Blowing up the White House - any interest?

[SSlater]

I mean "Blowing up the White House" in 1865, not today.
Since Atzerodt told us what he knew - and he was never right - could there have been a different plan? I think so.

[Steve]

(10-24-2017 11:50 PM)SSlater Wrote:  I mean "Blowing up the White House" in 1865, not today.
Since Atzerodt told us what he knew - and he was never right - could there have been a different plan? I think so.

Can you elaborate more on what you're suggesting about Azterodt's claims?

[Gene C]

I'm interested.

I remember reading Atzerodt made more than one confession. Is there an on-line source for these?

Are they in "The Lincoln Assassination : The Evidence" ?
I don't have that book, it's a bit expensive, and I haven't found one for a $1 yet at the library book sale.

[RJNorton]

Gene, here is one of them. This is the one that Joan Chaconas discovered about 40 years ago. The part about mining the White House comes near the end.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

James Wood sometimes called Mosby boarded with Mrs. Murray an Irish woman on the corner of 9 & F St. in a three story house, front on the upper end of the P.O. and South End of Patent Office - with basement entrance on the left side going up 9th St. from Avenue. He was a little over six feet, black hair, smooth round face, gray coat black pants, & spring coat mixed with white & gray. Saw him last time on Friday evening about 5 o'ck with Booth. He sent for letters to the post office with James Hall. He was brought from New York. Surratt told me so. He said he had been a prisoner in Balte, near the depot. He was arrested for whipping a negro woman. Mosby was Wood's nick name - did not know him by any other name than mentioned. Gust. Powell now arrested in Old Capitol was one of the party. He went also by name of Gustavus Spencer, Surratt and Spencer came from Richmond, together just after it had fallen.

James Donaldson, a low chunky man about 23 or 24 years of age, small-potted, dark complexion (not very) deep plain black suit; only saw him one time & this was Wednesday previous to the murder, he was having an interview with Booth and told him to meet him on Friday eve & he replied he would and left and went up Penn. Avenue towards the Treasury building. I was under the impression he came on with Booth.

Arnold, O'Laughlin, Surratt, Harold, Booth, and myself met once at a saloon or restaurant on the Aven. bet 13 & 14 St.

The Saml. Thomas registered on the morning of the 15th April at Penn Hotel, I met on my way to hotel, he was an entire Stranger to me. I left the Hotel alone on the morning of 15th of April. A Lieut. in room No. 51 will prove this. Surratt bought a boat from ***** Smoot & James Brawner living about Port Tobacco, for which they paid $300.00 and was to give one hundred Dolls. extra for taking care of it till wanted. Booth told me that Mrs. Surratt went to Surrattsville to get out the guns (Two Carbines) which had been taken to that place by Herold. This was Friday. The carriage was hired at Howard's.

I same a man named Weightman who boarded at Surratt's at Post Office. he told me he had to go down the Country with Mrs. Surratt. This was on Friday, Also.

I am certain Dr. Mudd knew all about it, as Booth sent (as he told me) liquors & provisions for the trip with the President to Richmond, about two weeks before the murder to Dr. Mudd's.

Booth never said until the last night (Friday) that he intended to kill the President.

Herold came to the Kirkwood House, same evening for me to go to see Booth. I went with Herold & saw Booth. He then said he was going to kill the President and Wood , the Secy. of State. I did not believe him. This occurred in the evening about 7 1/2 o'clock. It was dark. I took a room at Kirkwood's. Both Herold & I went to the room left Herold's coat, knife, & pistol in room and never again returned to it. Booth said during the day that the thing had failed and proposed to go to Richmond & open the theatre. I am not certain but I think I stayed one night at Kirkwood's (Thursday) we were to try and get papers to Richmond from Mr. Johnson.

Booth spoke of getting the papers. He would get them out of the Theatre. Wood & Booth were apparently confidential with each other. Plenty of parties in Charles County knew of the kidnapping affair.

One of the men named Charles Yates, knew all about it, he went to Richmond during the winter he was to row the Presdt & party over.

Thos. Holborn was to meet us on the road and help in the kidnapping. Bailey & Barnes knew nothing of the affair unless Booth told Bailey & he told Barnes. Booth had met Bailey on "C" St. with me. I did not meet Booth or any other of the party in Baltimore on or about the 31 of March.

Boyle also killed Capt. Watkins near Annapolis last month, was one of the party, in the conspiracy.

I repeat I never knew anything about the murder.

I was intended to give assistance to the kidnapping. They come to Port Tobacco (Surratt & Booth) several times and brought me to Washington. The pistol given me I sold or received a loan on it Saturday morng after the murder from John Caldwick at Matthews & Wells, Store, High St. Georgetown. The knife I threw away just above Mrs. Canby's boarding house the night of the murder about 11 o'clock when I took my horse to stable. I had the horse out to help to take the President. I did not believe he was going to be killed, although Booth had said so. After I heard of the murder I run about the city like a crazy man.

I have not seen Arnold for some time, but saw O'Laughlin on Thursday evening, on the Avenue at Saloon near U.S. Hotel. He told me he was going to see Booth.

Wood did not go on the street in day time for fear of arrest. When he first came to Washington he boarded at Surratt's. This was in Feby. He (Wood) went with Booth last of February to N. York.

Booth we understood paid the way. I know nothing about Canada. Wood told me he had horses in Virginia. Saml. Arnold and Mike O'Laughlin ought to know where the horses and pistols were bought.

Sam and Mike have a buggy and horse kept at stable in rear of Theatre. Booth had several horses at same place. I think the horses property was in Surratt's name. I sold one of the horses & paid part of the money to Booth and part to Herold, who said he would see Booth about it. The saddle and bridle belonging to Booth is at Penn House, where I left it. I overheard Booth when in conversation with Wood say, That he visited a chambermaid at Seward's House & that she was pretty. He said he had a great mind to give her his diamond pin. Herold talked about powders & medicines on Friday night at Mrs. Condby's. Wood, Herold, Booth, and myself were present. This was a meeting place because Wood could not go out for fear of arrest.

Kate Thompson or Kate Brown, as she was known by both names, put up at National & was well known at Penn House. She knew all about the affair. Surratt went to Richd with her last March and Gust. Howell made a trip with her to same place. This woman is about twenty yrs of age, good looking and well dressed. Black hair and eyes, round face from South Carolina & a widow.

I did not see Surratt for seven or eight days before the murder nor have I seen him since.

Miss Thompson or Brown had two large light trunks, one much larger than the other. Young Weightman at Surratts' ought to know about this woman. This remark made by me in Baltimore on the 31 of March alluded to blockade running & privateering altogether & Booth said he had money to buy a steamer & wanted me to go in it.

I was to be one of them. In this way I was going to make a pile of money.

Booth said he had met a party in N. York who would get the Prest. certain. They were going to mine the end of the pres. House, near the War Dept. They knew an entrance to accomplish it through. Spoke about getting friends of the Presdt. to get up an entertainment & they would mix it in, have a serenade & thus get at the Presdt. & party.

These were understood to be projects.

Booth said if he did not get him quick the N. York crowd would. Booth knew the New York party apparently by a sign. He saw Booth give some kind of sign to two parties on the Avenue who he said were from New York. My Uncle Mr. Richter and family in Monty. Co. Md. knew nothing about the affair either before or after the occurrence & never suspected me of any thing wrong as I was in the habit of visiting and working in the neighborhood & staying with him. My father formerly owned part of the property now owned by Richter. Finis.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gene, do you have Weichmann's book? If so, there's another one on pp. 385-387.

[Steve]

If, as Atzerodt claims, Booth didn't tell him that it was now an assassination plot and no longer a kidnapping until right before, then why would Booth trust Atzezodt enough to tell him of another plot he was aware of to mine the White House? One that could succeed if they failed?

[JMadonna]

(10-25-2017 10:32 AM)Steve Wrote:  If, as Atzerodt claims, Booth didn't tell him that it was now an assassination plot and no longer a kidnapping until right before, then why would Booth trust Atzezodt enough to tell him of another plot he was aware of to mine the White House? One that could succeed if they failed?

Booth was losing his team at the time of disclosure. Telling Atzerodt of another plot let him know that someone was still willing to pay a 'pile of money' for success.

[Gene C]

(10-25-2017 07:50 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Gene, do you have Weichmann's book? If so, there's another one on pp. 385-387.

Thanks Roger, and yes I'll check Weichmann's book tonight.

[SSlater]

Apparently, Atzerodt heard that there was a plan to "Mine the White House". He had no knowledge of "planting mines" that would detonate when they were stepped on. so he guessed. Thomas Harney was brought in to do the job. Harney had spent the previous 6 months, burying mines in the road in front of General Sherman's "March to the sea." He was very effective. When Sherman realized how the system worked, he marched Confederate prisoners in front of his Army and the Rebs realized that only Rebs were dieing, they quit. (this freed up Harney to more to Washington.)
This line of thinking fits better with the rest of the WH plan, where the Rebs were to organize a big "sing along" And mix-in with the guests. They knew where the mines were buried, and could avoid them, while the Northerners would tramp all over them.

At that time the WH grounds were open to the public, so there was no problem getting access to the lawn, to set the mines. I doubt that the Rebs could have moved enough powder into WH, to destroy it, without getting caught. Land mines were not the best source of a huge blast, that would have destroyed the building. I can't resolve the "Mix-in" portion of the plan. They certainly would not blow up their own men. I hope someone can add to this study.

---

(10-25-2017 11:11 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Apparently, Atzerodt heard that there was a plan to "Mine the White House". He had no knowledge of "planting mines" that would detonate when they were stepped on. so he guessed. Thomas Harney was brought in to do the job. Harney had spent the previous 6 months, burying mines in the road in front of General Sherman's "March to the sea." He was very effective. When Sherman realized how the system worked, he marched Confederate prisoners in front of his Army and the Rebs realized that only Rebs were dieing, they quit. (this freed up Harney to more to Washington.)
This line of thinking fits better with the rest of the WH plan, where the Rebs were to organize a big "sing along" And mix-in with the guests. They knew where the mines were buried, and could avoid them, while the Northerners would tramp all over them.

At that time the WH grounds were open to the public, so there was no problem getting access to the lawn, to set the mines. I doubt that the Rebs could have moved enough powder into WH, to destroy it, without getting caught. Land mines were not the best source of a huge blast, that would have destroyed the building. I can't resolve the "Mix-in" portion of the plan. They certainly would not blow up their own men. I hope someone can add to this study.

...MOVE to Washington...

[Steve]

The usual description of the plan had always seemed unfeasible to me. And looking over Atzerodt's description it doesn't actually say inside or outside but at the end of White House by the War Department.

Although one has to ask, how would they have hoped to have been able to place mines on the lawn, even at night, without anybody noticing?

[L Verge]

(10-26-2017 11:55 AM)Steve Wrote:  The usual description of the plan had always seemed unfeasible to me. And looking over Atzerodt's description it doesn't actually say inside or outside but at the end of White House by the War Department.

Although one has to ask, how would they have hoped to have been able to place mines on the lawn, even at night, without anybody noticing?

As I have posted before, Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy asked me to consult with White House historian William Seales back in the 1980s when he had published his history of the mansion. He was then consulting with the gov't. agency that owns Surratt House.

Their question was regarding a "secret" entry point into the WH that could accommodate men transporting munitions. Seales replied that the sewer tunnels at that time were large enough for men to stand upright in them, and that he thought there was a decent possibility that the building could be damaged that way. I don't believe that SSlater (i.e. John Stanton) agrees with that possibility, however.

If my feeble brain remembers correctly, there was a mansion nearby (the Greens' ?) that had similar tunnels that were considered in a previous plan to abduct the President and get him out of town. If such pipes/tunnels were big enough to accommodate men and barrels, it makes sense to me that they might be access points in other large buildings in the city -- and certainly more inconspicuous than men digging holes on the WH lawn.

[SSlater]

(10-26-2017 01:12 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(10-26-2017 11:55 AM)Steve Wrote:  The usual description of the plan had always seemed unfeasible to me. And looking over Atzerodt's description it doesn't actually say inside or outside but at the end of White House by the War Department.

Although one has to ask, how would they have hoped to have been able to place mines on the lawn, even at night, without anybody noticing?

As I have posted before, Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy asked me to consult with White House historian William Seales back in the 1980s when he had published his history of the mansion. He was then consulting with the gov't. agency that owns Surratt House.

Their question was regarding a "secret" entry point into the WH that could accommodate men transporting munitions. Seales replied that the sewer tunnels at that time were large enough for men to stand upright in them, and that he thought there was a decent possibility that the building could be damaged that way. I don't believe that SSlater (i.e. John Stanton) agrees with that possibility, however.

If my feeble brain remembers correctly, there was a mansion nearby (the Greens' ?) that had similar tunnels that were considered in a previous plan to abduct the President and get him out of town. If such pipes/tunnels were big enough to accommodate men and barrels, it makes sense to me that they might be access points in other large buildings in the city -- and certainly more inconspicuous than men digging holes on the WH lawn.

Laurie. At that time - the lawn was crowded with people. Some slept there. I would guess, that dressing like gardeners, would be enough disguise -to allow a crew to dig around the existing plants, without drawing attention. We mulled this topic long ago, is it possible to look back at those posts?
I wonder if the "diggers" had the brains to consider all this.
They didn't have powerful enough powder to destroy a building. Dynamite didn't come along until after the war. Black powder burned too slowly in the open.

[L Verge]

(10-26-2017 04:03 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(10-26-2017 01:12 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(10-26-2017 11:55 AM)Steve Wrote:  The usual description of the plan had always seemed unfeasible to me. And looking over Atzerodt's description it doesn't actually say inside or outside but at the end of White House by the War Department.

Although one has to ask, how would they have hoped to have been able to place mines on the lawn, even at night, without anybody noticing?

As I have posted before, Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy asked me to consult with White House historian William Seales back in the 1980s when he had published his history of the mansion. He was then consulting with the gov't. agency that owns Surratt House.

Their question was regarding a "secret" entry point into the WH that could accommodate men transporting munitions. Seales replied that the sewer tunnels at that time were large enough for men to stand upright in them, and that he thought there was a decent possibility that the building could be damaged that way. I don't believe that SSlater (i.e. John Stanton) agrees with that possibility, however.

If my feeble brain remembers correctly, there was a mansion nearby (the Greens' ?) that had similar tunnels that were considered in a previous plan to abduct the President and get him out of town. If such pipes/tunnels were big enough to accommodate men and barrels, it makes sense to me that they might be access points in other large buildings in the city -- and certainly more inconspicuous than men digging holes on the WH lawn.

Laurie. At that time - the lawn was crowded with people. Some slept there. I would guess, that dressing like gardeners, would be enough disguise -to allow a crew to dig around the existing plants, without drawing attention. We mulled this topic long ago, is it possible to look back at those posts?
I wonder if the "diggers" had the brains to consider all this.
They didn't have powerful enough powder to destroy a building. Dynamite didn't come along until after the war. Black powder burned too slowly in the open.

Wouldn't Tidwell, Hall, and Gaddy have known the explosive power that was possible at that time? Why did they even consider the possibility then? Is there something that we aren't considering? Did the firepower have to take down the whole building, or just a section where Lincoln might usually be?

[Steve]

I've also wondered whether the type of explosives they would've used would've had enough power to cause that kind of damage, at least in the amounts that realistically could've been moved there covertly. Although explosives can be more powerful placed strategically in a building than on the ground. However, I'm not an expert on the subject. Maybe a TV show like either NOVA or Mythbusters could test whether those types of explosives would've been able to inflict that much damage.

[JMadonna]

(10-26-2017 06:28 PM)Steve Wrote:  I've also wondered whether the type of explosives they would've used would've had enough power to cause that kind of damage, at least in the amounts that realistically could've been moved there covertly. Although explosives can be more powerful placed strategically in a building than on the ground. However, I'm not an expert on the subject. Maybe a TV show like either NOVA or Mythbusters could test whether those types of explosives would've been able to inflict that much damage.

I have seen that show on TV. They used a small barrel of powder and demonstrated that placing it in a confined area such as under the dining hall in the basement would have had enough power to bring down the floor above it.

According to the show the plan was to bring the powder through the always unguarded adjacent conservatory (built by Buchanan) and into the basement door under the portico. The serenade was supposed to bring the cabinet into the dining hall to observe and be blown up.

[RJNorton]

There is a short video about the plot here:

http://www.history.com/topics/american-c...-bomb-plot

I could not get the video to play using Internet Explorer 11 with Windows 10; however, no problems with either Firefox or Chrome.