New Series CNN Lincon:Divided We Stand FEB 14

[Anita]

(03-02-2021 11:12 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(03-01-2021 01:47 PM)Anita Wrote:  Roger, this is from a New York Times article.
For 110 years, the numbers stood as gospel: 618,222 men died in the Civil War, 360,222 from the North and 258,000 from the South — by far the greatest toll of any war in American history.
But new research shows that the numbers were far too low.
By combing through newly digitized census data from the 19th century, J. David Hacker, a demographic historian from Binghamton University in New York, has recalculated the death toll and increased it by more than 20 percent — to 750,000.

Go here to read about the recalculation. https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/03/scien...~:text=For 110 years%2C the numbers,numbers were far too low.

Quote from the article:

With all the uncertainties, Dr. Hacker said, the data suggested that 650,000 to 850,000 men died as a result of the war; he chose the midpoint as his estimate.

He emphasized that his methodology was far from perfect. “Part of me thinks it is just a curiosity,” he said of the new estimate.

The three paragraphs below are from "War by the Numbers" By Harold Holzer https://www.historynet.com/civil-war-casualties

Please note the last paragraph as it relates to your quote.

"The new Civil War death toll numbers have stirred the pot afresh. In reporting the new statistics, the Times, for example, took an unexpected pot shot at veteran historian James M. McPherson, one among countless scholars who have long accepted the earlier 620,000 number. The article called out the dean of the field for using that number “without citing the source in Battle Cry of Freedom, his Pulitzer-winning 1988 history of the war.” The fact that no one else has ever “sourced” the figures did not seem to matter in the new rush to up the gruesome ante.

McPherson, in turn, had a bone to pick with yet another great historian, Mark E. Neely, who once convincingly argued that the Civil War was not a total war in the 20th-century sense. McPherson com­mented that the revised numbers suggest that Neely was wrong after all—for what else but a total war could produce such staggering casualty figures?

What is extraordinary about all this is that we still desperately want to know the truth—the whole truth, and nothing but the precise truth—about the toll of war. We may never find out for certain how many men and women, blacks and whites, native born and foreign born died to save the Union and destroy slavery. But as the new science and the new attention show—thanks to David Hacker, Guy Gugliotta, et al.—more than curiosity is at work here. Hacker put it modestly when he opined that “it is just a curiosity.” In a sobering afterthought, he wisely told Gugliotta and the Times: “It’s our duty to get it right.”

[LincolnMan]

I missed the whole series. Hopefully I will be able to see it along the way in the near future someway.

[Anita]

Bill, if you go here you can listen to the audio of all the episodes to date. https://www.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/linco...cc01762945

Do you get CNN through your cable company or other streaming provider? If yes then you can log on from CNN online to watch the series.

[RJNorton]

Thanks, Anita, for posting that audio link.

For folks with cable, past episodes are available using Xfinity On Demand.

[LincolnMan]

Thanks Anita!

[Mylye2222]

Thanks for posting the audio link as I can't access the videos from Europe. I'm through the first episode right now. The recounting of the horrendous condition of his childhood, particularly his and sister left alone gets me every time. Really, couldn't Thomas either take them with him to Elizabethtown or at least find some neighbors to foster them??????

[RJNorton]

(03-06-2021 12:45 PM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  Thanks for posting the audio link as I can't access the videos from Europe. I'm through the first episode right now. The recounting of the horrendous condition of his childhood, particularly his and sister left alone gets me every time. Really, couldn't Thomas either take them with him to Elizabethtown or at least find some neighbors to foster them??????

Emilie, please see my posts here and here.

I hope that information makes you feel better. In addition, the author writes that Thomas left "with the promise of neighbors to look in on them (Abraham and Sarah).

[Mylye2222]

(03-06-2021 01:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(03-06-2021 12:45 PM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  Thanks for posting the audio link as I can't access the videos from Europe. I'm through the first episode right now. The recounting of the horrendous condition of his childhood, particularly his and sister left alone gets me every time. Really, couldn't Thomas either take them with him to Elizabethtown or at least find some neighbors to foster them??????

Emilie, please see my posts here and here.

I hope that information makes you feel better. In addition, the author writes that Thomas left "with the promise of neighbors to look in on them (Abraham and Sarah).

A little reassuring, but it seems that by the state of the cabin and its occupants Sarah Johnston discovered upon arrival, it may be Dennis had been somewhat overwhelmed by the task assigned to him.

[RJNorton]

In last night's episode Harold Holzer maintained that Abraham Lincoln appeared in person before the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War to defend his wife on charges of disloyalty. Most books I have read agree with Mr. Holzer.

Not everyone agrees, however. In Gerald J. Prokopowicz' Did Lincoln Own Slaves?: And Other Frequently Asked Questions About Abraham Lincoln Prokopowicz calls the story a legend and answers "no" to the question of whether it ever happened.

In Dr. Edward Steers' Lincoln Legends: Myths, Hoaxes, and Confabulations Associated with Our Greatest President the author asks, "Did Lincoln go before the Conduct of War committee?" Steers concludes, "As of this writing, however, the myth remains an orphan, but an interesting one. Lincoln never appeared before the committee."

In 1975 Mark E. Neely, Jr. wrote an article entitled "Abraham Lincoln did NOT Defend His Wife Before the Committee on the Conduct of the War."

[Mylye2222]

(03-08-2021 10:54 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  In last night's episode Harold Holzer maintained that Abraham Lincoln appeared in person before the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War to defend his wife on charges of disloyalty. Most books I have read agree with Mr. Holzer.

Not everyone agrees, however. In Gerald J. Prokopowicz' Did Lincoln Own Slaves?: And Other Frequently Asked Questions About Abraham Lincoln Prokopowicz calls the story a legend and answers "no" to the question of whether it ever happened.

In Dr. Edward Steers' Lincoln Legends: Myths, Hoaxes, and Confabulations Associated with Our Greatest President the author asks, "Did Lincoln go before the Conduct of War committee?" Steers concludes, "As of this writing, however, the myth remains an orphan, but an interesting one. Lincoln never appeared before the committee."

In 1975 Mark E. Neely, Jr. wrote an article entitled "Abraham Lincoln did NOT Defend His Wife Before the Committee on the Conduct of the War."

Seems difficult to believe since a President in office isn't supposed to show up at Capitol, except for his inauguration, the State of the Union (at the time a written Annual Message there read by a clerk), and in case he's nominally summoned to testify, during his impeachment trial?????
That said, would it be possible that Lincoln did wrote a letter to the Committee to clear his wife's name, and then the legend had it romanticized?

[RJNorton]

(03-08-2021 11:36 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  That said, would it be possible that Lincoln did wrote a letter to the Committee to clear his wife's name, and then the legend had it romanticized?

Yes, it's possible the story is romanticized, but as far as I know, there is no evidence of Lincoln writing the committee a letter regarding Mary's loyalty to the Union.

[Anita]

(03-08-2021 11:36 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  

(03-08-2021 10:54 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  In last night's episode Harold Holzer maintained that Abraham Lincoln appeared in person before the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War to defend his wife on charges of disloyalty. Most books I have read agree with Mr. Holzer.

Not everyone agrees, however. In Gerald J. Prokopowicz' Did Lincoln Own Slaves?: And Other Frequently Asked Questions About Abraham Lincoln Prokopowicz calls the story a legend and answers "no" to the question of whether it ever happened.

In Dr. Edward Steers' Lincoln Legends: Myths, Hoaxes, and Confabulations Associated with Our Greatest President the author asks, "Did Lincoln go before the Conduct of War committee?" Steers concludes, "As of this writing, however, the myth remains an orphan, but an interesting one. Lincoln never appeared before the committee."

In 1975 Mark E. Neely, Jr. wrote an article entitled "Abraham Lincoln did NOT Defend His Wife Before the Committee on the Conduct of the War."

Seems difficult to believe since a President in office isn't supposed to show up at Capitol, except for his inauguration, the State of the Union (at the time a written Annual Message there read by a clerk), and in case he's nominally summoned to testify, during his impeachment trial?????
That said, would it be possible that Lincoln did wrote a letter to the Committee to clear his wife's name, and then the legend had it romanticized?

Emilie, I'm glad you are able to use the audio link and are joining in the discussion.

Roger has posted excellent sources refuting the claim that Lincoln met with the Joint Commission on the Conduct of the War to defend Mary's loyalty. I couldn't find Holzer's source supporting it occurred.

I have Ed Steers book but just read Neely's article. You may want to read it and see how the myth developed and why it still lives on. Here's the link.
https://www.friendsofthelincolncollectio...975-01.pdf

I agree with Roger that to date there's no evidence Lincoln defended Mary's loyalty before the Committee, in person or by written statement.

[Anita]

CNN wrapped up it's 6-part series "Lincoln:Divided We Stand" last night.

Please read this analysis of the series by John Blake, CNN. "Did Black Lives Matter to Abraham Lincoln? It's Complicated"
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/14/us/abraha...index.html

I believe CNN's most important contribution was to invite those with views of Lincoln as a man who didn't care about Black people and was a racist, to sit down at the table and participate with Lincoln scholars and educators. CNN provided a forum where we listen and learn from each other's perceptions of history and hopefully we can grow as a people. Lincoln's life is a great example that it's possible.

[Rob Wick]

Very well said Anita.

Best
Rob

[ReignetteC]

An author/historian said that Ford's Theatre announced the president's expected attendance, and the segment provided a graphic of a "playbill" announcing such. I guess he didn't read Brenner's book, The Ford Theatre Assassination Playbills.