Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals

[Gene C]

With so many writers telling us about Mary's mood swings, temper, and quick wit it seems unlikely to me that she would wait for Lincoln to come back to her. I would imagine she would jump into the social scene as quick as possible and find another fellow. I don't recall reading that she did that. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

In "With Malice Towards None", Stephen Oates does a nice job writing about their courtship. I will have to find it and summarize his comments.

IMO, Herndon totally created parts of this story and slanted it to make the marriage seem doomed from the start.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Was Hendon there (at the wedding) at all? My understanding had always been no. Maybe some secret jealousy/hurt feelings?

[RJNorton]

Eva, I do not think he was there. He does not indicate that he was there in his narrative.
(Actually, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, I do not think he was at the November 4, 1842, wedding either.)

[Susan Higginbotham]

He seems to have derived the jilting story from Elizabeth Edwards. His notes read: "Lincoln & Mary were engaged -- Every thing was ready & prepared for the marriage -- Even to the supper &c -- Mr. L failed to meet his Engagement -- Cause insanity."

Weik's notes read: "Asked [her] as to marriage with Lincoln of her sister Mary Todd. She said arrangements for wedding had been made--even cakes had been baked--but L. failed to appear. At this point Mr. Edwards cautioned his wife that she was talking to newspaper man and she declined to say more. She had said that Mary was greatly mortified by Ls strange conduct."

[RJNorton]

I think it's worth noting that no marriage license was issued to Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd for January 1, 1841. On the other hand, prior to the wedding itself, they did obtain a license on November 4, 1842.

[L Verge]

(01-30-2018 12:19 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I think it can be noted that no marriage license was issued to Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd for January 1, 1841. On the other hand, prior to the wedding itself, they did obtain a license on November 4, 1842.

Well, that certainly seems to speak volumes! Is it safe to say that licenses were required in Springfield in 1841? This runaway groom story sure smacks of fake news to me - or one that has been highly elaborated on.

Is there any mention of a minister being on hand at the ceremony gone bad? If so, did the minister ever give a statement? If the Edwardses did not approve of Lincoln, was this a story that was concocted to make him look worse?

[Susan Higginbotham]

While I have my doubts about the 1841 "wedding," I don't think the lack of a marriage license is necessarily proof that a ceremony was never intended. It could be that a license was issued, but not recorded in the official records because the wedding was never solemnized.

[L Verge]

(01-30-2018 12:50 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  While I have my doubts about the 1841 "wedding," I don't think the lack of a marriage license is necessarily proof that a ceremony was never intended. It could be that a license was issued, but not recorded in the official records because the wedding was never solemnized.

Good point.

[Susan Higginbotham]

I forget whether it was Ann Todd or Frances Todd, but IIRC, one of their grooms showed up late for the wedding, requiring the ceremony to be postponed. I agree with those who suggest that in her memory, Elizabeth Edwards conflated this incident with the Mary/Lincoln breakup. But "'Tis a muddle!" as Stephen in Dickens' Hard Times would say.

[RJNorton]

(01-30-2018 02:23 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  I forget whether it was Ann Todd or Frances Todd, but IIRC, one of their grooms showed up late for the wedding, requiring the ceremony to be postponed. I agree with those who suggest that in her memory, Elizabeth Edwards conflated this incident with the Mary/Lincoln breakup. But "'Tis a muddle!" as Stephen in Dickens' Hard Times would say.

Susan, I think you may be referring to what Donna talks about in her post here.

I was reading a little of Joshua Speed's Reminiscences today, and although Speed mentions Lincoln's serious melancholy during the winter of 1840-1841, there is no mention of Lincoln being a no-show at his own wedding. Many historians feel Joshua Speed was Lincoln's best friend; I would think had there been a failed January 1, 1841, wedding Speed would have mentioned it in his Reminiscences.

(full title = Reminiscences of Abraham Lincoln and Notes of a Visit to California: Two Lectures)

[Eva Elisabeth]

If there were wedding intentions in 1841 and whoever got cold feet I don't understand the fuss about it respectively to see some negative indication "into this". As for the situation, family and other life circumstances and background of both of them in those days I find it mist understandable. For Abraham it meant quite the financial obligation in times when it wasn't to expect from wives to add income to the living, plus Mary came from a quite fastidious end of society, and I understand the worries not being able to provide his bride a likewise future. And v.v. Mary might have fretted as for losing all.

The fact that despite a possible "reasonable" or whatever reasoned separation they "couldn't let from each other" and finally married despite all these IMO speaks much more (positive).

As for the license, here a marriage isn't legally a marriage without. What about the US - would the ceremony by Rev. Dresser have been "sufficient"?

[kerry]

(01-30-2018 07:02 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Back to the topic of two weddings - did the first one happen as Herndon described or not? What is the truth? Here is what Herndon wrote:

"The time fixed for the marriage was the first day of January, 1841. Careful preparations for the happy occasion were made at the Edwards mansion. The house underwent the customary renovation; the furniture was properly arranged, the rooms neatly decorated, the supper prepared, and the guests invited. The latter assembled on the evening in question, and awaited in expectant pleasure the interesting ceremony of marriage. The bride, bedecked in veil and silken gown, and nervously toying with the flowers in her hair, sat in the adjoining room. Nothing was lacking but the groom. For some strange reason he had been delayed. An hour passed, and the guests, as well as the bride, were becoming restless. But they were all doomed to disappointment. Another hour passed; messengers were sent out over town, and each returning with the same report, it became apparent that Lincoln, the principal in this little drama, had purposely failed to appear. The bride, in grief, disappeared to her room; the wedding supper was left untouched; the guests quietly and wonderingly withdrew; the lights in the Edwards mansion were blown out, and darkness settled over all for the night. What the feelings of a lady as sensitive, passionate, and proud as Miss Todd were, we can only imagine; no one can ever describe them. By daybreak, after persistent search, Lincoln's friends found him. Restless, gloomy, miserable, desperate, he seemed an object of pity. His friends, Speed among the number, fearing a tragic termination, watched him closely in their rooms day and night. 'Knives and razors, and every instrument that could be used for self-destruction, were removed from his reach.' Mrs. Edwards did not hesitate to regard him as insane, and of course her sister Mary shared in that view."

What really happened? Did Herndon totally create this? Partially create this? Tell the truth?

He was basing it all on Elizabeth Edwards' tale, as far as I know. He then dressed it up with the details about her hair etc. as is common. The reason I don't really buy that Elizabeth confused the two sisters' weddings is 1) she first said this in 1865 or 1866 and never corrected it and 2) Ninian tells her she's talking to a journalist, aka don't reveal anything juicy.

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(01-30-2018 03:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  If there were wedding intentions in 1841 and whoever got cold feet I don't understand the fuss about it respectively to see some negative indication "into this". As for the situation, family and other life circumstances and background of both of them in those days I find it mist understandable. For Abraham it meant quite the financial obligation in times when it wasn't to expect from wives to add income to the living, plus Mary came from a quite fastidious end of society, and I understand the worries not being able to provide his bride a likewise future. And v.v. Mary might have fretted as for losing all.

The fact that despite a possible "reasonable" or whatever reasoned separation they "couldn't let from each other" and finally married despite all these IMO speaks much more (positive).

I completely agree with this. They were so different -- having doubts isn't odd; what would be odd is having no doubts in their situation. The fact that they would even consider each other shows that they weren't looking for someone just like them. Some people let it set the whole tone of the marriage, as though even if there was a rough beginning, after 20 years and 4 kids together there wasn't any attachment; it was just a matter of "honor." I do find it significant that Speed said they married for honor, but there is no way all the people who married "for love" after knowing each other in a chaperoned manner for 3 months were in love. The fact is, most people married for practical reasons hopefully mixed with some spark of attraction, and a bond developed with time. To me, it is much more significant that they couldn't stay apart after what was obviously some sort of breakup, even if we can't pin it down. And that they didn't find others despite being on the high end of marriageable age. They also shared a love of banter, satire, politics, and permissive parenting that Lincoln may not have found with the more 'traditional' woman people are always saying Lincoln would have been more domestic with. The fact that he got anywhere near Mary would lead me to believe he was intrigued by women who were not docile. The vast majority of the presidents, in my opinion, enjoyed having a wife who challenged them and actively sought that. The first ladies were all pretty cool women. People who spent time with them at the White House always commented that they were different but got along well; undoubtedly there were incidents, especially in Springfield, but Gourley who spent a lot of time with them came to the same judgment.

[Gene C]

This from "Journal of Abraham Lincoln Association, Winter 1993,
"William H Herndon and His Lincoln Informants" by Douglas Wilson

The most casual reader of modern Lincoln biography soon learns how Herndon botched the story of Lincoln's courtship of Mary Todd and described, down to the bridal flowers, an aborted wedding ceremony that never happened. And the aficionados of Mary Todd Lincoln, whose numbers are steadily growing, know all too well that Mary's character and reputation have had to be rescued from an opprobrium unfairly inflicted on her by Herndon's harsh and malicious portrait.

The well-informed student knows that Herndon was a drunk, that he was self-important and boastful of his intuitive powers, that he claimed credit for having introduced Lincoln to advanced views, that he coached his informants to tell him what he wanted to hear, and that he ignored testimony that he did not believe or could not accept, while at the same time giving credence to doubtful evidence

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/262986...w=fulltext

[kerry]

Caroline Heally Dall wrote Herndon told her Mary was the most sensual woman he ever knew, but she was not hurried easily into vice, if I'm reading her handwriting correctly. I requested her papers, which are not published - I'm not sure I can post that, but it is only a snippet. Sounds suspiciously like he tried and failed...

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kerry, I'm afraid I don't really get that post. What does "she was not hurried easily into vice" mean?