Just read - no comments needed

[L Verge]

(06-14-2018 02:05 PM)RobertLC Wrote:  Herold Holzer presented a brilliant address at the Gettysburg’s Remembrance Day, November 19, 2017, during which he discussed issues related to various monuments.

I have included a link to the text of his remarks. I think his presentation has been discussed previously on this forum.

Bob


http://www.historynet.com/lincoln-monume...ddress.htm

Thank you so much for locating this and posting it, Bob, and I urge everyone to read it -- especially after another poster "credited" Harold with a rather abbreviated and totally out-of-context remark.

If you find the American Historical Association's statement on the Confederate statue issue, you will also see that they have a more temperate opinion on using history to determine individual statues' fates. Most of the professors cited previously have books on modern Southern history, and it would be interesting to see how their full text might handle the debate - not just one isolated quote.

And yes, I know how to be selective when choosing citations also. For instance, a friend sent me a piece yesterday on the values of the Cherokee nation. What caught my eye was a Cherokee warning: "What one fears one destroys."

Rather sad that it is deemed by some more practical to destroy evidence of the past rather than to learn from it.

[Rsmyth]

I guess you sure talking about me Laurie. I believe as Holzer has suggested that these icons be placed on battlefields or in museums or taught in history class. If you believe they serve any good purpose on display on the village green erected by the DOC some 50 years after the war at the height of racial divide in this country and the second resurgence of the KKK for only one purpose, to raise awareness of white supremacy, then discussion on this topic is useless.

[L Verge]

(06-14-2018 04:08 PM)Rsmyth Wrote:  I guess you sure talking about me Laurie. I believe as Holzer has suggested that these icons be placed on battlefields or in museums or taught in history class. If you believe they serve any good purpose on display on the village green erected by the DOC some 50 years after the war at the height of racial divide in this country and the second resurgence of the KKK for only one purpose, to raise awareness of white supremacy, then discussion on this topic is useless.

If you thought for one minute that you were going to change my mind on the fate of the Confederate symbols, Rich, then this lengthy battle of wits was useless from the beginning.

I knew the history of how many of these monuments came to be a long time ago -- college and later training in the 1960s and 70s. That did not then (when I was actually a liberal college student!) nor now change my opinion that they are a part of our history that needs to be understood and that destroying them or tucking them away where folks may have to pay to go see them will not solve the racial divide within the U.S. (and other countries).

I do not appreciate most modern art, and I think Picasso's work is a sham. However, I am not going to make it a project to have all of his canvases (and others of that ilk) destroyed. Someone remind me - didn't Picasso have political leanings that would offend me...?

[My Name Is Kate]

I agree that there is something not quite right about putting up statues to people whose main legacy is that they believed in slavery and were willing to sacrifice the unity of this country to preserve it. If that is true of Jefferson Davis and some others, why not remove their statues, but also remove statues of General Sherman and General Sheridan, who used scorched earth tactics against Southern civilians? The potential problem with that is, President Lincoln surely must have approved and endorsed what Sherman and Sheridan did, so should all statues of Lincoln be removed too? Or does the simple fact of living in the South and believing in slavery, even if one never owned any slaves, mean it is okay to wipe such people off the face of the earth? Do they not also have a "spark of divinity?"

[David Lockmiller]

The Doolittle Raid, on Saturday, April 18, 1942, was an air raid by the United States on the Japanese capital Tokyo and other places on the island of Honshu during World War II, the first air operation to strike the Japanese Home Islands. It demonstrated that the Japanese mainland was vulnerable to American air attack, served as retaliation for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and provided an important boost to American morale. The bombing raid killed about 50 people, including civilians, and injured 400.

Sixteen B-25B Mitchell medium bombers were launched without fighter escort from the U.S. Navy's aircraft carrier USS Hornet (CV-8) deep in the Western Pacific Ocean, each with a crew of five men. The plan called for them to bomb military targets in Japan, and to continue westward to land in China.

After the raid, the Imperial Japanese Army conducted a massive sweep through the eastern coastal provinces of China, in an operation now known as the Zhejiang-Jiangxi campaign, searching for the surviving American airmen and inflicting retribution on the Chinese who aided them, in an effort to prevent this part of China from being used again for an attack on Japan. The reprisals cost an estimated 250,000 lives.

Source: Wikipedia -- the Doolittle Raid

[Gene C]

This short video from CNN. It's a promotional video for a another (upcoming ?) TV show, United Shades of America. I've never seen the show, looked interesting to me.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2018/05/21...ed-shades/

[davg2000]

Our appraisal of humans, and certainly this means humans that we erect statues of, should be based on an understanding of the causes and results of their actions, as well as the actions themselves. This understanding is the context that Professor Holzer values. Why not explain the statues at their sites—technologies exist for this—instead of destroying or defacing them? New Orleans mayor Mitch Landrieu’s decision was to move the statues to another place but not to destroy them. His address eloquently provided the reasons for his actions: https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a5...onuments/. Although I support Landrieu’s actions, I think Holzer’s choice is the better one. Let’s confront ignorance with education.

[DannyW]

(06-07-2018 07:01 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Why no comments? What this country needs right now is more symbols of diversity. In all this time since the end of the war people are still judged by the color of their skin. Removing these relics of the lost cause, slavery, racism is one small step towards the end of glorifying that painful part of our history. We should not be trying to drum up support for keeping these reminders for children, with slaves in their ancestry, to walk past on their way to Jefferson Davis High School.

https://mississippitoday.org/2018/06/14/...age-award/
I did not know this about our Governor. He’s very adamant about not having a flag vote saying we did this before back in early 2000s. He’s a good Republican.

[AussieMick]

And , as we all know, Dixie was one of (if not 'the') favorite tunes of Lincoln. I assume that some people would now prefer it never be played.

[L Verge]

(06-15-2018 01:51 PM)DannyW Wrote:  

(06-07-2018 07:01 AM)Rsmyth Wrote:  Why no comments? What this country needs right now is more symbols of diversity. In all this time since the end of the war people are still judged by the color of their skin. Removing these relics of the lost cause, slavery, racism is one small step towards the end of glorifying that painful part of our history. We should not be trying to drum up support for keeping these reminders for children, with slaves in their ancestry, to walk past on their way to Jefferson Davis High School.

https://mississippitoday.org/2018/06/14/...age-award/
I did not know this about our Governor. He’s very adamant about not having a flag vote saying we did this before back in early 2000s. He’s a good Republican.

After he posted this, Danny (a school teacher and good student of the Civil War) sent me the following article. He agrees that it's time for all Americans to learn more history and to learn all sides of an issue. This is a little long, but worth the read - since some disparaging things have been said about Gen Forrest:

Forrest : Memphis' first White Civil Rights Advocate

Lt. General Nathan Bedford Forrest (1821-1877) was a renowned Southern military leader and strategist during the War Between the States. During the Civil War, Forrest's Confederate cavalry wreaked havoc among Union forces throughout the mid-South. He gained worldwide fame from his many battlefield successes, but the wartime heroics have overshadowed his post-war work as a community leader and civil rights advocate. He fought fiercely on the battlefield, yet was a compassionate man off the field. After the war, Forrest worked tirelessly to build the New South and to promote employment for black Southerners. Forrest was known near and far as a great general, and was a well-respected citizen by both blacks and whites alike.
The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (predecessor to the NAACP) was organized by Southern blacks after the war to promote black voting rights, etc. One of their early conventions was held in Memphis and Mr. Forrest was invited to be the guest speaker, the first white man ever to be invited to speak to the Association.

After the Civil War, General Forrest made a speech to the Memphis City Council (then called the Board of Aldermen). In this speech he said that there was no reason that the black man could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or any other job equal to whites. They were part of our community and should be involved and employed as such just like anyone else. In another speech to Federal authorities, Forrest said that many of the ex-slaves were skilled artisans and needed to be employed and that those skills needed to be taught to the younger workers. If not, then the next generation of blacks would have no skills and could not succeed and would become dependent on the welfare of society.

Forrest's words went unheeded. The Memphis & Selma Railroad was organized by Forrest after the war to help rebuild the South's transportation and to build the 'new South'. Forrest took it upon himself to hire blacks as architects, construction engineers and foremen, train engineers and conductors, and other high level jobs. In the North, blacks were prohibited from holding such jobs. When the Civil War began, Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army. All 44 agreed. One later deserted; the other 43 served faithfully until the end of the war.

Though they had many chances to leave, they chose to remain loyal to the South and to Forrest. Part of General Forrest's command included his own Escort Company, his Green Berets, made up of the very best soldiers available. This unit, which varied in size from 40-90 men, was the elite of the cavalry. Eight of these picked men were black soldiers and all served gallantly and bravely throughout the war. All were armed with at least 2 pistols and a rifle. Most also carried two additional pistols in saddle holsters. At war's end, when Forrest's cavalry surrendered in May 1865, there were 65 black troopers on the muster roll. Of the soldiers who served under him, Forrest said of the black troops: Finer Confederates never fought.

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.

Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

Danny told me that the Order of the Pole Bearers was the precursor to the NAACP in Memphis.

[Gene C]

I had to look at that last line twice.

At fist I thought it said Order of the Polar Bears.

[L Verge]

(06-16-2018 09:08 AM)Gene C Wrote:  I had to look at that last line twice.

At fist I thought it said Order of the Polar Bears.

Those polar bears wouldn't last long in Tennessee heat!

I also apologize for not including the source of this article that Danny sent. It is from the Forrest County [TN] Historical Society.

[David Lockmiller]

(06-15-2018 07:33 PM)L Verge Wrote:  When the Civil War began, Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army. All 44 agreed. One later deserted; the other 43 served faithfully until the end of the war. [Forrest probably promised freedom to these particular slaves and their families. If they had deserted, their families would have remained slaves.] Though they had many chances to leave, they chose to remain loyal to the South and to Forrest. Part of General Forrest's command included his own Escort Company, his Green Berets, made up of the very best soldiers available. This unit, which varied in size from 40-90 men, was the elite of the cavalry. Eight of these picked men were black soldiers and all served gallantly and bravely throughout the war. At war's end, when Forrest's cavalry surrendered in May 1865, there were 65 black troopers on the muster roll. Of the soldiers who served under him, Forrest said of the black troops: Finer Confederates never fought.

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union . . . .

Ladies and Gentlemen, . . . I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. . . I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

Danny told me that the Order of the Pole Bearers was the precursor to the NAACP in Memphis.

President Lincoln's Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment (March 17, 1865)

There are but few aspects of this great war on which I have not already expressed my views by speaking or writing. There is one---the recent effort of our erring bretheren, sometimes so-called, to employ the slaves in their armies. The great question with them has been: "Will the negro fight for them?'' They ought to know better than we; and, doubtless, do know better than we. I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever [I] hear any one, arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.

There is one thing about the negroes fighting for the rebels which we can know as well [as] they can; and that is that they can not, at [the] same time fight in their armies, and stay at home and make bread for them. And this being known and remembered we can have but little concern whether they become soldiers or not. I am rather in favor of the measure; and would at any time if I could, have loaned them a vote to carry it. We have to reach the bottom of the insurgent resources; and that they employ, or seriously think of employing, the slaves as soldiers, gives us glimpses of the bottom. Therefore I am glad of what we learn on this subject.

[David Lockmiller]

The New York Times reports today:

A new exhibit at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s palatial mountaintop plantation, is dedicated to Sally Hemings, the enslaved woman who bore children with the founding father.

It’s the culmination of a 25-year effort to grapple with the reality of slavery in the home of one of liberty’s most eloquent champions. And it deals a final blow to two centuries of ignoring or covering up what amounted to an open secret: Jefferson’s relationship with a slave, which spanned nearly four decades, from his time abroad in Paris to his death.

I did not read much of the New York Times story but the top reader comment to the story stated the following historical information:

"Sally was 14 at the time. Sally was pregnant by Thomas Jefferson only a few months later.

Whatever we do, let's not talk about Sally Hemings and Jefferson as if it is some kind of glorious romance. Scratch the surface and everything about her story is sad -- including Jefferson's promise that Sally's children would grow up free. (They didn't.) A similar figure is Sacagawea, basically sold into marriage at 14 to a man she didn't know and pregnant by 15, who then was forced by her husband onto the Lewis and Clark expedition with her 2-month-old child."

[L Verge]

(06-16-2018 10:24 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(06-15-2018 07:33 PM)L Verge Wrote:  When the Civil War began, Forrest offered freedom to 44 of his slaves if they would serve with him in the Confederate army. All 44 agreed. One later deserted; the other 43 served faithfully until the end of the war. [Forrest probably promised freedom to these particular slaves and their families. If they had deserted, their families would have remained slaves.] Though they had many chances to leave, they chose to remain loyal to the South and to Forrest. Part of General Forrest's command included his own Escort Company, his Green Berets, made up of the very best soldiers available. This unit, which varied in size from 40-90 men, was the elite of the cavalry. Eight of these picked men were black soldiers and all served gallantly and bravely throughout the war. At war's end, when Forrest's cavalry surrendered in May 1865, there were 65 black troopers on the muster roll. Of the soldiers who served under him, Forrest said of the black troops: Finer Confederates never fought.

Forrest was a brilliant cavalryman and courageous soldier. As author Jack Hurst writes: a man possessed of physical valor perhaps unprecedented among his countrymen, as well as, ironically, a man whose social attitudes may well have changed farther in the direction of racial enlightenment over the span of his lifetime than those of most American historical figures.

When Forrest died in 1877 it is noteworthy that his funeral in Memphis was attended not only by a throng of thousands of whites but by hundreds of blacks as well. The funeral procession was over two miles long and was attended by over 10,000 area residents, including 3000 black citizens paying their respects.

Forrest's speech to the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association July 5, 1875.

A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union . . . .

Ladies and Gentlemen, . . . I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. . . I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)

Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.

Danny told me that the Order of the Pole Bearers was the precursor to the NAACP in Memphis.

President Lincoln's Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment (March 17, 1865)

There are but few aspects of this great war on which I have not already expressed my views by speaking or writing. There is one---the recent effort of our erring bretheren, sometimes so-called, to employ the slaves in their armies. The great question with them has been: "Will the negro fight for them?'' They ought to know better than we; and, doubtless, do know better than we. I may incidentally remark, however, that having, in my life, heard many arguments,---or strings of words meant to pass for arguments,---intended to show that the negro ought to be a slave, that if he shall now really fight to keep himself a slave, it will be a far better argument why [he] should remain a slave than I have ever before heard. He, perhaps, ought to be a slave, if he desires it ardently enough to fight for it. Or, if one out of four will, for his own freedom, fight to keep the other three in slavery, he ought to be a slave for his selfish meanness. I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever [I] hear any one, arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.

There is one thing about the negroes fighting for the rebels which we can know as well [as] they can; and that is that they can not, at [the] same time fight in their armies, and stay at home and make bread for them. And this being known and remembered we can have but little concern whether they become soldiers or not. I am rather in favor of the measure; and would at any time if I could, have loaned them a vote to carry it. We have to reach the bottom of the insurgent resources; and that they employ, or seriously think of employing, the slaves as soldiers, gives us glimpses of the bottom. Therefore I am glad of what we learn on this subject.

Just an aside: This speech was made at the National Hotel in DC, I believe, at the same time (March 17, 1865) that Booth's men had planned to abduct the President on the outskirts of town.

---

(06-17-2018 10:35 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  The New York Times reports today:

A new exhibit at Monticello, Thomas Jefferson’s palatial mountaintop plantation, is dedicated to Sally Hemings, the enslaved woman who bore children with the founding father.

It’s the culmination of a 25-year effort to grapple with the reality of slavery in the home of one of liberty’s most eloquent champions. And it deals a final blow to two centuries of ignoring or covering up what amounted to an open secret: Jefferson’s relationship with a slave, which spanned nearly four decades, from his time abroad in Paris to his death.

I did not read much of the New York Times story but the top reader comment to the story stated the following historical information:

"Sally was 14 at the time. Sally was pregnant by Thomas Jefferson only a few months later.

Whatever we do, let's not talk about Sally Hemings and Jefferson as if it is some kind of glorious romance. Scratch the surface and everything about her story is sad -- including Jefferson's promise that Sally's children would grow up free. (They didn't.) A similar figure is Sacagawea, basically sold into marriage at 14 to a man she didn't know and pregnant by 15, who then was forced by her husband onto the Lewis and Clark expedition with her 2-month-old child."

I wonder if the New York Times has ever taken this history into the 21st century and covered the current human trafficking of young girls from all over the world (including the U.S.) that is prolific today -- especially on the streets of their city? Again, the purpose of history to me is to correct the future after learning from the bad parts of the past. Stop pointing the finger at folks (of all races and creeds) who have been dead for over a century and start working to correct the present and the future.