Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals

[L Verge]

What is left of St. Elizabeth's (Government Hospital for the Insane during Lincoln's time) is basically on my home turf. In 15-20 minutes, I can get to its grounds. Any of you who have participated in the Surratt Society's bus tours over the escape route of JWB have been within blocks of the property as we cross over the Navy Yard Bridge and turn left to go up through what is now Anacostia (Uniontown in 1865).

In the late-1940s, my father was stationed at Bolling AFB, which is in close proximity to the institution, and before the freeways, we went past the grounds to St. E's when we went to the BX, commissary, and health clinic on base. Before the campus was divided for use by the Department of Homeland Security, a new hospital facility, and future development for the city, it was a sprawling and beautiful complex, with one portion dedicated to a scenic overlook where you could see most of the major buildings in DC. The campus was so spread out, that some people could get permission to get into this area to watch the fireworks around the Monument on July 4th. There is/was a large cemetery there with graves of Civil War soldiers, black and white, as well as other patients.

The oldest building, the Center Building, still stands but has been totally gutted for renovation with only the exterior walls remaining. Those walls date to 1855, and their bricks were actually dug from the clay on property and fired there. I vaguely remember them looking more like a sandy pink color than red bricks. I also suspect that those early buildings (the campus dates to 1852 - a decade before Lincoln would have been threatening his wife with incarceration) have undergone restorations and renovations over the years. The earliest photo that I found of Center Bldg appears to be late-19th century and is very light in color.

It is also important to note that in the Lincolns' time, there was more than just one building that comprised the Government Hospital for the Insane. Center had West Wing, East Wing, but there were also separate "lodges" for black inmates, one for males and one for females. In the C-Span documentary that I am going to lead you to at the end, photos of these lodges clearly show them to be painted white. Perhaps one of those was visible from the White House.

The route that I use to get into the city is via Suitland Parkway (the presidential route from Joint Base Andrews and Air Force One to the city), and part of the hospital's grounds are on my left going in. One of my staff members also pointed out that, as we cross the South Capitol Street Bridge, we can see the White House -- even today with the multitude of buildings. Both the city and the Maryland shore was sparsely developed in 1865. In fact, the site for the hospital was chosen because it was wide-open farmland that was thought to help calm the patients and also be worked as farmland for occupational therapy. The name St. Elizabeth's was actually taken after the Civil War and comes from the original plantation on the property.

My point is that I disagree with Jean Baker as to whether or not one could see the hospital (or any part of it) from the White House. I would love to know her source for claiming that no window in the White House had a view, especially in 1865.

Speaking of Jean Baker, I have heard her speak a number of times and do like her book and thoughts. However, she is just as protective of Mary Lincoln as Jason Emerson is critical of the First Lady. She is a very "stern" and "sobering" speaker, and in the past, I have seen her become almost rude to audience members who have brought up some of the negative points that history traditionally tells us about Mary. I have the inclination to suspect that she would pooh-pooh Mrs. Keckly's observation (if it is true) because it lends more credence to the fact that Mrs. Lincoln was emotionally - and maybe mentally - unstable.

Anyhow, the National Building Museum in the old Pension Building had a large, special exhibit on the history of St. Elizabeth's this past summer. I'm not sure if it is still up, but C-Span did a great program on it. If you have an extra hour, go to: https://www.c-span.org/video/?431999-1/s...s-hospital

Meanwhile, I have a volunteer who works on the campus and has made friends with the historians there. He will now have a homework assignment... He came through for several of us a few years ago when we were able to prove a Lincoln-assassination researcher wrong on something. I also will contact the National Building Museum to see what their thoughts are. Hopefully, more will be revealed!

[L Verge]

(12-18-2017 12:19 PM)L Verge Wrote:  What is left of St. Elizabeth's (Government Hospital for the Insane during Lincoln's time) is basically on my home turf. In 15-20 minutes, I can get to its grounds. Any of you who have participated in the Surratt Society's bus tours over the escape route of JWB have been within blocks of the property as we cross over the Navy Yard Bridge and turn left to go up through what is now Anacostia (Uniontown in 1865).

In the late-1940s, my father was stationed at Bolling AFB, which is in close proximity to the institution, and before the freeways, we went past the grounds to St. E's when we went to the BX, commissary, and health clinic on base. Before the campus was divided for use by the Department of Homeland Security, a new hospital facility, and future development for the city, it was a sprawling and beautiful complex, with one portion dedicated to a scenic overlook where you could see most of the major buildings in DC. The campus was so spread out, that some people could get permission to get into this area to watch the fireworks around the Monument on July 4th. There is/was a large cemetery there with graves of Civil War soldiers, black and white, as well as other patients.

The oldest building, the Center Building, still stands but has been totally gutted for renovation with only the exterior walls remaining. Those walls date to 1855, and their bricks were actually dug from the clay on property and fired there. I vaguely remember them looking more like a sandy pink color than red bricks. I also suspect that those early buildings (the campus dates to 1852 - a decade before Lincoln would have been threatening his wife with incarceration) have undergone restorations and renovations over the years. The earliest photo that I found of Center Bldg appears to be late-19th century and is very light in color.

It is also important to note that in the Lincolns' time, there was more than just one building that comprised the Government Hospital for the Insane. Center had West Wing, East Wing, but there were also separate "lodges" for black inmates, one for males and one for females. In the C-Span documentary that I am going to lead you to at the end, photos of these lodges clearly show them to be painted white. Perhaps one of those was visible from the White House.

The route that I use to get into the city is via Suitland Parkway (the presidential route from Joint Base Andrews and Air Force One to the city), and part of the hospital's grounds are on my left going in. One of my staff members also pointed out that, as we cross the South Capitol Street Bridge, we can see the White House -- even today with the multitude of buildings. Both the city and the Maryland shore was sparsely developed in 1865. In fact, the site for the hospital was chosen because it was wide-open farmland that was thought to help calm the patients and also be worked as farmland for occupational therapy. The name St. Elizabeth's was actually taken after the Civil War and comes from the original plantation on the property.

My point is that I disagree with Jean Baker as to whether or not one could see the hospital (or any part of it) from the White House. I would love to know her source for claiming that no window in the White House had a view, especially in 1865.

Speaking of Jean Baker, I have heard her speak a number of times and do like her book and thoughts. However, she is just as protective of Mary Lincoln as Jason Emerson is critical of the First Lady. She is a very "stern" and "sobering" speaker, and in the past, I have seen her become almost rude to audience members who have brought up some of the negative points that history traditionally tells us about Mary. I have the inclination to suspect that she would pooh-pooh Mrs. Keckly's observation (if it is true) because it lends more credence to the fact that Mrs. Lincoln was emotionally - and maybe mentally - unstable.

Anyhow, the National Building Museum in the old Pension Building had a large, special exhibit on the history of St. Elizabeth's this past summer. I'm not sure if it is still up, but C-Span did a great program on it. If you have an extra hour, go to: https://www.c-span.org/video/?431999-1/s...s-hospital

Meanwhile, I have a volunteer who works on the campus and has made friends with the historians there. He will now have a homework assignment... He came through for several of us a few years ago when we were able to prove a Lincoln-assassination researcher wrong on something. I also will contact the National Building Museum to see what their thoughts are. Hopefully, more will be revealed!

No solid info yet, but my volunteer reminded me that President Lincoln visited the hospital and the military patients and would have known the color of the building. The soldiers and sailors were mainly housed in the Center Building and wings.

He also told me that since the early 1900s, everyone incorrectly spells the name of the hospital as St. Elizabeth's - which was the original name of the land on which it was built. However, in some report, some member of Congress or an errant clerk dropped the apostrophe out of the name, and its "official" name is actually St. Elizabeths.

[RJNorton]

(12-18-2017 08:47 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thanks, Roger, that makes sense (visible from Soldiers' Home). Since Keckly didn't specify it was a White House window and she indeed was at the Soldiers' Home with the Lincolns at times (if I recall correctly) it might have happened there. On the other hand to call red brick white seems quite unrealistic to me.

Eva, still I wonder about the quote's authenticity. When I read what was written on that web page, the first thing that came to my mind was that Willie died in the winter (February 20th). The Lincolns spent the summers at the Soldiers' Home, and they were not there when Willie died. According to Lincoln Day by Day, they did not move there until June 13, 1862. Keckly wrote that the incident happened weeks after Willie's funeral. So I have assumed March (or April at the latest). The Lincolns would have still been at the White House, not the Soldiers' Home.

Can you tell I have my doubts about this quote? (Just a personal opinion)

[L Verge]

I have very serious doubts that there was any view of the Soldiers' Home from the White House, and it certainly was not known as a mental facility (Mrs. Keckly states "lunatic asylum").

Having done a bit of research on Elizabeth Keckly when the Surratt Society raised funds to mark her grave about a decade ago, I have a lot of faith in her words and believe she was a very honorable lady. If anyone wrote falsely in her book, it would have been the publisher -- and I suspect he or his editor would have had no idea whether or not the Government Hospital for the Insane was visible from the White House.

[Susan Higginbotham]

I agree. Even if Lincoln did not use the exact words attributed to him (and the quote does sound a little "dressed up"), I think the substance of it is correct.

[L Verge]

I could not get this view of the grounds of St. Elizabeths looking into the city to reproduce, but go here to view it: https://www.google.com/search?q=Civil+Wa...3693560586

You can see the Capitol across the river, and the White House (though not visible) would be 16 blocks to the left. Remember also that the Lincolns would have been on the second floor of the building (private quarters), giving an even better view -- and looking out over a lot of swamp land.

[kerry]

My best guess would be Keckley did say something along those lines, and the ghostwriter dressed it up, as you are supposed to writing using details like color and texture to make the reader picture the scene. It's less natural to talk that way. I think the dialogue was likely made much punchier, but the substance was probably true. As I think is true of most books about Lincoln, even by people who were direct witnesses. I don't think exact accuracy of quotes was considered as necessary as now. My impression from the book and interviews is that Keckley saw that mental state as a temporary grief reaction, and did not consider her anywhere near insane during the Old Clothes scandal, just nervous, angry, impulsive, etc.

[RJNorton]

This is a question that probably can not ever be answered with certainty.

Here is another opinion. It comes from Mike Burkhimer's 100 Essential Lincoln Books. In discussing Mrs. Keckly's description of certain scenes in the White House, Mike writes:

"Much more controversial is the recounting of Lincoln taking his grief-stricken wife to a window and pointing in the direction of an asylum. Lincoln supposedly said, "Mother, do you see that large white building on the hill yonder? Try to control your grief, or it will drive you mad, and we will have to send you there." Historians will long debate the truth of that episode."

[L Verge]

Unless something is written down in the subject's own handwriting, how can anyone truly determine the veracity of the statement or even the occasion upon which it supposedly occurred? Isn't that one of the great pitfalls of attempting to be a historian? If Francis Carpenter or Ward Hill Lamon had heard Lincoln say that to Mary, would they have been taken more seriously than Elizabeth Keckly?

[RJNorton]

Good question. I checked the Fehrenbachers' book, and all three people are given mostly C's and D's regarding their quote recollections. Lamon, the exception, is even given some E's. (E = "a quote that is probably not authentic"). Neither Mrs. Keckly nor Carpenter ever receive any grade below "D."

Regarding Mrs. Keckly's story of the large white building, they give it a "D." (D= "a quotation about whose authenticity there is more than average doubt"). This is because they use Jean Baker's assessment that the building was not visible from the White House. Otherwise, my guess is that it would have received a "C."

Quotes given a "C" refer to ones that are recorded noncontemporaneously.

I once talked to Tom Schwartz about quote verification, and it was Tom's opinion that the Fehrenbachers' book is the second best resource after The Collected Works.

[ScholarInTraining]

(12-19-2017 03:31 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Unless something is written down in the subject's own handwriting, how can anyone truly determine the veracity of the statement or even the occasion upon which it supposedly occurred? Isn't that one of the great pitfalls of attempting to be a historian? If Francis Carpenter or Ward Hill Lamon had heard Lincoln say that to Mary, would they have been taken more seriously than Elizabeth Keckly?

They were definitely taken more seriously, considering gender and racial prejudices back then. :-(

I do wonder what the people's response was to the release of her book.

I think we should merge all of this over into a different or new thread?

[AussieMick]

"Unless something is written down in the subject's own handwriting, how can anyone truly determine the veracity of the statement or even the occasion upon which it supposedly occurred? Isn't that one of the great pitfalls of attempting to be a historian? "

I agree. Issues that seem important to test veracity:-

Did the author personally hear the words spoken?

Are the words or their 'content' similar to those spoken by the subject (in this case Lincoln) on any other occasion?

Has anyone other than the author suggested that the subject spoke those words or voiced similar thoughts?

[L Verge]

(12-19-2017 04:37 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I think it would well have matched his as well as many men's kind of humor to say such jokingly to "get out of"/relax a serious situation, especially when feeling helpless as for what real "smart" to say or do. Who knows what "scene" Mary had performed, and with Ms Keckly around he possibly felt under pressure to say something to relief the tension. Mary probably behaved "childish", and how many parents wouldn't use similar and most fabulating "if-you-don't"- threads to calm a kid down? (My mother's favorite was "...I'll give you to the orphans home".) And then he told jokes in the most serious situations to get relief himself while others found it most inappropriate and annoying.

However, I also think any serious consideration thereof 100% didn't match his personality, I don't believe he ever seriously would have done.

I don't believe either that Mr. Lincoln would have committed his wife to an asylum, but we know that his son sure did!

I also agree that such a statement as his would have been a normal male response of the time to try and curb hysterical behavior. I'm sorry, but most males are not raised to be of a nurturing and sympathetic nature when put to the true test. Look around you today, and I'll bet that most caregivers are females of the family.

This past year, we had a speaker at one of the Surratt House programs on the frequency of women being committed to insane asylums, especially in the 19th century. I asked her for her text and hope to run it soon in the Courier newsletter. Trust me, it didn't take much to be committed.

[AussieMick]

Apparently, when Queen Victoria was newly crowned there were attempts by those opposed to her that tried to commit her and install the Duke of Cumberland.

[kerry]

Carpenter is taken very seriously now, but Mary and others at the time accused him of exaggerating his knowledge.

At the time Keckley's book was released, though it was apparently suppressed, huge extracts were published in all leading newspapers, and the newspapers seemed to give it credibility, although many deplored the idea that servants could write tell-alls and thought it was trashy. Many suggested Mary was really responsible for it. It's pretty clear that the reason they gave it so much credibility is because they liked the appeal of its content, though - no one went and talked to Keckley until much later. It gave great soundbites about each member of the cabinet and other figures. Some reviews suggested a former slave could not have written it. One complained that it was too one-sided and Keckley had not given enough explanation for why her owner felt compelled to beat her. It's definitely clear that accounts written by women were generally overlooked, even though they give a much clearer picture than the accounts of most men at the time. It's also definitely clear that women were institutionalized unnecessarily and men weren't expected to have much patience. However, I don't think Lincoln took such things lightly. It seems like if anyone would have mentioned his consideration of an institution, it would be Rebecca Pomeroy, or maybe in Browning or French's diaries. They were in the thick of the situation. But apparently there is nothing there.


I've found that this is a good explanation of the situation for women at the time.
https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/vi...ontext=etd