Are those stories about Mary abusive to Abraham overstated???

[Mylye2222]

I read excerpts of Burlingame's books. Apparently he followed first insinuations first spreaded by Herndon.
Don't you believe it might be overstated?

For me, if any of domestic abuse (apparently a few times physical and more on the emotional level) from Mary towards Abraham, it might well have to be attached with her vulnerable mental condition (angst, depression..)
Because true, plainly willing-to-hurt abusive husbands/wives do it behind closed doors. They hide their violence in public and play the "perfect couple" cards among friends, family, and colleagues. It's always the same scheme with willing abusers who want to dominate and destroy. If as alleged, Mary did really striked Abe with objects in the presence of guests and such, I'll bet more to put the blame on her mental state than portraying her as the "evil in dress" she's been so much called on too. That said, we'll never know what happened, and I'm not an apologist of any domestic violence. But in her case, there's some ground of "minoring circumstances". Anyway, it ever happened, it's certainly it would have been a source of emotional pain for everyone.
Yes adding to Herndon there were statements from the Springfield neighborhood. But again, those people recalled "hysteria episodes" from Mary. So I do believe, even at the time, where psychology was basically an unexplored world, people felt it was "special case".
How do you feel about it?

[Eva Elisabeth]

In a nutshell - I think that those interpretations come from men who have a very narrow idea of what their personal spouse has to be like and who cannot imagine other people have other views, needs and level of tolerance. I think the Lincolns were a good match to each other, neither was a spouse easy to live with, both were strong, striving personalities and had their challenging moments and features. Other than other windowed people around her (and nowadays!), Mary was faithful even beyond her husband's death and never remarried, not even had a serious affair. I think Abraham Lincoln was able and willing to deal with her weaker sides (as he once also expressed). And he was the only whose business it was, not Herndon's, Burlingame's & Co's. What do they know in the end about the Lincolns' feelings that allows them such destructive claims? And a lot of female VIPs of our times share traits of Mary (shopping mania eg.) without being judged similarly hard.

[Mylye2222]

(01-05-2020 06:18 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  In a nutshell - I think that those interpretations come from men who have a very narrow idea of what their personal spouse has to be like and who cannot imagine other people have other views, needs and level of tolerance. I think the Lincolns were a good match to each other, neither was a spouse easy to live with, both were strong, striving personalities and had their challenging moments and features. Other than other windowed people around her (and nowadays!), Mary was faithful even beyond her husband's death and never remarried, not even had a serious affair. I think Abraham Lincoln was able and willing to deal with her weaker sides (as he once also expressed). And he was the only whose business it was, not Herndon's, Burlingame's & Co's. And a lot of female VIPs of our times share traits of Mary (shopping mania eg.) without being judged similarly hard.

Yes. I also have a feeling she was harshly judged by the Herndons and such, because she was a social code breaker. In those times a woman wouldn't dare to show a keen interest in public life. She also broke her family tradition by marrying a man of humble roots.
Both Lincoln's were unconventional and beyond their era in many ways. Lincoln was also a very liberal husband. He listened to her needs, but also to her mind.
When I'm talking about her mental state, it's not a finger pointing. It's wasn't her fault and her will to have those vulnerabilities. Just like A. L never chose to be melancholic with sometimes bouts of depression.

[Gene C]

The stories about Mary being abusive to Lincoln come mainly from Herndon, and Herndon did not like Mary.
Herndon's relationship with Lincoln is a bit complicated.
Herndon believed he was more intuitive in understanding and reading other peoples personalities, especially Lincoln's.

[RJNorton]

How many people embellish a story from 20 years prior in order to make it more interesting to the listener? Not everyone, but I think a lot of folks do. IMO, this is what happened in some of the letters sent to Herndon after the assassination. A good number of Herndon's contacts may have embellished/overdramatized their stories of the Lincolns' marriage. I think Professor Burlingame looked for the most sensationalistic stories he could find.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I really believe it's a matter of different personal views on a happy marriage and resulting interpretations. Both Herndon and Burlingame I think specifically looked for what they dislike(d).
My parents were (respectively my mother still is) strong challenging characters - both needed a likewise spouse (and lots of freedom). 24/7 harmony would have bored both to death, they needed to clash and mend. I think many people couldn't imagine that as a fulfilling way of life/marriage, but to them they were a perfect match.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I'm just wondering - can anyone think of a 20th/21st century female author/writer who criticized Mary/the Lincolns' marriage like Burlingame?

[Rob Wick]

While I wouldn't say as strong as Burlingame, I can name one. Ida Tarbell.

Best
Rob

[AussieMick]

I dont think that enough balance has been given to the benefits that Abraham Lincoln gained through being married to Mary. Obviously we'll never be able to quantify the pluses and negatives.

we'll never know how Mary's opinions about the Cabinet members and Generals etc affected Lincoln's decisions ... but you can bet that she wasnt backward in telling him. Certainly those opinions wouldnt have been perfect ... and Lincoln's decisions wernt always great , but overall he seems to have got it right (and better than anyone else IMO would have done).

When he was running for office, I suggest that she would have given him support that was essential to his success.

Would he have been able to write Gettysburg address ? ( I know that he was under huge stress from Mary at that time ... but maybe that gave him extra focus) Would he have been able to cope with the huge losses in the Civil War?

If he had been unmarried , or married to someone else, would he have been the same man?

[Mylye2222]

(01-07-2020 05:21 PM)AussieMick Wrote:  I dont think that enough balance has been given to the benefits that Abraham Lincoln gained through being married to Mary. Obviously we'll never be able to quantify the pluses and negatives.

we'll never know how Mary's opinions about the Cabinet members and Generals etc affected Lincoln's decisions ... but you can bet that she wasnt backward in telling him. Certainly those opinions wouldnt have been perfect ... and Lincoln's decisions wernt always great , but overall he seems to have got it right (and better than anyone else IMO would have done).

When he was running for office, I suggest that she would have given him support that was essential to his success.

Would he have been able to write Gettysburg address ? ( I know that he was under huge stress from Mary at that time ... but maybe that gave him extra focus) Would he have been able to cope with the huge losses in the Civil War?

If he had been unmarried , or married to someone else, would he have been the same man?

To summ it all : No President Lincoln without Mary Todd Lincoln. In many ways, she was the Hillary Clinton of 19th century.

[Gene C]

(01-08-2020 12:30 PM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  To summ it all : No President Lincoln without Mary Todd Lincoln. In many ways, she was the Hillary Clinton of 19th century.

Fortunately Mary was content to be the wife of a president.
Time will tell on who history is kinder to.

Fido adds, "I knew Mary Lincoln, I worked with Mary Lincoln, Mary Lincoln was a friend of mine. Hillary is no Mary Lincoln"
(Fido likes to do impersonations of politicians - our apologies to Lloyd Benson)

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-07-2020 04:06 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  While I wouldn't say as strong as Burlingame, I can name one. Ida Tarbell.

Best
Rob

Thanks, Rob - with all respect to Ida Tarbell, I was thinking to a woman of our "modern" generations...

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Can't help it - comparing Mary to Hillary respectively v.v. gives me stomach ache. I have a higher opinion of Mrs. Lincoln, truth to be told. (She was at least genuinely the one she was.)

[Rob Wick]

First off, I respectfully disagree that Tarbell lacks relevance to this discussion. Given that Tarbell overshadowed even Herndon to become the greatest Lincoln biographer of her time and shortly thereafter (at least until Sandburg published Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years), she has a great deal to offer in regards to Mary. Indeed, if one looks at her papers, it's obvious that Tarbell focused on her in many instances. Don't forget it was Tarbell who generally proved there was no marriage ceremony planned, which remains a relevant question today.

More important, however, is that this question can never be fully or satisfactorily answered. Too much opinion (on either side) comes into play. It's quite possible that Mary was both loved by Lincoln and a shrewish, abusive woman. To insist that only one side is correct completely shoots apart exactly how history unfolds. Only the most inept historian expects that the story follows a linear narrative where every fact is well-known, completely provable, and beyond reproach. I don't fault Herndon or Burlingame for their interpretation, and I don't believe it's because they are men. I will wait to the end of my days for anyone to show evidence other than their personal opinion that this is true. I doubt I'll ever see it.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(01-08-2020 06:59 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(01-07-2020 04:06 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  While I wouldn't say as strong as Burlingame, I can name one. Ida Tarbell.

Best
Rob

Thanks, Rob - with all respect to Ida Tarbell, I was thinking to a woman of our "modern" generations...

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Can't help it - comparing Mary to Hillary respectively v.v. gives me stomach ache. I have a higher opinion of Mrs. Lincoln, truth to be told.

What's wrong with Ida Tarbell? I think that subject matter knowledge is much more important than having lived in a "modern" generation. By the way, when did the "modern" generations begin?

I would like to add for consideration the name of Doris Kearns Goodwin as a very knowledgeable "modern" generation author on a broad range of Lincoln subject matter (if that name has not already been added).

I just suggested today to a man I met while I stood before the Patagian sculpture of Lincoln in front of San Francisco City Hall, that he go across the Civic Center Plaza (pointing to the San Francisco Main Public Library) and obtain her book "Team of Rivals" in order to learn more about Lincoln.

[RJNorton]

Quoting Professor Burlingame:

"The abuse didn't end once the Lincolns got to Washington."

"She would regularly — we have testimony from more than one source — she would insult him. She would berate him in front of other people, and say, 'That's the worst speech I've ever heard anybody give. I don't see how a man could get up in front of the public and speak such venal things," says Burlingame, who's readying a monograph on the Lincoln marriage. "And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on Abraham Lincoln's speech?

https://history.howstuffworks.com/histor...incoln.htm