“Lincoln in the Bardo,” won the Man Booker Prize

[David Lockmiller]

George Saunders’s surreal, experimental first novel, “Lincoln in the Bardo,” won the Man Booker Prize on Tuesday, October 17, 2017.

The novel unfolds in a cemetery in 1862, where a grieving Abraham Lincoln visits the crypt that holds the body of his 11-year-old son, Willie, who died of typhoid fever. At the graveyard, Willie’s spirit is joined by a garrulous, motley community of ghosts who exist in the liminal state between life and death. At times, the narrative feels more like a play or an oral history than a novel, with dialogue among the ghosts, interspersed with scraps of historical research and snippets of contemporary news accounts that Mr. Saunders gathered, or in some cases invented.

This is quite a contrast with Elizabeth Keckley's vivid description of the moments when President Lincoln, the father, viewed his son's body and expressed his loss in words and actions.

I assisted in washing and dressing him, and then laid him on the bed when Mr. Lincoln came in. I never saw a man so bowed down with grief. He came to the bed, and lifting the cover from the face of his child, gazed at it long and earnestly, murmuring:

"My poor boy, he was too good for this earth. God has called him home. I know that he is better off in Heaven, but then we loved him so. It was hard--hard--to have him die!"

Great sobs choked his utterance. He bowed his head in his hands, and his tall frame was convulsed with emotion. I stood at the foot of the bed, my eyes full of tears, looking at the man in silent, awe-stricken wonder. His grief unnerved him, and made him a weak, passive child. I did not dream that his rugged nature could be so moved.

I do not think that I will bother reading any part of "Lincoln in the Bardo."

[Gene C]

this from today's NY Times about the author

"Mr. Saunders, a Tibetan Buddhist, drew on the Buddhist notion of the bardo — the phase of existence between death and rebirth — bringing a supernatural layer to the historical setting. With the chorus of ghosts in the cemetery, Mr. Saunders tied Lincoln’s suffering to a universal human plight of mortality and loss, giving it an epic, mythical quality.

“For me, the book was about that terrible conundrum: We seem to be born to love, but everything we love comes to an end,” Mr. Saunders said in an email interview with The New York Times Book Review. “What do we do with that?”

Well I guess we write a book.


Which of coarse reminds me of a song "As Time Goes By" (from the movie Casablanca). This version sung coincidently by George Sanders (not the writer, but the movie star from the 1940's, 50's and 60's)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnXaBHNyr88

[kerry]

I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

[kerry]

I found this on newspapers.com. On 27 March 1862, the Daily Intelligencer reported “Mrs. Edwards, the sister of Mrs. Lincoln, had a narrow escape last week. She visited the Oak Hill Cemetery, in company with some friends, for the purpose of gazing on the lifeless remains of "little 'Willie." While in conversation with Dr. Brown, a few feet from the vault, two Minie musket balls passed within a few inches of her head. They were apparently fired from an encampment over a mile distant.” As embalming was new, it was apparently a thing.

I definitely recommend this book, but it is written in a very odd way that may be hard for some people to connect with. I've yet to meet another person who has read it, despite it getting all this attention and prizes.

[RJNorton]

Regarding the location of the Carroll Tomb within the cemetery, the Kunhardts write in Twenty Days:

"Nothing could have been more peaceful or more beautiful than the situation of this tomb and it was completely undiscoverable to the casual cemetery visitor, being the very last tomb on the left side at the extreme far reaches of the grounds, at the top of an almost perpendicular hillside that descended to Rock Creek below. The rapid water made a pleasant rushing sound and the forest trees stood up bare and strong against the sky."

Based on this near-isolated location of the Carroll Tomb within Oak Hill Cemetery, I wonder if whoever were firing the rifle thought they were firing into vacant land? (Just a guess)

[Eva Elisabeth]

Lincoln here?
http://www.bardomuseum.tn/index.php?lang...&Itemid=59

[RJNorton]

(12-11-2017 09:47 PM)kerry Wrote:  I found this on newspapers.com. On 27 March 1862, the Daily Intelligencer reported “Mrs. Edwards, the sister of Mrs. Lincoln, had a narrow escape last week. She visited the Oak Hill Cemetery, in company with some friends, for the purpose of gazing on the lifeless remains of "little 'Willie." While in conversation with Dr. Brown, a few feet from the vault, two Minie musket balls passed within a few inches of her head. They were apparently fired from an encampment over a mile distant.” As embalming was new, it was apparently a thing.

I definitely recommend this book, but it is written in a very odd way that may be hard for some people to connect with. I've yet to meet another person who has read it, despite it getting all this attention and prizes.

(12-12-2017 05:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Lincoln here?
http://www.bardomuseum.tn/index.php?lang...&Itemid=59

Kerry, Eva, everyone - has anybody come across solid proof that Lincoln himself visited the tomb twice (as claimed in Twenty Days) to look upon Willie? Many Lincoln books do not carry this story at all, and as far as I can tell, the ones that do (such as Twenty Days) have no footnotes. What is the authentic source for the story?

[kerry]

(12-12-2017 05:12 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(12-11-2017 09:47 PM)kerry Wrote:  I found this on newspapers.com. On 27 March 1862, the Daily Intelligencer reported “Mrs. Edwards, the sister of Mrs. Lincoln, had a narrow escape last week. She visited the Oak Hill Cemetery, in company with some friends, for the purpose of gazing on the lifeless remains of "little 'Willie." While in conversation with Dr. Brown, a few feet from the vault, two Minie musket balls passed within a few inches of her head. They were apparently fired from an encampment over a mile distant.” As embalming was new, it was apparently a thing.

I definitely recommend this book, but it is written in a very odd way that may be hard for some people to connect with. I've yet to meet another person who has read it, despite it getting all this attention and prizes.

(12-12-2017 05:05 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Lincoln here?
http://www.bardomuseum.tn/index.php?lang...&Itemid=59

Kerry, Eva, everyone - has anybody come across solid proof that Lincoln himself visited the tomb twice (as claimed in Twenty Days) to look upon Willie? Many Lincoln books do not carry this story at all, and as far as I can tell, the ones that do (such as Twenty Days) have no footnotes. What is the authentic source for the story?

There's no authentic source that I've found for Lincoln himself. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't considered as weird as it sounds now, as the Lincolns encouraged visitors to go look. It wasn't considered as showing a lack of faith, as Miner did it. Either way, the book is by no means intended to be a historical record; it is very metaphorical, and about larger issues. Half the Lincoln-related quotes are real, half are fabricated, but it is well done. It's about humanity more than Lincoln. He's not in a lot of the book. Lincoln is not aware of any of the spirits, so he's not really in the Bardo (come to think of it, the title is a bit weird), but they are aware of him. Each character basically represents a person held back by something, and explains why, and that chorus of lost souls builds in an interesting way.

[Susan Higginbotham]

(11-04-2017 11:32 AM)kerry Wrote:  I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

Where is the interview with Miner's daughter? Just curious.

[kerry]

(12-12-2017 12:27 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  [quote='kerry' pid='67883' dateline='1509813168']
I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

I attached it - it's from genealogybank.com

[RJNorton]

"When Mrs. Lincoln returned to Springfield for the funeral of her husband, she sent for Mr. and Mrs. Miner, and told them of the last day of Lincoln's life."

Something is way off here....

[kerry]

(12-12-2017 01:43 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  "When Mrs. Lincoln returned to Springfield for the funeral of her husband, she sent for Mr. and Mrs. Miner, and told them of the last day of Lincoln's life."

Something is way off here....

Yeah, some of it is definitely confused, as she was repeating what she heard years later. I think she meant to say Chicago. A ton of accounts mention when Mary came back to Springfield after Lincoln's death - people just assumed that was what happened. She's supposedly quoting from a letter, though, about the visit to the cemetery, so that part seems to be accurate. The more research I do, the more it becomes clear that human memory is frighteningly inaccurate. A common issue is mixing up Tad, Robert, and Willie, even when the person claims to have met one of them (and there is evidence to support that they have). Clearly they just looked it up or were going on what they read most recently. Then there are people who met Tad and insist his name was "Tats", Teddy (both of which are excusable), or "Dot" (not excusable). Or in one of Alexander Williamson's accounts, he clearly indicates that he interviewed with Mary in September 1861, and then clearly indicates that she wrote Lincoln of her decision regarding a tutor while at Long Branch, which was in August. I try really hard to look for inconsistencies and take out questionable accounts, but it's clear that even people who did have regular contact with the Lincolns cannot keep the story straight.

[Susan Higginbotham]

(12-12-2017 01:35 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:27 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  [quote='kerry' pid='67883' dateline='1509813168']
I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

I attached it - it's from genealogybank.com

Thanks!

[kerry]

(12-12-2017 02:37 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 01:35 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:27 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  [quote='kerry' pid='67883' dateline='1509813168']
I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

I attached it - it's from genealogybank.com

Thanks!

You're welcome - I'd forgot I'd posted this until you quoted it -- the most direct reference is the National Baptist One. On April 25, 1865, the Indianapolis Sentinel also reported Lincoln had the body disinterred twice to look up it. Unfortunately I can't figure out where I got the National Baptist reference - the way I wrote it, I probably looked at the actual issue, but now I can't find it.

[Susan Higginbotham]

(12-12-2017 03:00 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 02:37 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 01:35 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(12-12-2017 12:27 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  [quote='kerry' pid='67883' dateline='1509813168']
I thought the book was excellent. It's weird and not for everybody, but the overall message and its presentation were really impressive, in my opinion.

I read a newspaper interview with Rev. N. W. Miner's daughter, and it included a letter in which he visited the Lincolns in 1862 and was told to go look at Willie's body, and did so. So it seems possible Lincoln himself could have done so.

I also found this - On July 17, 1865, the National Baptist published correspondence from Springfield noting that Willie was embalmed “so handsomely that the President had it twice disinterred to look upon it.”

I attached it - it's from genealogybank.com

Thanks!

You're welcome - I'd forgot I'd posted this until you quoted it -- the most direct reference is the National Baptist One. On April 25, 1865, the Indianapolis Sentinel also reported Lincoln had the body disinterred twice to look up it. Unfortunately I can't figure out where I got the National Baptist reference - the way I wrote it, I probably looked at the actual issue, but now I can't find it.

It seems that the original quote was in the New York World, and the National Baptist copied it.

https://books.google.com/books?id=F6HB7q...t.&f=false