve, I think we'll need to pass bidding on this item.

[Gene C]

This reminds me of a song by Chicago - Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FzCWLOHUes

[RJNorton]

(07-31-2021 06:17 PM)Steve Wrote:  On a minor sidenote, Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd broke their engagement on January 1, 1841. Why would the watch be inscribed "1841"?

William Herndon had claimed that the date set for the marriage was January 1, 1841. Possibly whoever had this particular wording inscribed knew the date Herndon professed?