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Susan Higginbotham · 05-17-2017, 08:26 AM

(05-16-2017 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote: Someone in Canada was sufficiently skilled to be able to take decent pictures of the Raiders, at the time of their trial. There are two pictures of the Raiders - one is said to be on the Court House steps.
That same person may have provided a good picture of the women who attended to the prisoners. This shows that a decent picture could have been made of her. ("Goodole watzer name").
I should not care whether or not Sarah was recruited "to go for Documents - from Richmond or from Canada". But strange new claims, totally unsupported, annoy me. Can anyone show a source for the claim?
"

Not a strange new claim, nor an unsupported one. Sarah was certainly in the South as of January 16, 1865, when she was attempting to secure permission to pass the Confederate lines to go to New York. James Hall has the pertinent correspondence in his article on Sarah reprinted in "In Pursuit Of . . . "

At the conspiracy trial, Gus Howell testified that he took Sarah across the Potomac on about February 1, 1865, and that she went on to New York. According to Hall, Howell actually accompanied Sarah to New York, where they stayed at the European Hotel, from which Sarah went on to Montreal. She registered at the St. Lawrence Hotel there on February 15.

This is consistent with Cameron's February 15, 1865, trial testimony that on February 4, he received duplicate papers to carry to Montreal from Richmond because another messenger (presumably Sarah) had already left for Montreal with the documents: "I received the papers from Secretary Benjamin, Secretary of State, in the State Department, on the 4th of February: he affixed his signature to them in my presence; I did not part with them till I handed them to Mr. Abbott yesterday; the great seal of the Confederate States was affixed to them; Mr. Benjamin called my attention to the excellence of the impression; I volunteered to go for the prisoners; I carried a missive from Col. Thompson, who arranged with me about going, and supplied the funds; I called on Mr. Benjamin an hour after my arrival in Richmond, and was informed the requisite papers had been sent by another messenger the day before; he said everything had been sent necessary to establish their belligerent character and that they acted under orders; the following day I called on the President by appointment, and asked, in order to assure the safe delivery of the papers, if I might be entrusted with duplicates as a second messenger . . . "

I see nothing placing Sarah in Montreal prior to February 15, 1865.

JMadonna · 05-17-2017, 11:52 AM

(05-15-2017 02:57 PM)L Verge Wrote: I suspect that most of us have our theories about certain aspects of the assassination, etc. But we hit a brick wall and can't prove them. We have to settle with saying "we think, but can't prove."

My brick wall happens to be my theory that David Herold was sent by Booth into Southern Maryland on April 12-13, 1865, to alert the players down there that the die was cast, and the deed would be done soon. I theorize that is how David came to spend the night of April 13 with my great-grandparents. My sticking point is that I believe Dr. Mudd was one of those he contacted. Some believe me, some don't; and I have no way of proving it. You just learn to live with the fact that some things will never be proven, especially when one is dealing with underground operations.

Laurie, your theory is not only plausible but probable. This leads to a question. Since no theory can be proved as 100% fact (unless proven through math, where do you draw the line?

L Verge · 05-17-2017, 12:31 PM

"Here is what Headley says.... "Mrs _______". a widow, only 24 years old, employed by the Confederate Government for Secret Service in the Northern States had come to Montreal and called on the prisoners at the jail. (There was no USO troop to sing and dance, so she tried to get them to smile). They needed help so she volunteered to make the trip. I can't see any room here for doubt.
I did study this event, at some length and came to the conclusion that Headley, knew her name!. This quote was written just before 1905. Does a widow carry the "Mrs" title after the death of her spouse? Does she revert to her Maiden name? I think people Called her a widow - because that was her disguise. I think Headley only emphasized her disguise as a widow. Otherwise he might have used her full name. (He could have said "An unknown lady...."
New question. Who was it that invited her to the proposed Honorarium in Kentucky in 1867? (He knew her name and knew where she lived. ) (P.S. She was living in New York City with Rowan, based on information in her divorce papers. ) She may have been found through the Divorce Proceedings. Her name and Rowan's was published over a string of months, in an effort to find him and get him to attend the hearings (He didn't show.)"

Am I correct in assuming that Headley never used "Mrs.'s" full name? If he knew it in 1905-06 and knew enough to invite her to the reunion, why didn't he use it in his book? If she showed up at the reunion, it appears obvious to me that she was no longer being elusive and secretive. I also do not understand why Slater would have been honored by the state of Kentucky since she was not from the state. What did she do to earn an honor there?

Up until modern times, widows retained their husband's names until they remarried. But, Sarah wasn't a widow until years later. I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense to me. I find it more logical that the photo is of another true Confederate widow from Kentucky who evidently helped fellow Kentuckians in the Northwest Conspiracy and was honored for it.

Also, the source I used stated that Sarah was first recruited in Richmond by the Secretary of War James Seddon specifically to carry the commission papers to St. Albans. That makes sense since the matter concerned soldiers under Seddon's jurisdiction. It also made sense since Sarah spoke fluent French. Also, if Sarah had carried the Canadian demand for proof of the soldiers' commissions from Canada to Richmond, Olivia Floyd would not have been needed in the process - but she was.

Jerry - I wish I knew where one draws the line in separating fact and theory. Mr. Hall would refer to Occum's Razor, but also admit that it didn't totally solve an issue. I think what we must do is consistently state "theory," "speculation," "assumption," etc. when dealing with such situations. Many historians/authors have muddied the waters by making flat statements without proof to back them up.

RJNorton · 05-17-2017, 01:27 PM

(05-17-2017 12:31 PM)L Verge Wrote: Am I correct in assuming that Headley never used "Mrs.'s" full name? If he knew it in 1905-06 and knew enough to invite her to the reunion, why didn't he use it in his book? If she showed up at the reunion, it appears obvious to me that she was no longer being elusive and secretive. I also do not understand why Slater would have been honored by the state of Kentucky since she was not from the state. What did she do to earn an honor there?

If she were already in Richmond when the request for the documents was made, where does Headley get his information about her walking from Maryland to Richmond to get the documents? Did he make this up? Did Sarah tell him this at the reunion? In other words, where did Headley get his information about all the walking he says she did? As you all can tell, I am still confused...

SSlater · 05-17-2017, 02:02 PM

(05-17-2017 04:17 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(05-16-2017 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote: New question. Who was it that invited her to the proposed Honorarium in Kentucky in 1867?

Headley writes, "This devotee of the South was a Kentucky lady. About 1867 she visited Frankfort when the legislature was in session. During a recess of fifteen minutes taken in her honor she was the recipient of an ovation, being presented by Hon. Thomas T. Coger, of Jessamine County, the home of Lieut. Bennett H. Young."

Are there any other sources to support Headley that this really happened?

Someone in Kentucky verified - for me - that there was a session where the Lady was honored for her services to the Raiders, at the time stated. I wrote again for her name. Their reply was that the Legislature met during a short recess called for this purpose and that the their activity is classified and not available for publication.
Thus a lady was honored - but WHO?
I am certain that this was necessary to protect the Lady, from being arrested, as a participant in the assassination. (Which narrows the field of possible Ladies who qualify.)
There is another story of a claimant for this honor. OLIVIA FLOYD.
She lived in Southern Maryland and did help the South.
Long after the war, some of her good friends tried to get her a pension in her old age and used the Slater story as a basis. They claim that Olivia hid the Requests - for the papers - in the andirons of her fireplace, while US officials searched for them.
This could not have happened since all requests were hand carried to Richmond and not sent by Hand to hand delivery. Out of sympathy for the old Lady, I sure someone can create a good story to contradict this - be my guest! PS I don't know if she got the Pension.

Susan Higginbotham · 05-17-2017, 02:06 PM

I think we should remember that Headley was writing forty years after the events in question. when everyone's memories had had a chance to get hazy. Maybe the surviving raiders he spoke with simply were confused as to Sarah's background and movements. Or, as I suspect and as I said earlier, maybe the former prisoners were simply conflating their memories of two ladies: Sarah, and an unnamed Kentucky widow who visited the men in prison.

I think James Hall put it best, when he writes of Headley's account of the young widow, "The story he got has the earmarks of mixed events dredged up from failing memories."

I don't think it's impossible that the photograph is of Sarah, but I think it could just as easily be of someone else.

RJNorton · 05-17-2017, 02:17 PM

(05-17-2017 02:02 PM)SSlater Wrote: Someone in Kentucky verified - for me - that there was a session where the Lady was honored for her services to the Raiders, at the time stated. I wrote again for her name. Their reply was that the Legislature met during a short recess called for this purpose and that the their activity is classified and not available for publication.
Thus a lady was honored - but WHO?

Thank you, John!

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 05-17-2017 03:44 PM by L Verge.)

(05-17-2017 02:02 PM)SSlater Wrote:
(05-17-2017 04:17 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(05-16-2017 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote: New question. Who was it that invited her to the proposed Honorarium in Kentucky in 1867?

Headley writes, "This devotee of the South was a Kentucky lady. About 1867 she visited Frankfort when the legislature was in session. During a recess of fifteen minutes taken in her honor she was the recipient of an ovation, being presented by Hon. Thomas T. Coger, of Jessamine County, the home of Lieut. Bennett H. Young."

Are there any other sources to support Headley that this really happened?
Someone in Kentucky verified - for me - that there was a session where the Lady was honored for her services to the Raiders, at the time stated. I wrote again for her name. Their reply was that the Legislature met during a short recess called for this purpose and that the their activity is classified and not available for publication.
Thus a lady was honored - but WHO?
I am certain that this was necessary to protect the Lady, from being arrested, as a participant in the assassination. (Which narrows the field of possible Ladies who qualify.)
There is another story of a claimant for this honor. OLIVIA FLOYD.
She lived in Southern Maryland and did help the South.
Long after the war, some of her good friends tried to get her a pension in her old age and used the Slater story as a basis. They claim that Olivia hid the Requests - for the papers - in the andirons of her fireplace, while US officials searched for them.
This could not have happened since all requests were hand carried to Richmond and not sent by Hand to hand delivery. Out of sympathy for the old Lady, I sure someone can create a good story to contradict this - be my guest! PS I don't know if she got the Pension.

Olivia's story also includes that she attended the reunion in Kentucky. And, 150+ years after that Kentucky honor it is still classified? What a crock! Where's the Freedom of Information Act when you need it?

More on Olivia and those papers:
In furtherance of this proof, a message was started in the South requesting a copy of their commissions. This message passed from hand-to-hand, from Southern sympathizer to sympathizer, all the way from Canada to the state of Maryland. Here at Charles County, it finally reached Olivia Floyd, who was the last person in the chain of communications into Confederate territory.

However, the Union troops were suspicious of Miss Floyd, and just when she had received this message, Union soldiers were on their way to Rose Hill to search it. Looking for a place to hide the message, she thought of the pair of brass andirons, remembering that the brass balls at the top were hollow. She immediately placed the message in one of the hollow balls, not long before the Union soldiers arrived. Once there, the union soldiers searched the house, and finding nothing, stopped in the parlor to sit and relax for a short time by the fire, resting their feet on the very andirons that contained the message. Once the soldiers had gone, Olivia then retrieved the message, and hiding it in her hair, left Rose Hill. She soon arrived at the signal station at Popes Creek, Virginia where the message was then sent to Richmond. The authorities there received the message in time to forward the commissions for Young and his men in time to save their lives.

Many years after the war ended, Olivia was invited to attend a Confederate Reunion held in Louisville, Kentucky as a personal guest of Colonel Bennet Young. With the help of a man named Adrian Posey, she was able to attend the reunion. At the gathering, Olivia was treated as an honored guest. Prior to this reunion, but after the war ended, Olivia Floyd sent the boat model and the andirons that she used to hide the many messages to Colonel Young.

Olivia Floyd died at Rose Hill.

Copyright© John T. Marck. All Rights Reserved. This article and their accompanying pictures, photographs, and line art, may not be resold, reprinted, or redistributed for compensation of any kind without prior written permission from the author.

Similar information is given on a website for the Port Tobacco Archaeological Survey, since Olivia's home at Rose Hill is in Port Tobacco.

I made an interesting discovery today. Our James O. Hall Research Center at Surratt House inherited not only Hall's papers, but also those of Gen. Tidwell. A number of years ago, Wild Bill spent several weeks here cataloging the Tidwell Papers.

I went to that catalog today to see what I could find about Cameron and Headley. Nary a page, which seems strange considering Tidwell's expertise in Confederate covert affairs.

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 05-18-2017 02:30 PM by Gene C.)

(05-17-2017 02:47 PM)L Verge Wrote: Olivia's story also includes that she attended the reunion in Kentucky. And, 150+ years after that Kentucky honor it is still classified? What a crock! Where's the Freedom of Information Act when you need it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made an interesting discovery today. Our James O. Hall Research Center at Surratt House inherited not only Hall's papers, but also those of Gen. Tidwell. A number of years ago, Wild Bill spent several weeks here cataloging the Tidwell Papers.

I went to that catalog today to see what I could find about Cameron and Headley. Nary a page, which seems strange considering Tidwell's expertise in Confederate covert affairs.

Sounds like a government cover up to me, and that some government agency has infiltrated the research center.
We need to demand a special prosecutor, or inquisitor, or just a good gossip to look into this and blow up any alleged allegations completely out of proportion. Then we need to repeat the baseless allegations over and over by quoting non existing experts and stir up more publicity on blogs, twitter, facebook, linkedln, and CNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, PBS, ASAP.

Dodgy

L Verge · 05-18-2017, 02:31 PM

(05-18-2017 02:22 PM)Gene C Wrote:
(05-17-2017 02:47 PM)L Verge Wrote: Olivia's story also includes that she attended the reunion in Kentucky. And, 150+ years after that Kentucky honor it is still classified? What a crock! Where's the Freedom of Information Act when you need it?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made an interesting discovery today. Our James O. Hall Research Center at Surratt House inherited not only Hall's papers, but also those of Gen. Tidwell. A number of years ago, Wild Bill spent several weeks here cataloging the Tidwell Papers.

I went to that catalog today to see what I could find about Cameron and Headley. Nary a page, which seems strange considering Tidwell's expertise in Confederate covert affairs.

Sounds like a government cover up to me, and that some government agency has infiltrated the research center.
We need to demand a special prosecutor, or inquisitor, or just a good gossip to look into this and blow up any alleged allegations completely out of proportion. Then we need to repeat the baseless allegations over and over by quoting non existing experts and stir up more publicity on blogs, twitter, facebook, linkedln, and CNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, PBS, ASAP.

My thoughts exactly...

SSlater · 05-18-2017, 08:15 PM

Here is a new Problem for us to cope with.

Headley may be a LIAR. I will always question anything he says and look for GOOD information elsewhere, ( even if I am wrong.)

We have lots of text describing the activities of "the Kentucky woman who attended to the Raiders during their imprisonment" Sometimes she is identified as Sarah, and sometimes as Mrs. Higbee.

Mrs Mary Belle Shanks Miller Higbee was the wife of C, H, Higbee, one of the Raiders who was wounded badly in the St. Albans raid.
It is said that she came up from Kentucky to attend to her husband.
She attended to him daily and most likely helped others at he same time. She was actually a "24 year old Kentucky widow" and thus
earned a spot for her picture in Headley's book.

BUT - Bennett Young, the Commander of the Raiders reports that Higbee was "Shot through and through and could not stay in the saddle" so, "he was left in St. Albans, in the care of an unidentified woman --- who was well paid, (most likely with money stolen from the St. Albans Banks.) Higbee was later smuggled into Canada and left with Dr. Montross Pullen at the St. John Baptiste Society.

He recovered and returned to Kentucky - eventually moved to Texas and became very wealthy as President of a Bank.

From this report - he never was in the jail with the rest. Mrs Higbee never went to Canada.

As if that is not enough to show that Headley was "off key", I also read that he found the picture of "The Kentucky Widow" in Kentucky. and thus the Montreal Police had nothing to do with the Availability of the Picture.

Was this the fault of Headley? or was it an effort to sell more books?
(was it bad info fed to him, or did he garnish a dull story?)
A life-long truth, just went down the drain.

Gene C · 05-20-2017, 07:53 AM

(05-11-2017 01:57 PM)BettyO Wrote: Lt (later General) Bennett Young died in 1919. It was he, who at 20-21 years of age, instigated the Saint Alban's Raid. He was an exceedingly interesting man - captured and tried for the raid who was later promoted to general. A movie entitled "The Raid" was produced in 1954 starring Van Heflin. His book, Confederate Wizards of the Saddle concerns his membership in John Hunt Morgan's unit. I checked, but no mention of Sara Slater. Movie is available for download from Youtube and the book is available on Internet Archive.

Movie- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uECSJkbO9BA

Book - https://archive.org/details/cu31924030921260

I watched the movie, and in addition to Van Heflin, it stars Anne Bancroft, Richard Boone (of Have Gun Will Travel) Lee Marvin and Peter Graves (of Mission Impossible) A fairly good movie, with liberties taken with actual events. The youtube version is a bit fuzzy and the timing of dialogue and the actors lips is a bit off, somewhat like the old Japanese monster movies.

Here are a few interesting ? reviews of the movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047388/reviews

JMadonna · 05-20-2017, 10:52 AM

(05-18-2017 08:15 PM)SSlater Wrote: He recovered and returned to Kentucky - eventually moved to Texas and became very wealthy as President of a Bank.

There were rumors among the Raiders that Higbee started the bank with the money that was never recovered.

SSlater · 05-20-2017, 10:35 PM

(05-17-2017 12:31 PM)L Verge Wrote: "Here is what Headley says.... "Mrs _______". a widow, only 24 years old, employed by the Confederate Government for Secret Service in the Northern States had come to Montreal and called on the prisoners at the jail. (There was no USO troop to sing and dance, so she tried to get them to smile). They needed help so she volunteered to make the trip. I can't see any room here for doubt.
I did study this event, at some length and came to the conclusion that Headley, knew her name!. This quote was written just before 1905. Does a widow carry the "Mrs" title after the death of her spouse? Does she revert to her Maiden name? I think people Called her a widow - because that was her disguise. I think Headley only emphasized her disguise as a widow. Otherwise he might have used her full name. (He could have said "An unknown lady...."
New question. Who was it that invited her to the proposed Honorarium in Kentucky in 1867? (He knew her name and knew where she lived. ) (P.S. She was living in New York City with Rowan, based on information in her divorce papers. ) She may have been found through the Divorce Proceedings. Her name and Rowan's was published over a string of months, in an effort to find him and get him to attend the hearings (He didn't show.)"

Am I correct in assuming that Headley never used "Mrs.'s" full name? If he knew it in 1905-06 and knew enough to invite her to the reunion, why didn't he use it in his book? If she showed up at the reunion, it appears obvious to me that she was no longer being elusive and secretive. I also do not understand why Slater would have been honored by the state of Kentucky since she was not from the state. What did she do to earn an honor there?

Up until modern times, widows retained their husband's names until they remarried. But, Sarah wasn't a widow until years later. I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense to me. I find it more logical that the photo is of another true Confederate widow from Kentucky who evidently helped fellow Kentuckians in the Northwest Conspiracy and was honored for it.

Also, the source I used stated that Sarah was first recruited in Richmond by the Secretary of War James Seddon specifically to carry the commission papers to St. Albans. That makes sense since the matter concerned soldiers under Seddon's jurisdiction. It also made sense since Sarah spoke fluent French. Also, if Sarah had carried the Canadian demand for proof of the soldiers' commissions from Canada to Richmond, Olivia Floyd would not have been needed in the process - but she was.

Jerry - I wish I knew where one draws the line in separating fact and theory. Mr. Hall would refer to Occum's Razor, but also admit that it didn't totally solve an issue. I think what we must do is consistently state "theory," "speculation," "assumption," etc. when dealing with such situations. Many historians/authors have muddied the waters by making flat statements without proof to back them up.

I have thought about the Honorarium. Maybe "she was not invited to an honorarium", suppose she was visiting Louisville and she was spotted by someone who knew her and he called for an instant honorarium, and the legislature said, Yeah!
I would guess that if she was "Invited" and traveled days and days, the party would have lasted more than 15 minutes..
I think we will never know the true story, because much of this is "cover - up, and they did a good job.
What do you think about the lady - named as a possible second lady helping the Raiders - was never in Canada at the time they were in Jail? I have got to think SOME MORE.
She did go to Canada to get her husband AFTER THE WAR.
I wish that Rush and Pewit were around to help. Did they send a copy of their work to the Research Center?

SSlater · 05-22-2017, 11:48 PM

(05-20-2017 10:35 PM)SSlater Wrote:
(05-17-2017 12:31 PM)L Verge Wrote: "Here is what Headley says.... "Mrs _______". a widow, only 24 years old, employed by the Confederate Government for Secret Service in the Northern States had come to Montreal and called on the prisoners at the jail. (There was no USO troop to sing and dance, so she tried to get them to smile). They needed help so she volunteered to make the trip. I can't see any room here for doubt.
I did study this event, at some length and came to the conclusion that Headley, knew her name!. This quote was written just before 1905. Does a widow carry the "Mrs" title after the death of her spouse? Does she revert to her Maiden name? I think people Called her a widow - because that was her disguise. I think Headley only emphasized her disguise as a widow. Otherwise he might have used her full name. (He could have said "An unknown lady...."
New question. Who was it that invited her to the proposed Honorarium in Kentucky in 1867? (He knew her name and knew where she lived. ) (P.S. She was living in New York City with Rowan, based on information in her divorce papers. ) She may have been found through the Divorce Proceedings. Her name and Rowan's was published over a string of months, in an effort to find him and get him to attend the hearings (He didn't show.)"

Am I correct in assuming that Headley never used "Mrs.'s" full name? If he knew it in 1905-06 and knew enough to invite her to the reunion, why didn't he use it in his book? If she showed up at the reunion, it appears obvious to me that she was no longer being elusive and secretive. I also do not understand why Slater would have been honored by the state of Kentucky since she was not from the state. What did she do to earn an honor there?

Up until modern times, widows retained their husband's names until they remarried. But, Sarah wasn't a widow until years later. I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense to me. I find it more logical that the photo is of another true Confederate widow from Kentucky who evidently helped fellow Kentuckians in the Northwest Conspiracy and was honored for it.

Also, the source I used stated that Sarah was first recruited in Richmond by the Secretary of War James Seddon specifically to carry the commission papers to St. Albans. That makes sense since the matter concerned soldiers under Seddon's jurisdiction. It also made sense since Sarah spoke fluent French. Also, if Sarah had carried the Canadian demand for proof of the soldiers' commissions from Canada to Richmond, Olivia Floyd would not have been needed in the process - but she was.

Jerry - I wish I knew where one draws the line in separating fact and theory. Mr. Hall would refer to Occum's Razor, but also admit that it didn't totally solve an issue. I think what we must do is consistently state "theory," "speculation," "assumption," etc. when dealing with such situations. Many historians/authors have muddied the waters by making flat statements without proof to back them up.
I have thought about the Honorarium. Maybe "she was not invited to an honorarium", suppose she was visiting Louisville and she was spotted by someone who knew her and he called for an instant honorarium, and the legislature said, Yeah!
I would guess that if she was "Invited" and traveled days and days, the party would have lasted more than 15 minutes..
I think we will never know the true story, because much of this is "cover - up, and they did a good job.
What do you think about the lady - named as a possible second lady helping the Raiders - was never in Canada at the time they were in Jail? I have got to think SOME MORE.
She did go to Canada to get her husband AFTER THE WAR.
I wish that Rush and Pewit were around to help. Did they send a copy of their work to the Research Center?

An interesting side story about the Raid ---Richard R. Montgomery was a Confederate Spy who delivered Documents to Montreal. He has said that we would stop in Washington on his trip North and allow the Federals read all his mail. He said that he told the Federals about a pending Raid into Vermont , but didn't know where it would be. It would not take a full Army to patrol the area, yet they didn't do anything.