What would Lincoln think of all this?

[LincolnMan]

That’s the question I’ve been asked a few times recently. Sadly, I think he would say that things haven’t changed much by the looks of things-at least by what we’ve seen in 2020. Am I wrong? I admit I am a bit down by current events. What do you speculate Lincoln would think of things 150 years after his time?

[RJNorton]

Bill, that is a very interesting question. It made me think of the following words from Abraham Lincoln. I may be off base, but this is what came into my brain. Maybe I am being too extreme.

"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

SOURCE: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Address Before the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois (January 27, 1838), p. 109.

[LincolnMan]

I love the quote Roger. I don’t think our nation is on the verge of destruction. I don’t know- maybe some people do! My post was meant to express how that even after so long since Lincoln’s passing there is still so much strife and division. My heart grieves. Have we as a people learned nothing? And so, if Mr. Lincoln were to rise out of his grave and see all that has happened- everywhere- what would he think?

[David Lockmiller]

(11-06-2020 04:56 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Bill, that is a very interesting question. It made me think of the following words from Abraham Lincoln. I may be off base, but this is what came into my brain. Maybe I am being too extreme.

"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

SOURCE: The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Address Before the Young Men's Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois (January 27, 1838), p. 109.

President Lincoln was not aware of the possibility of thermonuclear war.

Confederate ironclads were the severest military threat of his day and the direst associated threat was solved by international diplomacy on the part of Seward and President Lincoln.

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(11-06-2020 08:28 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  I love the quote Roger. I don’t think our nation is on the verge of destruction. I don’t know- maybe some people do! My post was meant to express how that even after so long since Lincoln’s passing there is still so much strife and division. My heart grieves. Have we as a people learned nothing? And so, if Mr. Lincoln were to rise out of his grave and see all that has happened- everywhere- what would he think?

I read this morning an informative article in the New York Times Magazine on this subject: "How Do You Know When Society Is About to Fall Apart?"

The New York Times Magazine author: Joseph Tainter walked me through the arguments of the book that made his reputation, “The Collapse of Complex Societies,” which has for years been the seminal text in the study of societal collapse, an academic subdiscipline that arguably was born with its publication in 1988. “Civilizations are fragile, impermanent things,” Tainter writes.

It is a long article and I would recommend reading first only the parts quoting Joseph Tainter.

[Rob Wick]

My flippant side wants to say that Lincoln would say "been there, done that."

My serious side says that Lincoln would be saddened to see how things are, but not surprised. We like to say that the Civil War was the greatest existential crisis this nation faced, but I'm not sure I can agree with that, at least in a particular sense. To be sure, the nation faced a cleaving that if successful would have weakened both the northern country and the southern country immeasurably. There would have been very little chance for America to grow into the world power it became. Yet we would have survived as a people, and I honestly believe that had the Industrial Revolution came about the same way it did, the north would have prospered the same way the country did as a cohesive unit, although on a smaller scale. The south, had it remained agrarian and continued slavery, would likely have become more like a third-world country.

The question mark would be how we would have reacted to the other existential crises that faced America, i.e., the Great Depression and World War II just to name the greatest. I guess what I'm trying to say is we place too much emphasis on what Lincoln would think. Ida Tarbell refused to answer that type of question, saying the answer was at best a guess that would be informed by the biases of the person asking it. She urged people, instead, to consider how Lincoln approached issues and study the way he reached a decision, and how willing he was to change his mind if new evidence pointed another way. Lincoln, while the greatest leader we've ever had, was still a man, and men can control events only so much (a point Lincoln often made). We can look at him for guidance only so far. We are the determiners of our own destiny.

Best
Rob

[Gene C]

A recent seance with Nettie Colburn Maynard may add some interesting answers to your question, and others.

While still living in Springfield and having a premonition that he would not survive his term in office as president, Abraham Lincoln pondered future national issues.
He wrote his ideas on how to deal with these issues and placed them in an old mayonnaise jar and hid it somewhere at an undisclosed location in New Salem.

Found in the early 1920's by Wilma Francis Minor, she was all about to reveal these papers as a sequel to the love letters she found between Abe and Ann. A little over enthusiastic from her original find of a single love letter, she got carried away and fabricated some additional love letters which were proven to be forgeries. Her credibility ruined by this costly mistake, she realized that no one would believe her if she decided to make these new found papers from Lincoln public. Unable to sell them she became distraught and she stored them in her basement where they were soon forgotten.
Years later they some how turned up at a flea market in West Virginia and will soon be published in a book by well known journalist Ann Onymous
All will be revealed in an upcoming TV special as soon as production details are finalized.

Either that, or the left over burrito I had for supper disagreed with me and I dreamed the whole thing.

[Rob Wick]

Gene,

There's just a couple of problems with that theory.

1) Mayonnaise didn't come to America until 1903, so Lincoln could not have had that type of jar.
2) There's no evidence that Lincoln ever returned to New Salem. Besides, he would have never been able to explain to Mary why he wanted to go back to where the only true love of his life lived.
3) It's illegal to sell burritos in Kentucky.

Other than that, I think you're on to something.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(11-06-2020 10:44 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  President Lincoln was not aware of the possibility of thermonuclear war.

Confederate ironclads were the severest military threat of his day and the direst associated threat was solved by international diplomacy on the part of Seward and President Lincoln.


I read this morning an informative article in the New York Times Magazine on this subject: "How Do You Know When Society Is About to Fall Apart?"

The New York Times Magazine author: Joseph Tainter walked me through the arguments of the book that made his reputation, “The Collapse of Complex Societies,” which has for years been the seminal text in the study of societal collapse, an academic subdiscipline that arguably was born with its publication in 1988. “Civilizations are fragile, impermanent things,” Tainter writes.

Take Rome, which, in Tainter's telling, was able to win significant wealth by sacking its neighbors but was thereafter required to maintain an ever larger and more expensive military just to keep the imperial machine from stalling — until it couldn’t anymore.

[According to the article,] "U.S. military spending skyrocketed — to, by some estimates, a total of more than $1 trillion today from $138 billion in 1980."

That is over a seven-fold increase, not adjusted for inflation (7 times $140 million is $980 million). This is year after year of exponential increases in the military budget.

But We the People of the United States cannot afford basic universal health care as the citizens of Europe are able to experience.

Other quotes from the article:

"Since the beginning of the pandemic, the total net worth of America’s billionaires, all 686 of them, has jumped by close to a trillion dollars. In September, nearly 23 million Americans reported going without enough to eat, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Whatever problems those 686 billionaires may have, they are not the same as those of the 23 million who are hungry."

"Collapse appears not as an ending, but a reality that some have already suffered."

Finally, there is this observation made by the author of the New York Times Magazine article: "Recently, Tainter tells me, he has seen 'a definite uptick' in calls from journalists: The study of societal collapse suddenly no longer seems like a purely academic pursuit."

[LincolnMan]

Good point David. Puts things in perspective.

[LincolnMan]

Instead of the question “What would Lincoln think of all this?”- it seems events have framed it to ask “What do we think of Lincoln?”

[Mylye2222]

Well I hope at least he would have been proud watching at Biden's BBB Policies. "With charity for all". Even parts of former Trump voters appreciate Biden's welfare approach.

[LincolnMan]

My meaning was meant to say that we now might be asking: “In light of our times, what do we think of Lincoln?”
That question is different than the title I posted as this thread: “What would Lincoln think of all this?”

[David Lockmiller]

(05-16-2021 07:50 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  My meaning was meant to say that we now might be asking: “In light of our times, what do we think of Lincoln?”
That question is different than the title I posted as this thread: “What would Lincoln think of all this?”

I think that we are now having times with issues as critical as that of Civil War. What better person than President Abraham Lincoln to guide us in our thinking and actions?

[LincolnMan]

Yes, David I agree- Lincoln still walks at midnight. And my prayer and hope is that we still honor his legacy enough to keep us united.

[David Lockmiller]

(05-17-2021 07:28 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Yes, David I agree- Lincoln still walks at midnight. And my prayer and hope is that we still honor his legacy enough to keep us united.

I like the phrase: "Lincoln still walks at midnight."

Where did the phrase originate?

I think that Lincoln also walks in the daytime. At least, he does for me through his work and accomplishments.