Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

GustD45 · 01-15-2019, 10:53 AM

Let us remember that Sgt. Corbett gave two different answers as to why he shot Booth. To his superior he said God told him to do it, but when he testified before the Military Tribunal he said he believed Booth was going to fire his carbine.

Since Mike has told of his journey on the Assassination I'll tell mine. My profession is that of an IT professional. I live and breathe IT. I saw Ken Burns documentary series on the Civil War so I did some cursory research on the battles and the generals. The fascinating figure at the center of things for me was Abraham Lincoln. In school you are taught small bits about him and that he was shot and killed right at the end of the war. Ken Burns' documentary told a lot more about Lincoln the man. Researching him brought me a plethora of information, but Roger's site helped me delve a lot deeper. I Learned Lincoln was a man like everyone else in his time, but when it came time to be a leader he stepped up and showed his greatness. His assassination has so many nuances. Mike has chosen the shadowy path of conspiracy at every turn. I'm afraid that produces little fact, in my opinion. There are archives and diaries and trial transcripts that paint a much clearer picture to my mind.

Thank you,
Gust

Warren · 01-15-2019, 03:47 PM

(01-14-2019 07:29 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(01-14-2019 11:36 AM)mikegriffith1 Wrote: Someone said that Corbett did not disobey orders when he fired at Booth. But Conger certainly believed Corbett had disobeyed orders. He put him under arrest and hauled him before Stanton. But, oddly enough, rather than being furious at losing the chance to interrogate Booth and put him on trial, Stanton brushed aside Corbett's alleged action with the comment that the rebel was dead and so the "patriot" should go free.

As a 21-year Army veteran, I was very surprised and intrigued to learn that when Conger, Baker, and Doherty supposedly tried to determine who had shot the man in the barn, they didn't conduct the long-recognized and effective procedure of checking the chambers and barrels of the soldiers' weapons; instead, they merely asked each man if he had fired the shot. When they asked Corbett, he said he'd fired the shot, yet, amazingly, they didn't confirm this by checking the chamber and barrel of his weapon.

I can tell you right now that Conger, Baker, and Doherty's failure to conduct this quick, standard, and effective procedure raises a big red flag for me and indicates that they were not really trying to find out who had fired the shot.

I suspect that if they had checked the chambers and barrels of the soldiers' weapons, they would have discovered what Conger probably already knew, namely, that none of the soldiers fired the shot. This would have proven either that some outsider snuck up within sniper range and shot the man in the barn or that Conger, Baker, or Doherty fired the shot.

Once again, cite your source(s) please. BTW: One of the first things I learned after being introduced to the real experts in the Lincoln assassination field was that there were no orders to take Booth alive. A friend in the law enforcement field later described that that is a ridiculous order in any case because the officers or troops conducting the manhunt are placed in harm's way because they will fail to return fire and then become a target themselves.

Exactly. That's why there were no orders to take Osama Bin Laden alive.

mikegriffith1 · (This post was last modified: 01-19-2019 08:52 AM by mikegriffith1.)

(01-15-2019 10:53 AM)GustD45 Wrote: Let us remember that Sgt. Corbett gave two different answers as to why he shot Booth. To his superior he said God told him to do it, but when he testified before the Military Tribunal he said he believed Booth was going to fire his carbine.

Since Mike has told of his journey on the Assassination I'll tell mine. My profession is that of an IT professional. I live and breathe IT. I saw Ken Burns documentary series on the Civil War so I did some cursory research on the battles and the generals. The fascinating figure at the center of things for me was Abraham Lincoln. In school you are taught small bits about him and that he was shot and killed right at the end of the war. Ken Burns' documentary told a lot more about Lincoln the man. Researching him brought me a plethora of information, but Roger's site helped me delve a lot deeper. I Learned Lincoln was a man like everyone else in his time, but when it came time to be a leader he stepped up and showed his greatness. His assassination has so many nuances. Mike has chosen the shadowy path of conspiracy at every turn. I'm afraid that produces little fact, in my opinion. There are archives and diaries and trial transcripts that paint a much clearer picture to my mind.

Thank you, Gust

Huh??? The "shadowy path of conspiracy"?! Umm, are you aware that the government's official version is a massive conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory that says that Confederate government officials, including Jefferson Davis, plotted to kill Lincoln, and that Booth acted on their orders and with their financial backing? The official conspiracy theory includes the highest Confederate officials and a vast network of accomplices and couriers that spanned from Richmond to Washington to Baltimore to New York, and even to Montreal. Are you aware of this fact?

So you can believe that Confederate leaders would engage in a massive conspiracy to kill a president and certain cabinet members, but you can't believe that some Federal officials would do so? Heard of the Dahlgren Raid?

Gene C · 01-19-2019, 09:36 AM

(01-19-2019 08:26 AM)mikegriffith1 Wrote:
(01-15-2019 10:53 AM)GustD45 Wrote: Mike has chosen the shadowy path of conspiracy at every turn. I'm afraid that produces little fact, in my opinion. There are archives and diaries and trial transcripts that paint a much clearer picture to my mind.

Huh??? The "shadowy path of conspiracy"?! Umm, are you aware that the government's official version is a massive conspiracy theory, a conspiracy theory that says that Confederate government officials, including Jefferson Davis, plotted to kill Lincoln, and that Booth acted on their orders and with their financial backing? The official conspiracy theory includes the highest Confederate officials and a vast network of accomplices and couriers that spanned from Richmond to Washington to Baltimore to New York, and even to Montreal. Are you aware of this fact?

So you can believe that Confederate leaders would engage in a massive conspiracy to kill a president and certain cabinet members, but you can't believe that some Federal officials would do so? Heard of the Dahlgren Raid?

I think someone is in denial, which reminds me of a song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iep50VXLVE

L Verge · 01-19-2019, 01:29 PM

Thanks for mentioning the Dahlgren Raid and throw in the Wistar one also, Mr. G. They may very well have been the catalyst that led to the Confederate plotting against the Union government and Lincoln (and again, remember that Lincoln was not the only target). Black Flag warfare had hit its peak, and it was deemed perfectly honorable to do unto others what they had done unto you.

Now, you may counter with the thought that the Dahlgren Raid and the supposed orders were fake, but greater authorities than you have testified to the authenticity of that letter. In fact, have you studied the espionage system that ran from Richmond to Montreal throughout the war? Have you read Come Retribution? While the authors admit up front that they can't put the final piece in the puzzle, they do offer some very excellent (and documented) work on the subject. And, I suspect that their research was done over more decades than you have been alive.

GustD45 · 01-22-2019, 12:57 AM

Mr. Hall, Mr. Gaddy, and Gen. Tidwell researched the Confederate Secret Service rather heavily (Correct me if I'm wrong Laurie). The failed Dahlgren Raid that Mike G seems to think I need to know I have read on Roger's site some time ago.

Mike. The conspiracy the US Government believed transpired in Lincoln's death was only natural as hostilities had still not subsided. The alleged government conspiracy does not bare fruit, but again you won't believe it because you are so steeped in the conspiracy nonsense.

L Verge · 01-22-2019, 03:37 PM

(01-22-2019 12:57 AM)GustD45 Wrote: Mr. Hall, Mr. Gaddy, and Gen. Tidwell researched the Confederate Secret Service rather heavily (Correct me if I'm wrong Laurie). The failed Dahlgren Raid that Mike G seems to think I need to know I have read on Roger's site some time ago.

Mike. The conspiracy the US Government believed transpired in Lincoln's death was only natural as hostilities had still not subsided. The alleged government conspiracy does not bare fruit, but again you won't believe it because you are so steeped in the conspiracy nonsense.

Each of those gentlemen were perfect for the job of investigating Confederate intelligence services. Two (Tidwell and Gaddy) spent their working years doing modern espionage work for the U.S. Dave Gaddy had a long interest in the CW (from the Southern perspective).

The General really went to work on the subject when he purchased property in the Northern Neck of Virginia that was said to be related to the underground system as well as Booth's escape. As for Mr. Hall, he had created a mountain of information before joining with Gaddy and Tidwell and also had a background in military and civilian investigations.

As all three would tell you, a good espionage operation leaves no clear trail, However, there are "signs" along the way that trained eyes know to look for and to analyze. Surratt House's James O. Hall Research Center is blessed to have file drawers upon file drawers of their work.

I would also like to mention one of our own forum members who has been in the game for years, quietly working with the triumvirate as well as continuing once they passed. That would be John Stanton aka Sarah Slater. He's done a lot more work in general - not just on Sarah. John was one of the last people to visit Mr. Hall in his final days, and John says that our mentor said as he left, "Go find them all!" John has been doing just that for over ten years now.

One of the drawbacks in getting Come Retribution accepted in its early days was the fact that fingers were pointed towards Richmond and many folks did not want to accept that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis could resort to such tactics. To me, at that stage of the game, it would be ridiculous not to consider that they would do anything to win. Of course, my bets are on Judah Benjamin as the man behind the screen.

P.S. For those of you who are old enough to remember (or know your history), Gen. Tidwell was the handler for the ill-fated mission of Gary Powers.

GustD45 · 01-22-2019, 03:53 PM

If I remember the history of that time didn't Judah Benjamin burn all of his papers before he died in Paris, France? And I'm sure Gen. Tidwell cringed every time Gary Powers came up.

RJNorton · 01-22-2019, 05:17 PM

(01-22-2019 03:53 PM)GustD45 Wrote: If I remember the history of that time didn't Judah Benjamin burn all of his papers before he died in Paris, France?

Yes, Gust. In his biography of Benjamin, Eli Evans writes:

"For reasons that puzzle historians, Benjamin burned his personal papers--some as he escaped from Richmond in 1865 and almost all of the rest just before he died--because he left only six scraps of paper at his death." One historian called him a "virtual incendiary."

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 01-22-2019 07:45 PM by L Verge.)

(01-22-2019 05:17 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-22-2019 03:53 PM)GustD45 Wrote: If I remember the history of that time didn't Judah Benjamin burn all of his papers before he died in Paris, France?

Yes, Gust. In his biography of Benjamin, Eli Evans writes:

"For reasons that puzzle historians, Benjamin burned his personal papers--some as he escaped from Richmond in 1865 and almost all of the rest just before he died--because he left only six scraps of paper at his death." One historian called him a "virtual incendiary."

The sums of Confederate money (good currency) that ended up on European soil in time for Benjamin's exile there is also very interesting.

As for the Gary Powers U-2 spy plane mission, Gen. Tidwell never went any further. I did some reading, however, and imo, that incident was a minor glitch in the whole Cold War era. Although the U.S. denied it at first, it was a spy mission with a super-duper plane designed to fly above Russian radar. Somehow, it either failed to do so or the Soviets were tipped off.

Powers took fire from more than one interceptor, and the last one hit and destroyed the tail of the plane, sending it in uncontrollable spinning. Powers could not eject because it would have severed both legs; supposedly, he failed to blow up the plane as instructed (no such orders were given); he also did not take the magic potion and kill himself (again, no such instructions to do so). He was sentenced to 10 years in a Soviet prison, but was swapped in two years. He then worked with the government and Lockheed to try and figure out what went wrong with the plane half way into a flight that was supposed to have him flying and taking photos the whole length of Russia.

He was later awarded numerous awards for his service to the U.S. He was killed in a news helicopter crash in the late-1970s.

His son now runs a Cold War Museum in Virginia, about 50 miles outside of D.C. He wrote a nice article for the Smithsonian some years ago to set the record straight.

One account that I read talks about him being interrogated by the Russians and refusing to give out information. His interrogator told him that he didn't have to -- "the American press will tell us everything." Fifty-plus years later, the press continues to blab (both actual truth and fake news).

mike86002000 · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019 12:47 PM by mike86002000.)

As for the Gary Powers U-2 spy plane mission, I remember it. I've also read about it extensively, including "Operation Overflight", by Gary Powers, himself. Although I think we are getting pretty far afield on a Lincoln assassination forum, the version of the story I remember varies so much from yours, that I must respond.
The incident caused the cancellation of important talks that were scheduled between Eisenhower and Khrushchev, and the Cold War continued for more than another 20 years.
Powers wrote that a near miss by a "SAM", a ground to air missile, blew up behind the U-2. It broke up, and he was out of position to eject from the spinning cockpit. As I remember, he also wrote that the Soviets were able to shoot him down by flying interceptors with a visual sighting on the U-2, on the same course, at a lower altitude. The SAMs' controlling radar tracked on the interceptors, and war heads were set to go off at the U-2's altitude. He said he saw a Soviet parachute coming down with him, and thought they shot down one of their own planes in the process of bringing him down.
Powers thought the Soviets may have gotten information about the U-2's operational altitude from none other than Lee Harvey Oswald, who could very well have had it from his work in the Marines. When he defected to the Soviet Union, he said he would give them important information.
The plane was equipped with a destruction device, controlled by a timer, that was supposed to blow the plane up after the pilot ejected. During the prefight checks, the timer failed tests. It would have blown up the plane before the pilot could get clear, if he used the ejector seat. The defective timer was replaced with one directly from the shop. Testing it in the plane would have delayed the flight, so Powers didn't. I doubt he trusted it, either.
When he was taken into custody by the Soviets, Powers had a poison pin, concealed in a coin, he had been issued, in a pocket of his flight suit. The Soviets displayed it as "spy gear".
Powers died in the crash of the "traffic 'copter" he was flying when it ran out of gas. I'm told his family find that suspicious.
Mike

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 01-23-2019 03:28 PM by L Verge.)

(01-23-2019 11:10 AM)mike86002000 Wrote: As for the Gary Powers U-2 spy plane mission, I remember it. I've also read about it extensively, including "Operation Overflight", by Gary Powers, himself. Although I think we are getting pretty far afield on a Lincoln assassination forum, the version of the story I remember varies so much from yours, that I must respond.
The incident caused the cancellation of important talks that were scheduled between Eisenhower and Khrushchev, and the Cold War continued for more than another 20 years.
Powers wrote that a near miss by a "SAM", a ground to air missile, blew up behind the U-2. It broke up, and he was out of position to eject from the spinning cockpit. As I remember, he also wrote that the Soviets were able to shoot him down by flying interceptors with a visual sighting on the U-2, on the same course, at a lower altitude. The SAMs' controlling radar tracked on the interceptors, and war heads were set to go off at the U-2's altitude. He said he saw a Soviet parachute coming down with him, and thought they shot down one of their own planes in the process of bringing him down.
Powers thought the Soviets may have gotten information about the U-2's operational altitude from none other than Lee Harvey Oswald, who could very well have had it from his work in the Marines. When he defected to the Soviet Union, he said he would give them important information.
The plane was equipped with a destruction device, controlled by a timer, that was supposed to blow the plane up after the pilot ejected. During the prefight checks, the timer failed tests. It would have blown up the plane before the pilot could get clear, if he used the ejector seat. The defective timer was replaced with one directly from the shop. Testing it in the plane would have delayed the flight, so Powers didn't. I doubt he trusted it, either.
When he was taken into custody by the Soviets, Powers had a poison pin, concealed in a coin, he had been issued, in a pocket of his flight suit. The Soviets displayed it as "spy gear".
Powers died in the crash of the "traffic 'copter" he was flying when it ran out of gas. I'm told his family find that suspicious.
Mike

Thanks for filling in the blanks, Mike, but I don't see that my version and your version vary all that much. However, I have never read Powers's own version, only that of his son and various other snippets along the way. I do remember Khrushchev being very upset that Eisenhower would not apologize. However, the Cold War had so many other facets for so long that I still would not count Powers's failed mission as a key component - only one that got a lot of press.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/195...2-incident
http://www.americanheritage.com/content/...ary-powers