Extra Credit Questions

[Gene C]

(05-11-2024 04:03 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  I guess I must have missed where Burlingame wrote that but for Sarah Bush Johnston, Lincoln would never have been elected president. Better luck next time.

As for reading Burlingame, or any other Lincoln biographer for that matter, unlike you, I don't hold any author (even ones I admire) as infallible. When I quote from an author, it is to buttress my point. Try and understand that part, David. MY POINT! I think at this stage of my life, I know as much about Lincoln as any of them ever will.

Best
Rob

Under these circumstances, it seems a shame since you "know as much about Lincoln as any of them ever will" that these modern day Lincoln biographers don't quote you or reference your writing any more than they do.

[Rob Wick]

Gene,

Genius is rarely recognized in one's own lifetime. Besides I know at what level I operate even if others don't.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

I, for one, am now glad that we had this online conversation (although not initially) and reached the correct conclusion when all was said and done. I did my research and got the correct answers to questions that were raised.

I am not a great reader, even of Lincoln books. And, although I purchased Professor Burlingame's two volume set of Abraham Lincoln: A Life at full price ($125, as I recall) at a fancy bookstore on Union Square in San Francisco, I did not read much of the first volume and concentrated my reading on the Presidential years for the most part and then usually on specific subject matter such as the "Dakota 38." This became a hot topic in San Francisco when a "progressive" elected school board decided they were going to make "corrections" to history by renaming specific schools for bad character considerations, including President Lincoln authorizing the execution of 38 Dakota Sioux. Native Americans had been universally wronged by the "manifest destiny" policy of white Americans, with thousand-year cultures destroyed and lands permanently taken and countless lives destroyed in the process.

I knew vaguely that Lincoln's step-mother had played a significant role in Abraham Lincoln's early life. But Rob forced me to research the details. I was rewarded for doing so. What a magnificent writer and historical researcher is Professor Michael Burlingame. In one page and one paragraph he documented the relative importance that Lincoln's step-mother played in Lincoln's immediate and future life.

See the post that I made yesterday in order to refresh your mind and thoughts to the argument made by Professor Burlingame. One line stood out for me: "When her new husband insisted that she sell some of her furniture, “saying it was too fine for them to keep,” she refused to do so." This was big, permanent change in living for the family. The result of this change: "After replacing the crude puncheon tables and stools, she swiftly effected other improvements: a floor was laid down, doors and windows were installed." A second example portending great benefit for Lincoln's life was when his step-mother overcame his father's previous objections: "Reading for the young Abraham was not only permitted, it was encouraged."

An example of Professor Burlingame's detailed scholarship is the following: She was a good cook, though her culinary skill was wasted on Abe, whom she described as “a moderate Eater” who obediently “ate what was set before him, making no complaint: he seemed Careless about this.” [Such gustatory indifference persisted into adulthood. According to a White House secretary, Lincoln during his presidency “was one of the most abstemious of men; the pleasures of the table had few attractions for him.”]

And, "hats off" to the writing of Doris Kearns Goodwin in previous post that same day: "Lincoln’s early intimacy with tragic loss reinforced a melancholy temperament. Yet his familiarity with pain and personal disappointment imbued him with a strength and understanding of human frailty. Moreover, Lincoln possessed a life-affirming humor and profound resilience that lightened his despair and fortified his will."

In short, I am glad I went through this experience, although at times it was distasteful to me.

[Rob Wick]

David,

Sorry, you found this experience distasteful, although you remain as far from right as you ever were. Your original point (for those with short memories) was that without the influence of Sarah Bush Johnston, Lincoln would never have become president. Yet you shied away from that after being called on it by me. Then you point to Michael Burlingame as a "proof" that Sarah played a major role in Abraham's life (a point, I should remind you, I did not dispute). I'm happy that you were forced into doing some research. The purpose of this forum is to bring out aspects of Lincoln's entire life. However, I didn't challenge your comment because I like doing so, but rather for those who come here seeking correct information about Lincoln in the hope that they will continue their educational journey.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(05-12-2024 03:49 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  David,

Your original point (for those with short memories) was that without the influence of Sarah Bush Johnston, Lincoln would never have become president. . . . Then you point to Michael Burlingame as a "proof" that Sarah played a major role in Abraham's life (a point, I should remind you, I did not dispute). . . . The purpose of this forum is to bring out aspects of Lincoln's entire life. . . .

Best
Rob

The Plaintiff Sarah Lincoln, Step Mother of President Abraham Lincoln, in Sarah Lincoln v. Rob Wick, rests.

[AussieMick]

Having started this discussion may I suggest that all this reminds me of a "song"

(I doubt very much that the following has appeared on this forum)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z04y_9dBhjM

[David Lockmiller]

I was preparing a response last night to counter the anticipated argument when I came across an entry about Lincoln's stepmother being the one who persuaded her husband to move to Decatur, Illinois and be near relatives. One might argue that but for this particular accomplishment of persuasion by Lincoln's stepmother, history would have been quite different.

Lincoln made his first political speech in the town square of Decatur, Illinois. Lincoln was first "elected to office" as Captain of the local military unit in the Black Hawk War by his fellow citizen soldiers. A fellow soldier, Stuart, led to his becoming a lawyer.

The point of this argument is that if a single necessary link in the chain of events of history does not occur, then the chain is broken and, quite possibly, there is no President Abraham Lincoln written about in any of the history books.

I add a quick edit because I could not get up at the time to find a quote about Stuart and Lincoln becoming a lawyer -- my cat, she was asleep on my lap: "Without Stuart's mentoring, Lincoln probably would not have become a lawyer." (Years later, Stuart predicted that he would be remembered only as "as the man who advised Mr. Lincoln to study law and lent him his law books.") [Abraham Lincoln, A Life, Vol. One, page 89.]

[RJNorton]

(05-13-2024 09:44 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  The point of this argument is that if a single necessary link in the chain of events of history does not occur, then the chain is broken and, quite possibly, there is no President Abraham Lincoln written about in any of the history books.

I can think of several instances in which things worked out well for Lincoln. David, I am not sure if my post here is the kind of thing you are referring to.

When Lincoln was a young lad in Kentucky, he apparently almost drowned. His young friend, Austin Gollaher, stated, "I once saved Lincoln's life...While we were wandering up and down the little stream called Knob Creek Abe said: 'Right up there' - pointing to the east - 'we saw a covey of partridges yesterday. Let's go over and get some of them.' The stream was swollen and was too wide for us to jump across. Finally, we saw a narrow foot-log, and we concluded to try it. It was narrow, but Abe said, 'Let's coon it.'

I went first and reached the other side all right. Abe went about half-way across, when he got scared and began trembling. I hollered to him, 'Don't look down nor up nor sideways, but look right at me and hold on tight!' But he fell off into the creek, and, as the water was about seven or eight feet deep, and I could not swim, and neither could Abe, I knew it would do no good for me to go in after him.

So I got a stick - a long water sprout - and held it out to him. He came up, grabbed with both hands, and I put the stick into his hands. He clung to it, and I pulled him out on the bank, almost dead. I got him by the arms and shook him well, and then rolled him on the ground, when the water poured out of his mouth."

In 1818 Lincoln was kicked in the head by a horse at Gordon's gristmill located about two miles from the Lincolns' cabin near Little Pigeon Creek in Indiana. Lincoln was knocked out. I think it's sure possible to have permanent brain damage (or worse) when kicked in the head by a horse, but Lincoln recovered OK.

Lincoln served in the Black Hawk War. Fortunately, the worst that happened was that he (according to Lincoln) "had a good many bloody struggles with the mosquitoes."

Lincoln almost fought a sword duel in 1842, but a truce was called right as the fighting commenced. Who knows what might have happened if this event had continued. (I admit being killed in a sword duel was very rare.)

[David Lockmiller]

(05-13-2024 06:20 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(05-13-2024 09:44 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  The point of this argument is that if a single necessary link in the chain of events of history does not occur, then the chain is broken and, quite possibly, there is no President Abraham Lincoln written about in any of the history books.

Lincoln almost fought a sword duel in 1842, but a truce was called right as the fighting commenced. Who knows what might have happened if this event had continued. (I admit being killed in a sword duel was very rare.)

Roger, I was thinking more of major events on the long pathway to the presidency, and even long before a simple thought in that direction had occurred to Lincoln.

For instance, as I recall, his first political speech at a very young age was when he spoke to a small group of citizens at the Decatur town square and expressed his support for a particular candidate and explained his reasoning for that support.

And, his first personal political "election" victory was being made Captain of the local military unit in the Blackhawk War over another local man with actual military experience, as I recall. He had gained the approval of his fellow man for his character and recognized abilities for the first time. He was justifiably proud of this event for his whole life.

And, as a lawyer he learned to make well-reasoned honest, cogent arguments to either a court or a political audience.

It is the move to Decatur, Illinois that began this long political career. And, it was always the United States Constitution and the institution of democracy that were his guiding lights.

As for the sword duel, Lincoln faced the necessity of saving Mary from the results of her "sharp" tongue targeting a short-tempered man and political figure who felt himself publicly insulted by her anonymous words in the local newspaper and "demanded satisfaction" from the perpetrator by deadly duel. Lincoln took responsibility for Mary's offensive words and chose the unwieldy broadsword as the weapon of choice, the right of the challenged party. Lincoln asked Mary to never mention the subject again.

[Rob Wick]

Evidently, the affiant sayeth more.

Quote:One might argue that but for this particular accomplishment of persuasion by Lincoln's stepmother, history would have been quite different.

Or not. One could easily argue that when Lincoln came of age, even if the family had stayed in Spencer County, he would have left the farm and moved somewhere else. The fact that he went to Decatur was tangential to the fact that he made a speech there, a speech, it should be noted, that has no strong provenance. Its only source is John Hanks, who also claimed that when Lincoln was in New Orleans he said he would hit slavery hard. Of course, John Hanks wasn't in New Orleans at that time. Neither Ida Tarbell nor Albert Beveridge even mentions the speech, although William E. Barton does briefly. Even if Lincoln made the speech, so what? He could have easily made a speech in Gentryville or any other town in Indiana or Illinois. The speech, if it happened, just happened to be made in Decatur.

Quote:The point of this argument is that if a single necessary link in the chain of events of history does not occur, then the chain is broken and, quite possibly, there is no President Abraham Lincoln written about in any of the history books.

Nonsense. Just because one path is closed off doesn't mean another wouldn't open and would lead to the same result. As Roger pointed out, if being kicked in the head by a horse had led to a traumatic brain injury, THAT would have changed the path of history. Moving to another state and being elected captain during the Black Hawk War led to what we know happened, but it doesn't pass the "but for" test. "But for those events, Lincoln's life would (or would not) have taken the path it did."

You provide no evidence that Lincoln wouldn't have become a lawyer had he not volunteered for the war, besides Burlingame's opinion of the influence of John T. Stuart. One could easily argue the opposite. Lincoln's interest in the law came about when he was in Indiana, thanks to the loan of an Indiana Statutes book from David Turnham and being around Judge John Pitcher. Had he not had the initial interest, which came from them, meeting Stuart would have accomplished nothing since it is impossible to know if he would have then decided to study law.

The fact of the matter is most of our lives are ruled by chance. The mere fact that something does or doesn't happen rarely means a life would either be different or the same. Given Lincoln's deep interest in speaking, studying, and reading he could have lived in any state of the union and became what he did. To be sure, all the events of a person's life play a role in who they become, but to say that the only way Lincoln became who he was is due to one path and one path only is absurd.

Best
Rob

[David Lockmiller]

(05-13-2024 08:19 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Nonsense. Just because one path is closed off doesn't mean another wouldn't open and would lead to the same result.

The fact of the matter is most of our lives are ruled by chance. The mere fact that something does or doesn't happen rarely means a life would either be different or the same.

Best
Rob

At one time in his political life, Lincoln thought about accepting the position of Governor of the Oregon territory.

Mary put her foot down and said no.

If he had done so, he would have lost his requisite close political base of support in Illinois. This asset was critical to Lincoln being elected President of the United States. The mistake to his political career would have been irreparable.

And, his practice and studies as a lawyer were necessary, even imperative, to his presidential success. How would he have responded as President to Chief Justice Taney on the constitutional issue of habeas corpus without the legal training and experience to do so?

I wrote this and then consulted Professor Burlingame's work on the subject (See Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol. One, page 307):

[Lincoln] was offered the more lucrative and prestigious governorship of Oregon (paying $3000 per year), which tempted him. John Todd Stuart and Lincoln were in Bloomington attending Court when a special messenger arrived informing him of the Oregon governorship offer. When Lincoln asked Stuart if he should accept, his former law partner said he “thought it was a good thing: that he could go out there and in all likelihood come back from there as a Senator when the State was admitted.” Lincoln “finally made up his mind that he would accept the place if Mary would consent to go. But Mary would not consent to go out there.” Joshua Speed later told Stuart “that Lincoln wrote to him that if he [Speed] would go along, he would give him any appointment out there which he might be able to control. Lincoln evidently thought that if Speed and Speed’s wife were to go along, it would be an inducement for Mary to change her mind and consent to go. But Speed thought he could not go, and so the matter didn’t come to anything. "During her husband’s presidency Mary Lincoln “did not fail to remind him that her advice, when he was wavering, had restrained him from ‘throwing himself away’ on a distant territorial governorship.” She “had had enough of frontier life.”

And so Lincoln returned to Springfield. Shortly after his defeat by Butterfield, while pacing the floor of his room, he suddenly stopped and “looking up to the ceiling in his peculiar manner” told a friend: “I am worth about three Thousand Dollars. I have a little property paid for and owe no debts. It is perhaps well that I did not get this appointment. I will go home and resume my practice at which I can make a living – and perhaps some day the People may have use for me.”

Some thought Lincoln’s defeat a blessing in disguise. Richard W. Thompson believed that Lincoln’s failure to win the commissionership of the General Land Office was “most fortunate both for him and the country.” If he had been successful, Thompson speculated, he would have stayed on in Washington, “separated from the people of Illinois,” sinking “down into the grooves of a routine office, so that he would never have reached the eminence he afterwards achieved as a lawyer, or have become President of the United States."

[Gene C]

Interesting discussion.
I think you are both right to a certain extent.
Lincoln seems to me to address this issue in his farewell address in Springfield.

"I now leave, not knowing when, or whether ever, I may return, with a task before me greater than that which rested upon Washington.
Without the assistance of that Divine Being, who ever attended him, I cannot succeed.
With that assistance, I cannot fail.

Trusting in Him, who can go with me, and remain with you and be every where for good, let us confidently hope that all will yet be well. To His care commending you, as I hope in your prayers you will commend me, I bid you an affectionate farewell."

[David Lockmiller]

(05-14-2024 05:35 AM)Gene C Wrote:  Interesting discussion.
I think you are both right to a certain extent.

Gene, I made a little alteration in my previous post.

I thought I would emphasize a specific point that I have been trying very hard to make. Sometimes, if one makes a serious mistake of choice, one cannot recover what might have been.

David

[RJNorton]

This is one professor's opinion on an incident that apparently occurred in New Salem in 1834. The professor seems to think Lincoln's immediate political future was perhaps at risk.

Professor Michael Nelson wrote the following:

Paine and Volney's shared disdain—and that of Lincoln's new friends—for a doctrine that tarred people with sins they were foreordained to commit confirmed Lincoln in his contempt for the religion of his youth. In 1834, at age 25, he wrote a long essay attacking the divine character of the Bible and of doctrines as various as the Virgin Birth and the Trinity in hopes of having it published. The owner of the store in which Lincoln brandished his manuscript, Samuel Hill, seized it from Lincoln's hand and threw it in the fire. Hill's concern was less religious heresy than political viability. Lincoln was a candidate for the state legislature. Thanks in no small measure to Hill's saving him from himself, he was elected.

https://web.archive.org/web/200901230336...olns-soul/

I would be curious what forum members think of Professor Nelson's statement.

[Rob Wick]

David,

One of your biggest weaknesses is your seemingly obsessive view of each of the trees, resulting in your failure to see the forest. Focusing on individual chapters of Lincoln's life may, as Roger pointed out earlier with his illustration of Lincoln being kicked in the head, be helpful in discussing his path, but in most instances, they only reveal a false premise. Just because Lincoln turned down the territorial governorship that didn't lead to his becoming president, just as if he had accepted it that wouldn't have precluded it.

There is a Latin saying that most lawyers learn very quickly, i.e., post hoc ergo propter hoc, which means “after this, therefore because of this.” According to the Cornell University Law School, "The phrase expresses the logical fallacy of assuming that one thing caused another merely because the first thing preceded the other. In other words, it is the fallacy of inferring a causal relationship from a temporal one."

Just because Lincoln followed a path that resulted in his election as president, that does not preclude other paths that could have led to the same result.

Roger, as for your question, I don't know how much it would have affected Lincoln's plans. It seems to me that people who knew him in New Salem knew of his skepticism where religion was concerned, yet he never had much trouble being reelected to the Illinois state legislature. I have never accepted that he overcame his deep skepticism for organized religion, although he certainly held a strong individual faith. Plus, his battle with Peter Carmichael didn't seem to affect his political fortunes. That said, it's one thing for a local community to look past someone's so-called "shortcomings" but quite another to translate that to a national audience, especially given the prominence of religion in most people's lives. Besides, the only thing keeping us from knowing if an atheist or agnostic ever served as president is their willingness to lie about it.

Best
Rob