Lincoln speech on the Bible?

[Rob Wick]

My research of late has been focused on William E. Barton and how he related to Ida Tarbell's work. In addition to going through some of his papers in the University of Chicago collection, I've been reading his correspondence with the Bobbs-Merrill Company of Indianapolis, who published the majority of Barton's later books, including his two-volume Life of Abraham Lincoln.

In going through newspaper articles, I came across an article about the discovery of James Smith's The Christian's Defence and how it was said to have influenced Lincoln. What struck me was the closing paragraph of the article, which states "Two years later Lincoln delivered a lecture on the Bible in Smith's church which was said by ministers to be the ablest defense of the Bible ever heard in that pulpit." This is certainly news to me.

I turned to Barton's The Soul of Abraham Lincoln in which he quotes an article written in 1873 that appeared in Scribner's Monthly. The author, James A. Reed, quoted a letter that Smith had written to William Herndon in 1867, after Herndon wrote Smith asking about Lincoln's religious views. Smith wrote a scathing letter to Herndon which also appeared in the Springfield Journal in March 1867. Smith wrote "It will no doubt be gratifying to the friends of Christianity to learn that very shortly after Mr. Lincoln became a member of my congregation, at my request, in the presence of a large assembly at the annual meeting of the Bible Society of Springfield, he delivered an address the object of which was to inculcate the importance of having the Bible placed in possession of every family in the State. In the course of it he drew a striking contrast between the Decalogue and the moral codes of the most eminent lawgivers of antiquity, and closed (as near as I can recollect) in the following language: 'It seems to me that nothing short of infinite wisdom could by any possibility have devised and given to man this excellent and perfect moral code. It is suited to men in all conditions of life, and includes all the duties they owe to their Creator, to themselves, and to their fellow-men.'"

Barton also quoted at length a man named Thomas Lewis, who was a lawyer in Springfield whose office adjoined Lincoln's. In November 1898, Lewis wrote a letter from his home in Kansas which appeared in both Springfield newspapers in which he mentioned the alleged lecture. "Some month's later the session of the church invited Mr. Lincoln to deliver a lecture on the Bible. When it became known that Mr. Lincoln was to lecture in the Presbyterian church it assured a full house. It was said by divines and others to be the ablest defense of the Bible ever uttered in the public. (Barton, The Soul of Abraham Lincoln, 159)

There are a number of issues with this claim. First, Smith's recollection merits only a "C" from the Fehrenbachers, who note "There appears to be no other evidence of Lincoln's having delivered such an address, and all testimony regarding Lincoln's religion should probably be regarded with skepticism." Lewis's recollections comes from a man 46 years after the fact. It should also be noted that in the book Barton puts the article in the Springfield papers on December 10, 1898 while it actually appeared in both papers on December 16, 1898. The confusion may have stemmed from the date of Lewis's letter, which was November 10, 1898.

More important, however, is, as the Fehrenbacher's note, there is no supporting evidence such a lecture ever took place. I searched both the Illinois State Journal and the Illinois State Register for the year 1852 and no mention is made in either paper of a lecture by Lincoln. Given Lewis's claim that the news of Lincoln's lecture "assured a full house" it seems unlikely that neither paper would have some comment on it, especially given Lincoln's known views on religion, if such a lecture ever took place. In addition, there is nothing on the website, The Lincoln Log, about a lecture. 1852 was the year that Lincoln delivered his eulogy on Henry Clay, and he was mentioned often in both papers throughout the year. I personally don't think such a lecture ever took place. But of greater importance to me, does this put into question Smith's entire testimony? In the Collected Works, Lincoln mentions that Smith was "an intimate personal friend of mine" (Vol. 6, Pg. 51) but I don't see any other reference other than second-hand testimony that Lincoln ever read The Christian's Defence nor was moved by its arguments. Even Robert Bray, in his article "What Lincoln Read" calls it unlikely that Lincoln read the book. (Bray, Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, Summer 2007 Pg. 75) It seems to me that Barton was taken in by testimony presented at the time to negate Herndon's and later Ward Hill Lamon's belief that Lincoln was an infidel.

Best
Rob

[Eva Elisabeth]

I agree on your conclusion. I think it unlikely, even though his first “Lecture on Discoveries and Inventions” (1858) had many biblical references.

[RJNorton]

I am suspicious of this speech. If Thomas Lewis were such a good friend of Lincoln's, and worked in an adjoining law office to Lincoln and Herndon, why was he not interviewed by Herndon in 1865? I would have thought Lewis would be an early and logical contact person for Herndon. If he were interviewed by Herndon, and he told about Lincoln's 1852 Bible lecture in the interview, then I would probably be more agreeable on this speech. But I am curious why there is no correspondence/interview with Lewis in Herndon's Informants.

Did Herndon consider him a poor source?

Or (possibly) did Herndon know Lewis' opinions on Lincoln and religion were different than his own and therefore purposely did not contact him?

If there were truly a full house for Lincoln's talk I would think some of the folks present were certainly among the Springfield inhabitants contacted by Herndon. if Lincoln really gave this Bible talk, why don't several people mention it? I really have doubts about this.

[Gene C]

Thanks Rob. I've read this quote attributed to Lincoln in at least one more recent book than Barton's, but I couldn't recall the source or circumstances.

(01-05-2017 07:56 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  'It seems to me that nothing short of infinite wisdom could by any possibility have devised and given to man this excellent and perfect moral code. It is suited to men in all conditions of life, and includes all the duties they owe to their Creator, to themselves, and to their fellow-men.'"

This quote has always seemed a bit 'Lincolnesque' to me, but made under different circumstances, perhaps during his White House years? (possibly when presented a Bible or meeting with leaders of a religious group)
I had never questioned it's authenticity, so thanks for sharing Fehrenbacher's "C" rating on the quote and circumstances.

[RJNorton]

In his book Abraham Lincoln: From Skeptic to Prophet, Dr. Wayne Temple appears to accept this alleged Lincoln Bible lecture as real. He writes:

"We know that Abraham sometimes participated actively in affairs held at times other than Sunday morning (at the First Presbyterian Church). Once, after taking a pew there, he addressed the Bible Society of Springfield and proclaimed stoutly that every family in the State of Illinois should have a copy of the Scriptures. This reminiscence is confirmed by Thomas Lewis who vouched that Lincoln occupied the pulpit at the First Presbyterian Church one Sunday evening and spoke on the topic of the Bible. This seems logical since Lincoln had researched the Holy Scriptures thoroughly for his lecture on Discoveries and Inventions which he gave in various cities around Illinois."

[Rob Wick]

Quote:I think it unlikely, even though his first “Lecture on Discoveries and Inventions” (1858) had many biblical references

My first thought, Eva, was maybe someone was getting the "Discoveries and Inventions" lecture confused, but there is too far a gap between dates. I still find it highly suspicious that neither Springfield paper would have had even a brief mention of the speech, or, as Roger cogently points out, that it wasn't on the minds of Lincoln's fellow townsmen and women.

Quote:This quote has always seemed a bit 'Lincolnesque' to me, but made under different circumstances, perhaps during his White House years? (possibly when presented a Bible or meeting with leaders of a religious group)
I had never questioned it's authenticity, so thanks for sharing Fehrenbacher's "C" rating on the quote and circumstances.

Gene, I too would agree that such a quote would fit in with the Lincoln who served in the White House, but even then I'm not sure it sounds as much like Lincoln as how someone might want him to sound, especially someone trying to blast Herndon who at the time Smith wrote him had delivered his Ann Rutledge lecture.

Quote:In his book Abraham Lincoln: From Skeptic to Prophet, Dr. Wayne Temple appears to accept this alleged Lincoln Bible lecture as real.

Roger, in all the other books I've looked at on Lincoln's religion, it appears that most authors do accept Smith's testimony, but it keeps coming back to me to the fact that there is no corresponding support except from people who were lay leaders of the church. Herndon pointed out in 1870 to Ward Hill Lamon and to John Remsberg in the late 1880s that Smith did give a copy of his book to Lincoln, but that Lincoln "brought it to the office laid it down--never took it up again to my knowledge--never condescended to write his name in it--never spoke of it to me..." (Herndon to Lamon, March 6, 1870 in Douglas Wilson and Rodney O. Davis, Herndon on Lincoln: Letters, Pg. 103) Herndon, of all people, would have known if such a lecture ever happened. Yet, on December 20, 1866, Herndon wrote a letter to Smith, which was published in the Chicago Tribune of March 6, 1867, in which Herndon pointedly asked Smith "Have you any writings--letters or other such like evidence--proofs to show that while you were in this city, that Abraham Lincoln was converted to the belief that the Bible was God's special miraculous revelation; that he believed in special miraculous inspiration, and miraculous conception --the miraculous conception of Jesus Christ, &c, as the orthodox Christian world teaches and preaches?" (Italics in original)

It should also be noted that Smith's reply, which was sent to Herndon, was also sent by Smith to the Dundee Advertiser in Scotland, which is how it ended up appearing in the Tribune. The paragraph containing the notice of the alleged speech was not sent by Smith to Herndon (as I had originally believed) but was sent by Smith to the editor of the Dundee paper. I left out the beginning, in which Smith wrote "N.B." which, I was unaware, meant in Latin Nota Bene, or "Note well." Why in his response to Herndon did Smith not mention Lincoln's speech? If it was as well-known in Springfield as Smith and Lewis intimate, wouldn't that have been a devastating blow in Smith's war of words with Herndon?

Best
Rob

[RJNorton]

I have an older book entitled Lincoln and the Preachers by Edgar DeWitt Jones. The book does not have an index so it's a little difficult to find specific things. But the author does devote a half-chapter to Rev. Smith, and I cannot find anything about this alleged Lincoln Bible lecture. It's the sort of thing Jones would have included, IMO, if he had believed the story. I am still a skeptic on this topic.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I think it a good point that it's unlikely none of the witnesses would have shared if it had happened. Also while he used biblical references to illustrate or argue other topics I just think it wasn't "his" job to make "preaching on the bible" itself a topic - he would have left this field to the clergy. I think he had quite too much respect to take this over.

[ELCore]

(01-06-2017 08:19 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(01-05-2017 07:56 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  'It seems to me that nothing short of infinite wisdom could by any possibility have devised and given to man this excellent and perfect moral code. It is suited to men in all conditions of life, and includes all the duties they owe to their Creator, to themselves, and to their fellow-men.'"

This quote has always seemed a bit 'Lincolnesque' to me, but made under different circumstances, perhaps during his White House years? (possibly when presented a Bible or meeting with leaders of a religious group)
I had never questioned it's authenticity, so thanks for sharing Fehrenbacher's "C" rating on the quote and circumstances.

It sounds a lot like this:

Quote:In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Saviour gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.

(September 7, 1864; “Response to Presentation of a Bible by the Loyal Colored People of Baltimore”; Speeches and Writings, Volume II, page 628; Collected Works, Volume VII, page 542; originally in the Washington Daily Morning Chronicle, September 8, 1864.)

[Rob Wick]

So, if Lincoln didn't make this speech, what does that do to the remainder of Smith's story? If one accepts that Smith lied about this, and was not simply confused as to dates, or whether Lincoln wrote an article instead of giving a lecture, then one is forced to ask what else did Smith lie about? I realize to say someone purposefully lied is a strong statement, but what else could one call it? Smith and Lewis alleged that Lincoln was not only asked to give an address but agreed to do so, prepared such a lecture, and presented it to a full house without it ever appearing in any newspaper at the time, or without Lincoln's own law partner mentioning it, or, It should be noted, any member of Lincoln's family (even if Mary wouldn't have said something, Robert, through his father's friends, would not have been as reticent, especially given his reaction to Herndon's lecture on Ann Rutledge) doing so. It seems to me that all we know for sure is that Lincoln and Smith were intimate friends, stemming from the comfort that Lincoln and Mary got after Eddie's death, that Mary joined the church and the Lincolns rented a pew but Lincoln declined to formally join, and that Lincoln appointed Smith consul to Scotland. The rest depends on whether one accepts or rejects Smith's word. So far, it seems to me to be pretty much lacking.

As for the Bible presentation, I doubt the Lincoln of 1852 would have said the same thing. Twelve years, especially after Willie's death, and the death of hundreds of thousands in a religious-soaked nation, can change a man's outlook, which I've always argued did more to explain Lincoln's views on religion than anything else. No war, and no death of Willie, and Lincoln would have died much closer to what Herndon described, save for the change that seems to often come as a man edges closer to death.

Best
Rob

[RJNorton]

This does not answer whether or not Lincoln gave a Bible lecture in 1852, but I thought I'd include an interview Herndon had with James Matheny (best man at Lincoln's wedding). The date of the interview is March 6, 1870. Matheny mentions Rev. Smith and implies that Lincoln "used him." Of course what we see here is simply Matheny's opinion, and of course, I am sure Herndon was in agreement. But could it be conceivable that Lincoln gave a Bible lecture in an effort to give off a "changed man" appearance for political gain?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"James H. Matheny tells me that from about 1854 to 1860 Lincoln played a sharp game here on the religious world, that Lincoln knew that he was to be a great man, was a rising man, was looking to the Presidency, etc., and well knowing that the old infidel, if not atheistic, charge would be made and proved against him, and to avoid the disgrace, odium, and unpopularity of it, trampled on the Christian toes, saying: "Come and convert me." The elders, lower and higher members of the churches, including ministers, etc., flocked around him and that he appeared openly to the world as a seeker; that it was noised about that Lincoln was a seeker after salvation, etc., in the Lord; that letters were written more or less all over the land that Lincoln was soon to be a changed man, etc., and thus it was he used the Reverend James Smith of Scotland, old man Bergen, and others. I have often thought that there was something in this, but can't affirm it to be so. This is Matheny's honest opinion, and no man is superior to Matheny's judgments, etc., of human nature, actions, and motives, etc. He knew Lincoln as well as I did, I think."

[Eva Elisabeth]

This is how he handled such six years prior to the alleged lecture:
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...ndbill.htm

[RJNorton]

As I look at all of the pro/con evidence on whether or not Lincoln gave a Bible lecture in 1852 I feel the weight of the evidence is that he never did this. It just doesn't "fit" with the 1852 image I have of him. Only Smith and Lewis report this; there should be many others, IMO.

[Wild Bill]

I tend to agree with you Roger. This does not seem to "fit."

[Anita]

The First Presbyterian Church of Springfield has a page on their website titled "Lincoln and First Church". http://www.lincolnschurch.org/history-ar...church.cfm
Q. The church has archives back to 1823. Additionally the church is a major tourist site with displays related to the Lincolns. The website talks about Lincoln reading Smith's book but there is no mention that Lincoln gave a speech as described by the Rev. Smith or any speech for that matter. Surely they should know. Have they been contacted?

Rob, in your lead post you say "....but I don't see any other reference other than second-hand testimony that Lincoln ever read The Christian's Defense nor was moved by its arguments. Even Robert Bray, in his article "What Lincoln Read" calls it unlikely that Lincoln read the book. (Bray, Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association, Summer 2007 Pg. 75) "

An article by William E. Phipps in the Journal of Presbyterian History ( http://phs-app-media.s3.amazonaws.com/s3...H_80_1.pdf ) states Lincoln came across "The Christian's Defense" while browsing Robert S. Todd's library. Is it known whether Robert Todd owned a copy of Smith's book?

Phipps article on pages 19-20: Lincoln told Ninian Edwards, his brother-in-law, "I have been reading a work by Dr. Smith on the evidences of Christianity and have heard him preach and converse on the subject and am now convinced on the truth of the Christian religion." The footnote is from Reed, "Religious Sentiments", 338 from a letter about Lincoln's religion that Edwards wrote him on 24 Dec. 1872. Did Edwards have a motive to make up such a story?

Personally, I agree that there's no evidence to support Lincoln gave the speech/lecture described by Smith. I do believe it's possible Lincoln read The Christian's Defense, because he knew Dr. Smith personally and enjoyed the intellectual challenge of discourse with him, and/ or he told Smith he read it for motives James H Matheny stated in Roger's post.
"James H. Matheny tells me that from about 1854 to 1860 Lincoln played a sharp game here on the religious world, that Lincoln knew that he was to be a great man, was a rising man, was looking to the Presidency, etc., and well knowing that the old infidel, if not atheistic, charge would be made and proved against him, and to avoid the disgrace, odium, and unpopularity of it, trampled on the Christian toes, saying: "Come and convert me." The elders, lower and higher members of the churches, including ministers, etc., flocked around him and that he appeared openly to the world as a seeker; that it was noised about that Lincoln was a seeker after salvation, etc., in the Lord; that letters were written more or less all over the land that Lincoln was soon to be a changed man, etc., and thus it was he used the Reverend James Smith of Scotland, old man Bergen, and others. I have often thought that there was something in this, but can't affirm it to be so. This is Matheny's honest opinion, and no man is superior to Matheny's judgments, etc., of human nature, actions, and motives, etc. He knew Lincoln as well as I did, I think."

So it could be Smith and Lincoln used each other to their own ends.