Abraham Lincoln's Speech to the Indiana Volunteers

[RJNorton]

Thank you to Steve for sending this information. Steve writes, "I noticed the speech Lincoln gave to the Indiana Volunteers on 17 March 1865 at the National Hotel wasn't in the Collected Works (or at least I couldn't find it if it was). I found a copy of the speech on page 3 of the 18 March 1865 edition of the Evening Star. I thought it might be worth posting it to the Forum for others to read. I think it's a good speech."

[Gene C]

Thanks Steve, that was interesting.

I noticed Lincoln refers to the southern leaders as "our erring brethren".

[LincolnMan]

Thanks Steve. Great stuff in that speech. Is that the event that sidelined Lincoln away from some other event that he was going to attend originally that JWB was going to capture him before Lincoln arrived there for?

[RJNorton]

(05-05-2020 05:59 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Thanks Steve. Great stuff in that speech. Is that the event that sidelined Lincoln away from some other event that he was going to attend originally that JWB was going to capture him before Lincoln arrived there for?

Yes. Booth thought Lincoln was going to attend a production of the play Still Waters Run Deep at the Campbell Hospital near the Old Soldier’s Home on the outskirts of Washington.

[David Lockmiller]

(05-05-2020 06:47 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-05-2020 05:59 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  Thanks Steve. Great stuff in that speech. Is that the event that sidelined Lincoln away from some other event that he was going to attend originally that JWB was going to capture him before Lincoln arrived there for?

Yes. Booth thought Lincoln was going to attend a production of the play Still Waters Run Deep at the Campbell Hospital near the Old Soldier’s Home on the outskirts of Washington.

Then, I am glad President Lincoln decided to make the "Indiana" speech. Had Mr. Lincoln attended the play as planned, world history would have been changed in obviously unknown ways. One can only imagine if it were President Johnson dictating the terms of surrender for Lee's army.

---

Here are a couple of posts from the past. Laurie Verge started on June 6, 2018 a thread under the Heading of "Other" with the thread ironically titled "Just read - no comments needed." My reply below (#43 on the thread) was made 10 days later on June 16, 2018 and four more pages of comments followed my comment on the thread ironically-titled by Laurie.

My reply #43 was made in reply to Laurie's post #40 that she had made the previous day. Both posts are very much worth reading. My post, for which I did not identify the source, is President Lincoln's Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment (March 17, 1865).

I would suggest reading the original post #43 with highlighted sections of both Laurie's post and my own. For those that do not wish to take the trouble to do so, the two "unhighligted" posts are immediately below.

L Verge Wrote:
When the Civil War began, Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army. All 44 agreed. One later deserted; the other 43 served faithfully until the end of the war. [Forrest probably promised freedom to these particular slaves and their families. If they had deserted, their families would have remained slaves.] Though they had many chances to leave, they chose to remain loyal to the South and to Forrest. Part of General Forrest's command included his own Escort Company, his Green Berets, made up of the very best soldiers available. This unit, which varied in size from 40-90 men, was the elite of the cavalry. Eight of these picked men were black soldiers and all served gallantly and bravely throughout the war. At war's end, when Forrest's cavalry surrendered in May 1865, there were 65 black troopers on the muster roll. Of the soldiers who served under him, Forrest said of the black troops: Finer Confederates never fought.

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.


Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union . . . .

Ladies and Gentlemen, . . . I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. . . I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

Danny told me that the Order of the Pole Bearers was the precursor to the NAACP in Memphis.

My post in reply reads:

President Lincoln's Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment (March 17, 1865)

There are but few aspects of this great war on which I have not already expressed my views by speaking or writing. There is one---the recent effort of our erring bretheren, sometimes so-called, to employ the slaves in their armies. The great question with them has been: "Will the negro fight for them?'' They ought to know better than we; and, doubtless, do know better than we. I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever [I] hear any one, arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.

There is one thing about the negroes fighting for the rebels which we can know as well [as] they can; and that is that they can not, at [the] same time fight in their armies, and stay at home and make bread for them. And this being known and remembered we can have but little concern whether they become soldiers or not. I am rather in favor of the measure; and would at any time if I could, have loaned them a vote to carry it. We have to reach the bottom of the insurgent resources; and that they employ, or seriously think of employing, the slaves as soldiers, gives us glimpses of the bottom. Therefore I am glad of what we learn on this subject.

[Steve]

David, I only looked for the speech in the Collected Works - I didn't know it had already been somewhere else.

According to John Surratt's Rockville lecture it was actually Chief Justice Salmon Chase who attended the performance of Still Waters Run Deep at the hospital on March 17th 1865.

Here's an article about Gen. Forrest's pre-war slave trading I think anybody reading the above posted article should also read:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/o...926292001/

[David Lockmiller]

(05-09-2020 01:00 AM)Steve Wrote:  David, I only looked for the speech in the Collected Works - I didn't know it had already been somewhere else.

According to John Surratt's Rockville lecture it was actually Chief Justice Salmon Chase who attended the performance of Still Waters Run Deep at the hospital on March 17th 1865.

Here's an article about Gen. Forrest's pre-war slave trading I think anybody reading the above posted article should also read:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/o...926292001/

Steve

After reading your post, I recalled that I had made a post on the same subject sometime in the past. I used the excellent Search feature on this website to find my post. I saw that I made the response to a post made by Laurie. I read her post and immediately made the connection once again between her post and the speech President Lincoln made to the Indiana regiment. I had completely forgotten about Laurie’s post, and I then thought if I had forgotten the post, many others here would have forgotten as well.

The connection with Lincoln’s speech is the following:

"I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others.

Perhaps those black men who fought with General Forrest thought that the South would win the Civil War and that these men and their families would remain forever slaves. And, I do not know if President Lincoln was aware at the time that negro soldiers were already fighting for the South.

Great credit goes to Laurie that she provided this information to the Lincoln Discussion Symposium.

---

(05-09-2020 10:30 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(05-09-2020 01:00 AM)Steve Wrote:  David, I only looked for the speech in the Collected Works - I didn't know it had already been somewhere else.

According to John Surratt's Rockville lecture it was actually Chief Justice Salmon Chase who attended the performance of Still Waters Run Deep at the hospital on March 17th 1865.

Here's an article about Gen. Forrest's pre-war slave trading I think anybody reading the above posted article should also read:

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/o...926292001/

Steve

After reading your post, I recalled that I had made a post on the same subject sometime in the past. I used the excellent Search feature on this website to find my post. I saw that I made the response to a post made by Laurie. I read her post and immediately made the connection once again between her post and the speech President Lincoln made to the Indiana regiment. I had completely forgotten about Laurie’s post, and I then thought if I had forgotten the post, many others here would have forgotten as well.

The connection with Lincoln’s speech is the following:

"I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others.

Perhaps those black men who fought with General Forrest thought that the South would win the Civil War and that these men and their families would remain forever slaves. And, I do not know if President Lincoln was aware at the time that negro soldiers were already fighting for the South.

Great credit goes to Laurie that she provided this information to the Lincoln Discussion Symposium.

I wanted to add another observation.

"There is an important first part of President Lincoln’s speech, contained in Steve’s newspaper article post, which was not covered in the source of my post:

"I was born in Kentucky; raised in Indiana, and live in Illinois, [laughter] and I am now here, where it is my business to be, to care equally for the good people of all the States. I am glad to see an Indiana regiment on this day able to present this captured flag to the Governor of the State of Indiana. [Applause] I am not disposed, in saying this, to make a distinction between the States, for all have done equally well." [Applause.]

That last statement made by President Lincoln cut short any possible claim to the contrary.

[Steve]

(05-09-2020 10:30 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  "I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others.

Perhaps those black men who fought with General Forrest thought that the South would win the Civil War and that these men and their families would remain forever slaves. And, I do not know if President Lincoln was aware at the time that negro soldiers were already fighting for the South.

I haven't found a reliable source for the claim made in the above quoted article about Gen. Forrest's slaves becoming soldiers under his command. The Confederate government didn't start allowing the enlistment of black soldiers until March 1865, which is the very context behind Lincoln's speech. Also, the Confederates required that slaves enlisting in their army following Mar. 1865 to be freed by their masters before enlisting. From the article quoted above it sort of sounds like Forrest's men remained slaves. If so, they really didn't have a choice.

[David Lockmiller]

(05-10-2020 02:03 AM)Steve Wrote:  

(05-09-2020 10:30 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  Perhaps those black men who fought with General Forrest thought that the South would win the Civil War and that these men and their families would remain forever slaves. And, I do not know if President Lincoln was aware at the time that negro soldiers were already fighting for the South.

I haven't found a reliable source for the claim made in the above quoted article about Gen. Forrest's slaves becoming soldiers under his command. The Confederate government didn't start allowing the enlistment of black soldiers until March 1865, which is the very context behind Lincoln's speech. Also, the Confederates required that slaves enlisting in their army following Mar. 1865 to be freed by their masters before enlisting. From the article quoted above it sort of sounds like Forrest's men remained slaves. If so, they really didn't have a choice.

Laurie did not cite the source of her information.

I did find the following post on Wikipedia on the subject of "Nathan Bedford Forrest":

On July 5, 1875, Forrest gave a speech before the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association, a post-war organization of black Southerners advocating to improve the economic condition of blacks and to gain equal rights for all citizens. At this, his last public appearance, he made what The New York Times described as a "friendly speech"[168][169] during which, when offered a bouquet of flowers by a young black woman, he accepted them,[170] thanked her and kissed her on the cheek. Forrest spoke in encouragement of black advancement and of endeavoring to be a proponent for espousing peace and harmony between black and white Americans.[171]

168 Lewis, Michael; Serbu, Jacqueline (1999). "Kommemorating the Ku Klux Klan". The Sociological Quarterly. 40: 139–158. doi:10.1111/j.1533-8525.1999.tb02361.x.

169 "On This Day: Death of General Forrest", The New York Times, October 30, 1877

170 John Richard Stephens (2012). Commanding the Storm: Civil War Battles in the Words of the Generals Who Fought Them. Lyons Press. p. 319. ISBN 978-0-7627-9002-9.

171 Humanities, National Endowment for the (August 4, 2008), "Memphis daily appeal. (Memphis, Tenn.) 1847-1886, July 06, 1875, Image 1", Library of Congress, Chronicling America, ISSN 2166-1898, retrieved August 23, 2017

The next paragraph of the Wikipedia post reads:

In response to the Pole-Bearers speech, the Cavalry Survivors Association of Augusta, the first Confederate organization formed after the war, called a meeting in which Captain F. Edgeworth Eve gave a speech expressing strong disapproval of Forrest's remarks promoting inter-ethnic harmony, ridiculing his faculties and judgment and berating the woman who gave Forrest flowers as "a mulatto wench". The association voted unanimously to amend its constitution to expressly forbid publicly advocating for or hinting at any association of white women and girls as being in the same classes as "females of the negro race".[172][173]

[David Lockmiller]

(05-10-2020 04:09 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  Laurie did not cite the source of her information.

I found the source for Laurie's Post. I used the search term in Google Books: "Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army"

Forrest : Memphis' first White Civil Rights Advocate

As I recall, the following excerpt from this article was not in Laurie's post:

After the Civil War, General Forrest made a speech to the Memphis City Council (then called the Board of Aldermen). In this speech he said that there was no reason that the black man could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or any other job equal to whites. They were part of our community and should be involved and employed as such just like anyone else. In another speech to Federal authorities, Forrest said that many of the ex-slaves were skilled artisans and needed to be employed and that those skills needed to be taught to the younger workers. If not, then the next generation of blacks would have no skills and could not succeed and would become dependent on the welfare of society.

Forrest's words went unheeded. The Memphis & Selma Railroad was organized by Forrest after the war to help rebuild the South's transportation and to build the 'new South'. Forrest took it upon himself to hire blacks as architects, construction engineers and foremen, train engineers and conductors, and other high level jobs. In the North, blacks were prohibited from holding such jobs.