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Sally · 01-13-2018, 07:46 PM

I felt the need to jump into this discussion because I’m on the side of Team Robert. I believe he has been unfairly maligned by historians, particularly with regard to his role in Mary Lincoln’s “incarceration.” I feel that this is another case of us looking at history through our modern-day lenses, and not from the point of view of the time. Mental/emotional illness is a difficult thing for any family to face, even today. And although there unfortunately remains a stigma attached to it, attitudes toward the “insane” were far worse in the 1870’s. As we all know, there was no medication, no real, helpful therapy, and little true understanding of either the root of mental illness, or the proper way to treat it. Now, I am also a fan of Mary Lincoln. (Snarl to Michael Burlingame and his type!) But no one disputes that Mary suffered from serious emotional problems and was in a particularly bad state in the mid-1870’s. Her behavior put her in great danger both physically and (less importantly) financially. Robert had to do something. He was still fairly young and depended on the advice of people like David Davis, who was a friend of his father’s. Robert didn’t want to have his mother committed so that he could filch her money. I believe he honestly wanted to get her the help she needed. And he did not lock her up in some snake pit and forget about her. Bellevue Place was the best treatment facility in the area at the time. (Kind of like those fancy Malibu rehab centers celebrities go to nowadays.) Yes, Mary did lose her freedom, which is always difficult, but she was not mistreated there. And Robert came to visit her a number of times. I believe he truly loved his mother, and it must have been very difficult for him to see her in that state and have to make the decisions he did. In Jason Emerson’s “The Madness of Mary Lincoln”, he cites newspaper stories that described Robert crying during the court proceedings. That was genuine emotion. RTL wasn't much of an actor!

As for his behavior at other times in his life, I will say he did behave like a snotty, entitled brat at the time of Lincoln’s first election. As we all know, the Lincolns overindulged all their children, especially Willie and Tad, but it’s likely Robert had a pretty free rein too. So by his teenaged years he was a typical, insolent, self-involved college kid. (And let’s be honest, we have all known that type in our own lives!) Had Willie and Lincoln survived for another 30 years, both Willie and Tad would probably have been just as bad (possibly worse) at that age than their big brother was.

But the traumas RTL endured, starting with his father’s assassination, did force him to grow up. Yes, he could come across as condescending and snotty to people who didn’t know him. Much of that can be attributed to his natural shyness and his almost pathological need for privacy. I can’t blame him for the latter. He spent most of his life hearing really horrible criticisms flung at his entire family. I’d want to avoid the public eye too. But there is much evidence that he had a great sense of humor, and he had many, long-time friends who loved him and remained loyal. It could be argued these friends were almost exclusively wealthy and white. That’s regrettable, but again, typical of the time.

I am disappointed to read stories of his alleged disregard for the problems of Pullman workers. Sadly, that sort of behavior has always been and still is typical of business tycoons. How much do any of today’s CEO’s really care about the welfare of the rank and file? Would they be as generous as they are to their employees if they weren’t legally required to do so? Now, would Robert’s father have behaved that way in a similar situation? Probably not. But the vast majority of men in Robert’s position would and did and still do. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying that no one is a saint. It's unfair to judge Robert's behavior against what his father's would have been. Abraham Lincoln was a truly unique and incredible person. Most of us are just normal, flawed humans.

As for RTL’s ability to amass a huge fortune, I don’t think that should be held against him. It was the Gilded Age—the era of robber barons and huge fortunes. RTL’s fortune was fairly modest in comparison to many others of the day, and there is scant evidence of corruption in his business and political/diplomatic careers.

Considering his wealth, was RTL as generous as he could have been? I can’t judge. He did support charities and good causes in the area around his estate in Vermont. I may be naïve, but I like to think he was quietly generous. Again, he did not want to broadcast his doings publicly.

As for Mary Harlan Lincoln, I confess I’m not much of a fan. Then again, my negative impressions of her are based on virtually no evidence. She is an enigma. Like her husband, Mary was extremely private. I want to know more about her, and their eldest daughter, Mamie. But they left behind very little to shed light on their personalities. On the other hand, Jessie, the youngest, was a real piece of work. So were her two offspring. They are all really difficult people to like, based on what is known of them. But I try not to be too critical because there’s evidence suggesting that they all struggled with some level of emotional illness. Heredity?

Anyway, I hope I haven’t angered or offended anyone on the forum. I just felt I had to stand up for Robert. (Whether he deserves it or not!)

AussieMick · 01-13-2018, 08:22 PM

I certainly dont disagree with any of that Sally. Most people know of someone that has/ is suffering from mental illness. I know I do. I wish I could have been of more help. Which brings me to the point ... if we were in Robert's place how would we have behaved at that time?

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 09:25 PM by kerry.)

(01-13-2018 06:32 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-13-2018 09:37 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: As for the words to his mother, can someone share the original source? Thanks much.

Eva, I have seen that quote in more than one book I own but never with a source. The books all say "an observer" heard or "a witness" heard, but never identify who the person was who heard Robert say this. I, too, hope someone can post the original source.

One of the books I have that includes this quote with no source is Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals. (p. 742)

Are you asking about the "trust in God" comment? I believe that was widely reported in the aftermath of the assassination in 1865. It was likely a common thing to say at the time in such a situation.

New York Tribune: April 16
https://www.newspapers.com/image/3293017...n%2Bgod%22

Personally, while I've explained before I sympathize with Robert for many reasons, I take issue with his actions because he never seemed willing to acknowledge who Mary was. There were people who could deal with her, and those who could not. Some people were able to accept that a (good many) people are eccentric and embarrassing, and they get to live outside an institution anyways. Now it is possible that Mary was doing things that placed her in real danger, but because of the way the trial was conducted, we never got all the information. I understand Robert wanting to keep it low key, but depriving someone of a defense in that situation is not fair. It's also clear that for all Mary's reckless spending, she was spending very little of her principal and had transferred much of the wealth to him. She seems to have had a sudden breakdown at that time in the hotel - maybe her existing mental health problems combined with the anniversary, fever, and too much medication justified a short stay. But I don't believe she was a good candidate for a long term stay, and Robert should have known it. And I think he did - he was clearly hesitant to move forward, and had hesitated for a long time. I don't believe he was after her money and I believe he had real concerns. But I think he had a narrow-minded view of life, in part as a coping mechanism, and he lacked the ability to see that the real problem was a system that treated him as responsible for his mother, as though women lacked agency, when clearly someone like Mary Lincoln had her own way of life and was capable of living it. I think he let embarrassment get the best of him more than concern for her - I don't think concern for her was absent, but nowhere does he ever even acknowledge her intelligence or just say she's a loud or assertive person. That she's just different. He seemed oddly in denial about her personality. Basically, while I acknowledge things were different back then, I still must give credit to those at the time who, regardless of norms, were able to accept people who were different. It was not impossible. Grant had a mentally ill brother wandering around the Republican convention at some point, and he let him out. Robert did not seem to try and understand the situation, and his inability to acknowledge the nuances was not just the way things were. Myra Bradwell and Professor Swing and Elizabeth Edwards were able to assess the situation fully and talk about her like a real, thinking person. Robert was in a tough situation, but I'm not sure he handled it correctly. That doesn't mean I think he was in on an evil plot or anything - it was more mundane than that, a lack of imagination.

ScholarInTraining · 01-13-2018, 09:30 PM

(01-13-2018 09:37 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Thank you for your reply, Scholar in training. I actually was solely interested in the evidence you claimed he DID believe in God.
In your post #121 you wrote (and already did jump to say that RTL was a Deist) :
"He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff -"

So if I understand correctly that "we should never cease our thanks to God" in that speech is the evidence you were thinking of as well as the words to his mother someone witnessed according to this:
https://books.google.at/books?id=tPqgC3R...ll&f=false
Thanks for sharing.
As for the words to his mother, can someone share the original source? Thanks much.

The speech is here:
http://alplm-cdi.com/chroniclingillinois.../show/8326
https://books.google.at/books?id=3XLTAAA...ft&f=false

The passage does sound like the Gettysburg Address to me (well, his father used "inspiration" from other writings, too, most likely also for that speech), and God in commemorative speeches is certainly a welcome tribute to the bereaved as well as "letting his father speak through" at this very occasion (i.e. just sells better). Similarly God might have been the last attempt to "reach" and console his mother. Sure Robert could have left God out of both.

I wonder if in the letters you mentioned in post #121 there's some more personal revelation? (Sincere, honest question, I would honestly be interested in.)

Whatever God he might have believed in or not to whatever degree, at least I personally feel some of his actions or lack thereof aren't in line with Christian values (which actually goes for many confirmed Christians, and vv.).

Well, to look at one example, remember when he wrote to John Hay that "God willing (he would) never again be in the jaws of that damning hyena, the public at large"? He was complaining about all the craziness around his being nominated for President of this Republican group called the American Protective Tariff League at the time. I want to say this was 1886.

Again, this excerpt from the conversation could be interpreted at first glance as a figure of speech. But I think the mention of God - especially His will at all - is telling for at least three reasons.

1. We know how very strongly RTL hated public attention. Yes, social gatherings with family and friends were fine. But the heckling media? No way!

2. Irreligion/nonreligion in the definitive sense has been ruled out.

3. Although we know that RTL liked to sometimes joke around and use a lot of witty humor in his writings, I don't think he was going to kid around about a belief in God given his situation.
And to better understand his situation, we need to know how he felt about it.

**With apologies to Robert Todd Lincoln, this is for educational purposes.**

Here is what he told Hay:

"I won't attempt to write you as I am going to do the Committee but for your own private ears here are two reasons against my accepting. There is no good reason why I should be selected as the formal head of a League and to anyone who gives it a thought the inquiry is at once suggested what has he done to entitle him to such a place and why does he take it? I am pretty happy just now. I am let alone in the papers and I don't want my name in them again until I am assured of the regular complimentary notes written by some member of my afflicted family with "no flowers" attached. Like Nanki Pooh, I won't be there to see it, but I don't mind that. God willing I will never again be in the jaws of that damning hyena the public at large and no man of my profession could enter the place suggested without being charged with having his lightning rod up as they say."

RJNorton · 01-14-2018, 05:12 AM

(01-13-2018 09:07 PM)kerry Wrote: Are you asking about the "trust in God" comment

Yes. Doris Kearns Goodwin writes, "An eyewitness noted that Robert Lincoln "bore himself with great firmness, and constantly endeavored to assuage the grief of his mother by telling her to put her trust in God."

This would have happened in the front parlor of the Petersen House. I have seen the same quote in several books, but never with a source. All that is ever said is that it was overheard by "a witness" or "an observer." The fact that there are never any footnotes or endnotes makes me wonder about it. The fact that W. Emerson Reck does not include it in his wonderful book makes me wonder about it even more.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 08:19 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(01-13-2018 09:30 PM)ScholarInTraining Wrote:
(01-13-2018 09:37 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Thank you for your reply, Scholar in training. I actually was solely interested in the evidence you claimed he DID believe in God.
In your post #121 you wrote (and already did jump to say that RTL was a Deist) :
"He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff -"

So if I understand correctly that "we should never cease our thanks to God" in that speech is the evidence you were thinking of as well as the words to his mother someone witnessed according to this:
https://books.google.at/books?id=tPqgC3R...ll&f=false
Thanks for sharing.
As for the words to his mother, can someone share the original source? Thanks much.

The speech is here:
http://alplm-cdi.com/chroniclingillinois.../show/8326
https://books.google.at/books?id=3XLTAAA...ft&f=false

The passage does sound like the Gettysburg Address to me (well, his father used "inspiration" from other writings, too, most likely also for that speech), and God in commemorative speeches is certainly a welcome tribute to the bereaved as well as "letting his father speak through" at this very occasion (i.e. just sells better). Similarly God might have been the last attempt to "reach" and console his mother. Sure Robert could have left God out of both.

I wonder if in the letters you mentioned in post #121 there's some more personal revelation? (Sincere, honest question, I would honestly be interested in.)

Whatever God he might have believed in or not to whatever degree, at least I personally feel some of his actions or lack thereof aren't in line with Christian values (which actually goes for many confirmed Christians, and vv.).

Well, to look at one example, remember when he wrote to John Hay that "God willing (he would) never again be in the jaws of that damning hyena, the public at large"? He was complaining about all the craziness around his being nominated for President of this Republican group called the American Protective Tariff League at the time. I want to say this was 1886.

Again, this excerpt from the conversation could be interpreted at first glance as a figure of speech. But I think the mention of God - especially His will at all - is telling for at least three reasons.

1. We know how very strongly RTL hated public attention. Yes, social gatherings with family and friends were fine. But the heckling media? No way!

2. Irreligion/nonreligion in the definitive sense has been ruled out.

3. Although we know that RTL liked to sometimes joke around and use a lot of witty humor in his writings, I don't think he was going to kid around about a belief in God given his situation.
And to better understand his situation, we need to know how he felt about it.

**With apologies to Robert Todd Lincoln, this is for educational purposes.**

Here is what he told Hay:

"I won't attempt to write you as I am going to do the Committee but for your own private ears here are two reasons against my accepting. There is no good reason why I should be selected as the formal head of a League and to anyone who gives it a thought the inquiry is at once suggested what has he done to entitle him to such a place and why does he take it? I am pretty happy just now. I am let alone in the papers and I don't want my name in them again until I am assured of the regular complimentary notes written by some member of my afflicted family with "no flowers" attached. Like Nanki Pooh, I won't be there to see it, but I don't mind that. God willing I will never again be in the jaws of that damning hyena the public at large and no man of my profession could enter the place suggested without being charged with having his lightning rod up as they say."

That was one considerable example (yet an idiom), thank you.
Just curious - why is it so important for you that he "was" no atheist respectively that he "believed" in" God"? Would you consider atheism as a "negative feature"?

kerry · 01-14-2018, 11:56 AM

(01-14-2018 05:12 AM)RJNorton Wrote:
(01-13-2018 09:07 PM)kerry Wrote: Are you asking about the "trust in God" comment

Yes. Doris Kearns Goodwin writes, "An eyewitness noted that Robert Lincoln "bore himself with great firmness, and constantly endeavored to assuage the grief of his mother by telling her to put her trust in God."

This would have happened in the front parlor of the Petersen House. I have seen the same quote in several books, but never with a source. All that is ever said is that it was overheard by "a witness" or "an observer." The fact that there are never any footnotes or endnotes makes me wonder about it. The fact that W. Emerson Reck does not include it in his wonderful book makes me wonder about it even more.

I think you can find it here: New York Tribune: April 16
https://www.newspapers.com/image/3293017...n%2Bgod%22

I'm not sure if you can access the article.

RJNorton · 01-14-2018, 01:29 PM

Unfortunately I cannot access the article. I was hoping to find the identity of the "witness" or "observer" who was quoted. IMO, the folks who remained in the parlor with Mary Lincoln are the most likely choices. The names that come to mind are Clara Harris, Elizabeth Dixon, Mary Kinney, and Constance Kinney. Along with Robert Lincoln, there may have been a few others who stayed to comfort Mary throughout the night. Perhaps the name of the person who was thus quoted is lost to history. I am just a little surprised that all we know is that it was "a witness" or "an observer."

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 03:04 PM by kerry.)

Try this: http://jmp.sh/nnEwgTl

It was an extremely detailed report by someone who was obviously there, as almost everything was corroborated. I'll have to figure out who the source was. Maunsell Field wrote one of the long reports, but I don't think it was him.

It was originally from the Herald. B.B. French mentioned writing a report for one of the papers, but I forget which one.

ETA: It was definitely one of the Herald's official correspondents, writing the night of the incident. I don't know who it was. Many of the men mention Robert comforting his mother, so the person did not need to have been in the parlor with Mary.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 03:01 PM by L Verge.)

(01-14-2018 01:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Unfortunately I cannot access the article. I was hoping to find the identity of the "witness" or "observer" who was quoted. IMO, the folks who remained in the parlor with Mary Lincoln are the most likely choices. The names that come to mind are Clara Harris, Elizabeth Dixon, Mary Kinney, and Constance Kinney. Along with Robert Lincoln, there may have been a few others who stayed to comfort Mary throughout the night. Perhaps the name of the person who was thus quoted is lost to history. I am just a little surprised that all we know is that it was "a witness" or "an observer."

One of the Petersen daughters comforted Mary Lincoln that night. Could it have been she (and thus forgotten to history)?

RJNorton · 01-14-2018, 03:54 PM

(01-14-2018 03:01 PM)L Verge Wrote: One of the Petersen daughters comforted Mary Lincoln that night. Could it have been she (and thus forgotten to history)?

That is a possibility. You are referring to Pauline. I did check Kathy Canavan's book and Robert Bain's book, and both discuss Pauline's role in comforting Mary. I wonder if Kathy Canavan might know the original source of the quote (although I cannot find that she included it in her book). If I am right about Kathy not including the quote, that means that two authors who wrote extremely detailed accounts of the goings-on at the Petersen House did not include it (Reck being the other). I guess I will remain skeptical of the quote until we have a name.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 01-14-2018 08:03 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

"Many of the men mention Robert comforting his mother, so the person did not need to have been in the parlor with Mary." - how can we be sure of the person forwarding the correct wording then?

Thanks for the clipping, Kerry!

kerry · 01-14-2018, 10:10 PM

(01-14-2018 08:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: "Many of the men mention Robert comforting his mother, so the person did not need to have been in the parlor with Mary." - how can we be sure of the person forwarding the correct wording then?

Thanks for the clipping, Kerry!

It seems that we cannot be sure. I did find that Dr. Gurley said those words to her, so perhaps there was confusion. It does seem like something that anyone would have said in that situation, but there is no way of knowing Robert's exact words.

ScholarInTraining · 01-14-2018, 11:16 PM

(01-14-2018 05:57 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Just curious - why is it so important for you that he "was" no atheist respectively that he "believed" in" God"? Would you consider atheism as a "negative feature"?

? It's not important only for me. The question as to what his religious beliefs were came about, so some of us stepped in to give our answers. I showed how it's inaccurate to label RTL as nonreligious or atheist. I say "label" because it's just that. An inaccurate... label.

The following is a sobering account of what happened when he went to pay a visit to the Lincoln Memorial during his final year:

"February 1926, Bishop Joseph O.Hartzell was visiting the Rev. Herbert F. Randolph, Pastor of the Foundry Methodist Church, Washington, D.C. The Bishop expressed a desire to visit the Lincoln Memorial, stating as his reason that he was old and feeble and probably would never get to see it again.

The streets and sidewalks were covered with ice. They were standing with the Guard in front of the Lincoln statue when the Guard in hushed voice motioned them behind one of the large pillars, and whispered to them that the old gentleman who was being helped up the steps by his colored servant was Robert Lincoln, the aged son of our martyred President.

Mr. Lincoln dismissed his colored attendant, limped his way with the aid of his cane to the statue of his father, stood reverentiy looking into his for a few minutes, then fell on his knees in prayer for some time, and rising he kissed the foot of the statue, waved a kiss to his face, and departed.

That was the last time Robert Lincoln ever looked upon the marvelous image of his father, our beloved Abraham Lincoln.

(signed)

E.E. Helms."

Now if it hadn't have been that these men happened to see Robert there and decided to write about it, this moment would have been lost in time forever.

Robert thought he was alone. Perhaps he'd done this several times.

To the world, his father was the great ABRAHAM LINCOLN. To his sons, he was just their dad.

So as for religion...only God knows (and I mean that wholeheartedly) what RTL did and said and thought 24/7, 365 days a year, and what sort of religious activities he took part in.

Remember: for every eyewitness testimonial, telegram, and letter that has been saved, who knows how many were lost to time, are under private ownership, are illegible, are yet to be found, or have been destroyed?

One could theorize that even if RTL considered himself to be nonreligious in a misused sense of the term, which I can't find any evidence of, he became more religious as he got older.

As for why it's important to me.....well, why are any of these topics important to anyone? Big Grin

It means you're passionate about something. Willing to learn more about that thing and throw in what you know about it to add to the pot of knowledge. It means you like to go searching for truth on your own instead of blindly accepting whatever. And it's fun!

Just as it's important to some to continually try to prove that RTL wasn't a good guy, it's important to me to continually try to do the opposite. Too many myths and outright lies about the Lincoln family have been presented as "fact" for way too long! I think it shows respect to the Lincolns, to scholars, and to historians to try to refute as many of them as we can.

No, I don't like that Robert's reputation has been destroyed by the likes of William Herndon - who couldn't stand any of the Lincoln sons - and authors who did the same thing unknowingly and/or for dramatic effect.

For some of the most striking examples of this, check out the books "The Inner World Of Abraham Lincoln", "Lincoln's Sanctuary: Abraham Lincoln and the Soldier's Home", and "The Lincolns: A Scrapbook Look At Abraham and Mary".

Lincoln books can be spot on about some things and very wrong about others. No offense to the authors. But when they allow personal emotions and nonexpert opinions to deliberately OR inadvertently present some inaccuracy as irrefutable fact, it destroys so much. Knowledge, book reports, documentaries, et cetera...

When the average person half-reads a book, they're not always going to question something. They're not even going to look at sources and references, they're going to take it and run with it.

Especially if it's super dramatic - like the idea that Abraham Lincoln's oldest child was "the bad son".

RJNorton · 01-15-2018, 05:09 AM

(01-14-2018 11:16 PM)ScholarInTraining Wrote: or have been destroyed?

I have a question for anyone who would like to try to answer. I think it is accepted by historians that Robert destroyed those family papers and letters he considered to be too personal (or shed bad light) to be publicly shared. My question has to do with Mary's letter posted here. All I can say is how my brain works - if I received a letter from my mother such as that I would not want it shared with the world. Robert had the opportunity to burn it, but he did not. Any thoughts on why it was not destroyed as many others were?