Slavery Reparations

[Christine]

Sigh. Any comments?

[David Lockmiller]

In 1851, California’s first governor, Peter Burnett, proposed extinction of the Indian race in California. Today, June 19, 2019, California Governor Newsom, in an emotional presentation, recited a published chronicle from the 19th century that listed a tally of Indian deaths, including an account of a white settler who chose to kill children with a revolver instead of a high-caliber shotgun because “it tore them up so bad.”

But where do you start and where do you stop with reparations being made for injustices committed over a century ago? And, in what form should the reparations be made and to whom? For instance, what is the compensation now due to Union soldiers who died in the American Civil War serving a just cause (i.e., the Union)?

More recently, for many years, I have advocated for Thomas Thompson, a man who was executed on July 14, 1998 at San Quentin State Prison, for a crime which he did not commit, and in violation of two of his U.S. Constitutional rights to a fair trial on a five-to-four vote of the U.S. Supreme Court. What would now be justice in his case?

[L Verge]

(06-19-2019 07:34 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  In 1851, California’s first governor, Peter Burnett, proposed extinction of the Indian race in California. Today, June 19, 2019, California Governor Newsom, in an emotional presentation, recited a published chronicle from the 19th century that listed a tally of Indian deaths, including an account of a white settler who chose to kill children with a revolver instead of a high-caliber shotgun because “it tore them up so bad.”

But where do you start and where do you stop with reparations being made for injustices committed over a century ago? And, in what form should the reparations be made and to whom? For instance, what is the compensation now due to Union soldiers who died in the American Civil War serving a just cause (i.e., the Union)?

More recently, for many years, I have advocated for Thomas Thompson, a man who was executed on July 14, 1998 at San Quentin State Prison, for a crime which he did not commit, and in violation of two of his U.S. Constitutional rights to a fair trial on a five-to-four vote of the U.S. Supreme Court. What would now be justice in his case?

Excellent questions, David, that have been asked by many clear-thinking individuals for several decades now. Georgetown University grappled with that question of slave reparation and devised an apology that included free education for descendants. The question of many has been what proof is acceptable to prove descent from a slave.

I may have mentioned that a new initiative was begun in 2018 to study the lynching of blacks (mainly from post-CW to the 1930s). Again, what must we do to undo a wrong -- other than recognize that it happened, move on, and try to ensure that such things don't happen again. Frankly, I don't think any of us deserve to be judged by the sins of our fathers, but sometimes I think that is what is happening in our world today.

[Dave Taylor]

I have always been impressed by the words of historian Ta-Nehisi Coates who spoke today in support of the creation of a congressional committee to study reparations. I would highly recommend you watch (or read) his opening statement today. It was an apt rebuke of the recent words from the Senate Majority leader.

Coates also wrote a very long piece regarding reparations for the Atlantic a few years ago. It’s a long read but very informative. I’m excerpting a part of it here that I feel sums up while it is worthwhile for the U.S. government to at least study reparations:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about “black pathology,” the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America’s relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer.

And this destruction did not end with slavery. Discriminatory laws joined the equal burden of citizenship to unequal distribution of its bounty. These laws reached their apex in the mid-20th century, when the federal government—through housing policies—engineered the wealth gap, which remains with us to this day. When we think of white supremacy, we picture Colored Only signs, but we should picture pirate flags.

On some level, we have always grasped this.

“Negro poverty is not white poverty,” President Johnson said in his historic civil-rights speech.

“Many of its causes and many of its cures are the same. But there are differences—deep, corrosive, obstinate differences—radiating painful roots into the community and into the family, and the nature of the individual. These differences are not racial differences. They are solely and simply the consequence of ancient brutality, past injustice, and present prejudice.”

We invoke the words of Jefferson and Lincoln because they say something about our legacy and our traditions. We do this because we recognize our links to the past—at least when they flatter us. But black history does not flatter American democracy; it chastens it. The popular mocking of reparations as a harebrained scheme authored by wild-eyed lefties and intellectually unserious black nationalists is fear masquerading as laughter. Black nationalists have always perceived something unmentionable about America that integrationists dare not acknowledge—that white supremacy is not merely the work of hotheaded demagogues, or a matter of false consciousness, but a force so fundamental to America that it is difficult to imagine the country without it.

And so we must imagine a new country. Reparations—by which I mean the full acceptance of our collective biography and its consequences—is the price we must pay to see ourselves squarely. The recovering alcoholic may well have to live with his illness for the rest of his life. But at least he is not living a drunken lie. Reparations beckons us to reject the intoxication of hubris and see America as it is—the work of fallible humans.

Won’t reparations divide us? Not any more than we are already divided. The wealth gap merely puts a number on something we feel but cannot say—that American prosperity was ill-gotten and selective in its distribution. What is needed is an airing of family secrets, a settling with old ghosts. What is needed is a healing of the American psyche and the banishment of white guilt.

What I’m talking about is more than recompense for past injustices—more than a handout, a payoff, hush money, or a reluctant bribe. What I’m talking about is a national reckoning that would lead to spiritual renewal. Reparations would mean the end of scarfing hot dogs on the Fourth of July while denying the facts of our heritage. Reparations would mean the end of yelling “patriotism” while waving a Confederate flag. Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.”

[Rsmyth]

The money for reparations is only a conduit to unite our pasts into one, which today, centuries after the birth of this nation are separate and distinct - one for blacks and one for whites. Our 4th of July celebrates "united, free, and independent states." Don't kid yourself into thinking this is a holiday for all.

[David Lockmiller]

(06-19-2019 08:03 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(06-19-2019 07:34 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  In 1851, California’s first governor, Peter Burnett, proposed extinction of the Indian race in California. Today, June 19, 2019, California Governor Newsom, in an emotional presentation, recited a published chronicle from the 19th century that listed a tally of Indian deaths, including an account of a white settler who chose to kill children with a revolver instead of a high-caliber shotgun because “it tore them up so bad.”

But where do you start and where do you stop with reparations being made for injustices committed over a century ago? And, in what form should the reparations be made and to whom? For instance, what is the compensation now due to Union soldiers who died in the American Civil War serving a just cause (i.e., the Union)?

More recently, for many years, I have advocated for Thomas Thompson, a man who was executed on July 14, 1998 at San Quentin State Prison, for a crime which he did not commit, and in violation of two of his U.S. Constitutional rights to a fair trial on a five-to-four vote of the U.S. Supreme Court. What would now be justice in his case?

Excellent questions, David, that have been asked by many clear-thinking individuals for several decades now. Georgetown University grappled with that question of slave reparation and devised an apology that included free education for descendants. The question of many has been what proof is acceptable to prove descent from a slave.

I may have mentioned that a new initiative was begun in 2018 to study the lynching of blacks (mainly from post-CW to the 1930s). Again, what must we do to undo a wrong -- other than recognize that it happened, move on, and try to ensure that such things don't happen again. Frankly, I don't think any of us deserve to be judged by the sins of our fathers, but sometimes I think that is what is happening in our world today.

Thank you, Laurie. I was thinking this morning about the commercial chain of enslavement. If the chain had been broken, there would have been no slave trade in the 1800's. The problem was that each of the components profited enormously for their part in this devastating injustice.

There were the warring black tribes with modern European weapons that attacked, killed, and captured members of peaceful tribes in the interior of Africa. Their victims were then sold to Europeans and Americans (I presume) that transported the newly purchased slaves to their ultimate customers in North and South America. And, then there were the ultimate purchasers who placed these human beings into interminable slavery for their own profit and well-being. And, finally, there were all those that profited from the cheap cotton and tobacco in one way or another and knowing that the base of their own good lives was the life-long suffering of other human beings.

And, look at the two world wars. One might legitimately state that the second world war was the result of the unfair settlement of the first world war. Europe was devastated by World War II. And, it was the United States Marshall Plan (a form of reparations one might argue) that ultimately brought Europe back to life and prosperity.

[David Lockmiller]

(06-19-2019 08:30 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote:  I have always been impressed by the words of historian Ta-Nehisi Coates who spoke today in support of the creation of a congressional committee to study reparations.

Coates also wrote a very long piece regarding reparations for the Atlantic a few years ago.

[The following are a few of the facts that I garnered from your post.]

President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office.

We invoke the words of [] Lincoln because they say something about our legacy and our traditions.

Reparations would mean a revolution of the American consciousness, a reconciling of our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.”

What exactly does Mr. Coates say about Lincoln ending slavery in the United States, both as a candidate for the United States Senate and as President of the United States? And, what does he say about all of the white men and their families that suffered in the American Civil War that ultimately ended slavery in the United States forever and maintained the Union? I presume he did not skimp on the discussion of these important related subjects!

And, regarding President James K. Polk, U.S. Representative Abraham Lincoln did his utmost to prevent President Polk from invading Mexico with his "spot resolutions." Representative Lincoln also introduced a resolution during Polk's administration to end slavery in Washington DC (I hope that Mr. Coates specifically referenced this fact in his Atlantic article). And, finally, there is the fact that President Polk in his voluminous memoir does not mention the name of Abraham Lincoln even once.

I presume that Mr. Coates' Atlantic Magazine article is filled with references of how President Abraham Lincoln ended slavery in the United States forever with both his Emancipation Proclamation and the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Certainly the black slaves at the time appreciated the efforts of President Abraham Lincoln. I hope that Mr. Coates adequately acknowledged President Lincoln's and white Union soldiers' contributions in this result. If not, then shame on Mr. Coates because he is not being fair and just (in my opinion)! He himself has failed to "reconcil[e] our self-image as the great democratizer with the facts of our history.”

[LincolnMan]

(06-19-2019 07:34 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  In 1851, California’s first governor, Peter Burnett, proposed extinction of the Indian race in California. Today, June 19, 2019, California Governor Newsom, in an emotional presentation, recited a published chronicle from the 19th century that listed a tally of Indian deaths, including an account of a white settler who chose to kill children with a revolver instead of a high-caliber shotgun because “it tore them up so bad.”

But where do you start and where do you stop with reparations being made for injustices committed over a century ago? And, in what form should the reparations be made and to whom? For instance, what is the compensation now due to Union soldiers who died in the American Civil War serving a just cause (i.e., the Union)?

More recently, for many years, I have advocated for Thomas Thompson, a man who was executed on July 14, 1998 at San Quentin State Prison, for a crime which he did not commit, and in violation of two of his U.S. Constitutional rights to a fair trial on a five-to-four vote of the U.S. Supreme Court. What would now be justice in his case?

I have the same questions as well.

[JMadonna]

Burgess Owens opinion

https://www.breitbart.com/radio/2019/06/...tic-party/

[LincolnMan]

(06-20-2019 11:39 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  Burgess Owens opinion

https://www.breitbart.com/radio/2019/06/...tic-party/

His perspective is very reasoned and welcomed!

[Christine]

A couple of thoughts I had this morning while out walking:

Did the federal government ever buy, sell, or hold slaves? Did any state government ever buy, sell, or hold slaves?

If the answer is no, then this begs a question. Can a government be held responsible for actions made by individual citizens? I am not asking this to be smart alecky or cause contention, I sincerely want a serious answer.

The government ordered Japanese citizens to be placed in internment camps during WW 11. I understand the reasons, but it still was a terrible policy. I believe reparations were made to those people and families.

The government ordered Native Americans placed on reservations, and we are still paying reparations for that, but the result has not been to help these wonderful people but has only 'enslaved' them in other ways.

Were the Jim Crow laws and government policies that caused so much racial disenfranchisement federal laws or were those state laws? Is the federal government responsible for terrible state laws enacted by individual states and their elected leaders?

Who decides who would receive these reparations? Having done a great deal of Civil War era genealogical research I know how difficult it is to find slave ancestors. What about the person who doesn't know his or her ancestry? Many people don't even know who their parents are, let alone their great great great grandparents. How would it be proven? After all, many African Americans here today came after the Civil War and did not have slave ancestors.

Who pays? My ancestors were not even in the United States during the slave period, so would I still be responsible to pay a tax to pay reparations for something my relatives had no part of?

And who decides how much reparation would be 'enough?' If a person received a pell grant for college, have they received enough reparation already? How about federal housing money? Or food stamps? Or welfare payments? Or Medicaid? Or subsidized child care? Has that money already received, much in consequence of the past injustices and terrible government policies that have kept poor people enslaved in another sense, already paid the debt?

I make no pretense to knowing the answers to any of these questions, however, one look at the immigration chaos shows that even for all of the problems in the United States of America, millions of people all over the world still think this is the best place to live to accomplish their hopes and dreams. Too bad many of the people who have lived here for generations have been told differently.

[Gene C]

(06-19-2019 08:30 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote:  Coates also wrote a very long piece regarding reparations for the Atlantic a few years ago. It’s a long read but very informative. I’m excerpting a part of it here that I feel sums up while it is worthwhile for the U.S. government to at least study reparations:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about “black pathology,” the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America’s relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer.

Coates makes some interesting points, so I don't want to comment to much and take what he says out of context.
I would be interested in the source of his statement "The early American economy was built on slave labor"
Also, it is my understanding that warring tribes in Africa frequently sold their captives into slavery, and that was the main source of black slaves sold in America, England, Central and South America.

Yes, slavery is wrong, but its goes back to thousands of years before Christ. It is not the sole fault of America. Reparations are fine, but they can label people as victims, unable to help themselves, and that is part of the problem. After a while, repeated attempts to help, becomes enabling.

[LincolnMan]

(06-21-2019 05:19 PM)Gene C Wrote:  

(06-19-2019 08:30 PM)Dave Taylor Wrote:  Coates also wrote a very long piece regarding reparations for the Atlantic a few years ago. It’s a long read but very informative. I’m excerpting a part of it here that I feel sums up while it is worthwhile for the U.S. government to at least study reparations:

"The early American economy was built on slave labor. The Capitol and the White House were built by slaves. President James K. Polk traded slaves from the Oval Office. The laments about “black pathology,” the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America’s relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer.

Coates makes some interesting points, so I don't want to comment to much and take what he says out of context.
I would be interested in the source of his statement "The early American economy was built on slave labor"
Also, it is my understanding that warring tribes in Africa frequently sold their captives into slavery, and that was the main source of black slaves sold in America, England, Central and South America.

Yes, slavery is wrong, but its goes back to thousands of years before Christ. It is not the sole fault of America. Reparations are fine, but they can label people as victims, unable to help themselves, and that is part of the problem. After a while, repeated attempts to help, becomes enabling.

Great points all.

[L Verge]

(06-21-2019 09:50 AM)Christine Wrote:  A couple of thoughts I had this morning while out walking:

Did the federal government ever buy, sell, or hold slaves? Did any state government ever buy, sell, or hold slaves?

If the answer is no, then this begs a question. Can a government be held responsible for actions made by individual citizens? I am not asking this to be smart alecky or cause contention, I sincerely want a serious answer.

The government ordered Japanese citizens to be placed in internment camps during WW 11. I understand the reasons, but it still was a terrible policy. I believe reparations were made to those people and families.

The government ordered Native Americans placed on reservations, and we are still paying reparations for that, but the result has not been to help these wonderful people but has only 'enslaved' them in other ways.

Were the Jim Crow laws and government policies that caused so much racial disenfranchisement federal laws or were those state laws? Is the federal government responsible for terrible state laws enacted by individual states and their elected leaders?

Who decides who would receive these reparations? Having done a great deal of Civil War era genealogical research I know how difficult it is to find slave ancestors. What about the person who doesn't know his or her ancestry? Many people don't even know who their parents are, let alone their great great great grandparents. How would it be proven? After all, many African Americans here today came after the Civil War and did not have slave ancestors.

Who pays? My ancestors were not even in the United States during the slave period, so would I still be responsible to pay a tax to pay reparations for something my relatives had no part of?

And who decides how much reparation would be 'enough?' If a person received a pell grant for college, have they received enough reparation already? How about federal housing money? Or food stamps? Or welfare payments? Or Medicaid? Or subsidized child care? Has that money already received, much in consequence of the past injustices and terrible government policies that have kept poor people enslaved in another sense, already paid the debt?

I make no pretense to knowing the answers to any of these questions, however, one look at the immigration chaos shows that even for all of the problems in the United States of America, millions of people all over the world still think this is the best place to live to accomplish their hopes and dreams. Too bad many of the people who have lived here for generations have been told differently.

Bless you, Christine, for bringing out these very poignant, logical, and necessary questions and comments that need to be addressed. I live in a county right outside of the nation's capital that is approximately 85% African American, but also the wealthiest black county in the U.S. Except for pockets inside our infamous Beltway, our neighborhoods are flourishing, even though our schools are overcrowded and underachieving in some areas.

Our residents have taken advantage of incentives over the past fifty years and advanced. They are frequent visitors to Surratt House, volunteer as guides and visitors' center workers, and attend most of our monthly educational programs -- in good numbers, not just one or two folks. And, some of them don't understand this issue of reparations -- they believe in taking advantage of what has been offered to advance their position in life and working hard to stay there.

One of the best examples that I can offer is a young lady whose mother works in one of our nature centers. She told me about six or so years ago that her 16-year-old daughter was very interested in the Lincoln assassination. I told her she was too young to be a volunteer guide, but that she should join the Surratt Society in order to get the Surratt Courier newsletter - which she did. Two years later, she became a guide, even when away at college in Baltimore. This year, she had to resign because she was accepted into the law school at University of California, Berkeley. BTW: Her mother is a single mom. To me, they are fine examples of people who could have fallen in the economic/social gutter, but decided to use what has been made available to them as well as their own hard work and determination to better themselves and those around them.

One other comment: I went to college in the mountains of western Maryland - on the fringes of Appalachia. When you enter into those mountain pockets of desperate poverty, it is a very depressing sight. I wish that some of our ultra-liberal complainers would take on projects to improve those situations and similar ones for other ethnic groups. One does not have to be descended from enslaved persons in order to face prejudice, poverty, and depression.

[My Name Is Kate]

Slavery was the history of the world since the beginning of humanity. Finally, along came the Founding Fathers, who wrote one of the greatest documents ever that envisioned liberating humanity and providing equal opportunity for all, without regard to race (the word was never mentioned in the original constitution), wealth, religion, etc. But because it was a revolutionary new idea, some compromises had to be made at the outset, and the reality of living conditions in the country did not match what the constitution envisioned. It took a civil war, with great loss of (primarily non-slave) lives to correct a major flaw in the constitution, and women had to fight a long, hard battle to be able to vote.

Instead of applauding the progress made over the centuries after the birth of America, some seek to destroy this country because it was not perfect at its founding, and this original sin can never be rectified, in their estimation. These people are continually looking to the past and finding fault, instead of looking to the future with optimism. We now have a president who has done more for black people than any president since Lincoln, but do these people support our president? They don't even acknowledge that he is the legitimate president of this country!