Was Stanton a murder target?
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12-08-2016, 12:02 PM
Post: #136
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-08-2016 10:23 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I am catching up late but this has been a very captivating thread! I think your assessment of a woman's "place" at that time is accurate, Scott. If Mrs. Grant was overly concerned, she would have alerted her husband or one of his close aides. I also agree that Julia "enlarged" the incident in hindsight years later - perhaps to show that her husband could have been a target also? I've have never seen mention of a military escort accompanying the General and Julia to the train, but I would have to assume there was one. How did Booth manage to slip that close to the carriage? |
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12-08-2016, 03:20 PM
Post: #137
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-08-2016 12:02 PM)L Verge Wrote:(12-08-2016 10:23 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I am catching up late but this has been a very captivating thread! Laurie. I do not know what the plans were - every time Grant went somewhere, but I have read that when Grant left Washington on the 14th, to visit his children, and arrived in Philadelphia (The end of the line for that Railroad) he was met by an Army delegation, complete with several Ambulances, to take the Grant party (I'm sure he had Aides traveling with him) to the Delaware River and put them on a boat to get him to Camden and onto the next train. Every one had to do this. This indicates to me that when "The Commander in Chief" moved about, even on other than Official Business, there was someone nearby watching out for his comfort and safety. In my day, in the military and my work in the Pentagon, that entourage was called "brownoses". (Pardon my French) |
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12-08-2016, 03:47 PM
Post: #138
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
Over two years ago Kees made a very informative post which discusses part of the topic at hand here.
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12-08-2016, 04:10 PM
Post: #139
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-08-2016 04:59 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(12-08-2016 02:33 AM)John Fazio Wrote: When she saw him again at the luncheon, she might just have thought that the White House messenger was having lunch with a few friends, even if one of them was behaving weirdly. She was not likely to conclude that he was part of a conspiracy to murder someone simply because he was first at her door and then in the dining room. Roger: Well, as I said, she was probably made uncomfortable by her experiences with Booth that day, but they simply weren't enough for her to imagine that they were part of a gigantic plot to decapitate the U.S. government, with special attention to its Chief Executive. Her focus at the time was Burlington and a visit with her kids and she just wasn't thinking too seriously about anything else. I doubt that many in her circumstances would have done it differently, especially taking into consideration the fact that she had an intense dislike for Mary Lincoln. Another consideration was the fact that the war was over and everyone assumed, therefore, that the danger of assassination had passed. Everyone, that is, except Lincoln and those closest to him, like Lamon and Stanton, who tried to protect him, but failed. John |
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12-08-2016, 08:49 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2016 08:57 PM by John Fazio.)
Post: #140
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-08-2016 10:23 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I am catching up late but this has been a very captivating thread! Lincolnite: I agree with your well reasoned analysis. The fact that I agree with it is proof positive that it is well reasoned. The social role of women in the mid-19th century is probably not relevant. Human nature is immutable. People behave very similarly in similar circumstances, everywhere and for all time. "I am I and my circumstances", said the famous Spanish philosopher Jose Ortega y Gasset. Truer words were never spoken. The more things change, the more they stay the same. John |
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12-10-2016, 01:25 AM
Post: #141
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-07-2016 10:04 AM)loetar44 Wrote:DISAGREE.(12-06-2016 12:45 PM)John Fazio Wrote: Friends: |
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12-10-2016, 08:21 AM
Post: #142
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-10-2016 01:25 AM)John Fazio Wrote: We have here another conundrum in connection with the assassination. When you go the doctor to get your flu and pneumonia shot, be sure to get one for the conundrums. (blue mass pills don't help) So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in? |
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12-10-2016, 02:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-10-2016 04:45 PM by loetar44.)
Post: #143
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-10-2016 01:25 AM)John Fazio Wrote: Demond's letters place Booth and Herold on the Maryland side of the Navy Yard Bridge on the night of the 13th-14th NOT ON THE NIGHT; ONLY IN THE MORNING OF THE 14TH and both were incarcerated in the Block House until noon NOT NOON; UNTIL 2:00 OR 3:00 April 14th, because they had refused to give Demond their names. Carrie Bean is the first who saw Booth appr. this time in the breakfast room of the National. She knew him and she responded to his bow of recognition. A DOPPELGANGER? John, In all honesty I have always had great problems with any “doppelganger-theory”. And, I have real doubts concerning the “sighting” of Booth and Herold in the morning of April 14, 1865 at the Navy Yard (Eastern Branch) Bridge, more doubts than I have with Booth’s “sighting” in the breakfast room of the National. This is what Lieutenant David Dana said in the Boston Daily Globe (Dec. 12, 1897, pg 36) in the article “He Almost Saved Lincoln”: “On Friday, April 14, 1865, two men appeared before the guard on the road leading into Washington from the east. Refusing to give their names or state their business, they were arrested and put in the guard tent, whence they were to be sent to headquarters. This was about 1 o’clock in the afternoon. In a hour or two they gave their names as Booth and Harold [sic].” … “Booth and Harold [sic] were released as soon as the orders reached the guard, and they proceeded at once to Washington, reaching there about 6.30 in the afternoon. I had a guard at each end of the bridge on the eastern branch of the Potomac, and one of the guards knew Booth, and recognized him as he rode into the city, and as he came out after the assassination, and had it been known that he had killed Lincoln escape would have been impossible.” If this statement is true, or near the truth, then Booth was back in DC at about 6.30 in the afternoon of April 14, 1865, just ca. 3½ hours before he murdered Lincoln. But Booth was seen that day (April 14) in DC a lot of times BEFORE 6.30 pm. Do we conclude here: "Was it Booth or a “doppelganger”? Please note: - Had O’Lauglen (twice?) a meeting with Booth in the National? Or with Booth’s doppelganger? - Who greeted Carrie Bean in the breakfast room? A doppelganger? - Charles Wood trimmed Booth’s hair and dressed it. Or was it a doppelganger? - Who was in Grover’s Theatre, Booth or a doppelganger? - Who spoke (round noon?) with John F. Coyle? A doppelganger? - Who was in Mary Surratts pension? A doppelganger? - Who spoke with Henry Clay Ford? A doppelganger? - Who rented the bay mare at James W. Pumphrey? A doppelganger? - Who visited Paine / Powell ca. 2 pm in the Herndon House? A doppelganger? - Who was at de Kirkwood House? A doppelganger? - Who gave John Mathews the letter for The National Intelligencer? A doppelganger? - Who glanced unfriendly into Gen. Grant’s carriage at appr. 5 pm? A doppelganger? - Who was in the Greenback Saloon and Taltavull's Star Saloon? A doppelganger? OR: were Booth (and Herold) on the Navy Yard Bridge NOT Booth (and Herold) because the men were doppelgangers? It’s most unbelievable that the streets of DC in April 1865 were lined with (unwitting) clones! You mentioned Capt. James William Boyd as a possible look-alike of Booth. He was certainly NOT. He had reddish hair and had freckles. Of course some people resemble one another, but it’s absurd to use this as an argument in a believable research. The overall chance of finding someone who looks like Booth is really very small. There where someone else sees a spooky resemblance, another person certainly will not even notice a fleeting similarity. So, I don’t like such highly subjective interpretations. We are like snowflakes. No two are the same, even if at first glance they all look small, white and spiky. Let’s not talk about “doppelgangers”. Science suggests that doppelgangers should not exist. Mathematically speaking, the number of variables in any face is so large that it would be virtually impossible to meet someone who is identical to a known person. Why are conspiracy theories always filled with look-alikes and doppelgangers? |
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12-10-2016, 05:51 PM
Post: #144
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in? |
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12-10-2016, 08:34 PM
Post: #145
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
Speaking of doppelgangers... I posted something last night that has not yet appeared, so maybe I forgot to hit the right button. First, I agreed with John Stanton that the Mrs. Howell mentioned in a previous post was likely Gus Howell (of trial fame!).
I then referred to insignificant research that I did years ago on the Illuminati (after reading Dan Brown's novels). On a blog entitled theforbiddenknowledge there was a reference to the Rothchilds. In that, Booth is linked to that famous family as well as Augustus Belmont (sound familiar?). Some of the notes I jotted down referred to the B'nai B'rith organization being a pivotal player in the British Freemasonry plot to destroy our Union. Mention was made of a D.C. lawyer named Simon Wolf, a member of the D.C. Order of B'nai B'rith and a look-alike to Booth, whom he had met with in Cleveland. The site also claimed that Wolf and Booth drank together at Willard's on the morning of the assassination. Booth supposedly told Wolf that Lucy had rejected his proposal. The blog also tied in Confederate General Albert Pike (big in Freemasonry) as a member of the Illuminati; claimed that the Knights of the Golden Circle were funded by the Scottish Rite; and that August Belmont was involved with the Confederacy, having married the daughter of John Slidell (Trent Affair). Have fun with all that... |
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12-11-2016, 02:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2016 02:24 PM by John Fazio.)
Post: #146
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-10-2016 02:41 PM)loetar44 Wrote:(12-10-2016 01:25 AM)John Fazio Wrote: Demond's letters place Booth and Herold on the Maryland side of the Navy Yard Bridge on the night of the 13th-14th NOT ON THE NIGHT; ONLY IN THE MORNING OF THE 14TH and both were incarcerated in the Block House until noon NOT NOON; UNTIL 2:00 OR 3:00 April 14th, because they had refused to give Demond their names. Carrie Bean is the first who saw Booth appr. this time in the breakfast room of the National. She knew him and she responded to his bow of recognition. A DOPPELGANGER? Kees: Easy boy, I wasn't serious about the doppelganger; I was merely trying to highlight the flagrant inconsistency between Demond's letters (especially the one of June 12, 1916) and everything we know from other sources about the movements of Booth and Herold on April 14. Demond, and, later, as you point out, Dana, seem certain of the identity of the two men at the bridge, differing only on time of arrival and time of release. I frankly do not know how to reconcile the accounts. I doubt that anyone is intentionally lying (for what purpose?),so there must be another explanation. If you can offer one, other than the doppelganger theory, I am all ears. John (12-10-2016 08:34 PM)L Verge Wrote: Speaking of doppelgangers... I posted something last night that has not yet appeared, so maybe I forgot to hit the right button. First, I agreed with John Stanton that the Mrs. Howell mentioned in a previous post was likely Gus Howell (of trial fame!). Laurie: This is largely Greek to me, which is not to say that there is no merit to any of it. The only thing I can say with some degree of comfort is that August Belmont was a very wealthy and powerful Copperhead, perhaps the most prominent of the bunch, that his Fifth Avenue mansion in New York was used as a meeting place for Copperheads, that Booth is known to have attended at least one of those meetings, that if he attended one, he almost certainly attended more than one, that Arnold said that Booth often went to New York for more money, which fits with the Belmont connection, as does Atzerodt's reference to "the New York crowd", that there was a reference in Surratt's trial to meetings of conspirators in a New York mansion or mansions, and that McClellan's, Wood's and Belmont's presence in Europe at the time of the assassination is suspicious. John |
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12-12-2016, 08:38 AM
Post: #147
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-11-2016 02:11 PM)John Fazio Wrote: Kees: As we have discussed before, Frederick Demond and David Dana are NOT reliable sources due to the huge discrepancies in their later accounts and the heavy influence of Finis Bates on both of them. In this way, there is NO reliable evidence that places John Wilkes Booth in Maryland on the morning of April 14th. See this thread: http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...l#pid50430 and David Dana's error filled account: https://boothiebarn.files.wordpress.com/...rticle.pdf |
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12-12-2016, 06:54 PM
Post: #148
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-12-2016 08:38 AM)Dave Taylor Wrote:(12-11-2016 02:11 PM)John Fazio Wrote: Kees: I place no faith in Demond because one of Herold's sisters said that her brother was at home in D.C. in time for breakfast. This is consistent with the Huntt story that he left their home before they got up (when does the rooster crow in April?). Even leaving as late as 7 am, Herold would have reached D.C. by 9 am if no further stops were made. |
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12-12-2016, 08:35 PM
Post: #149
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(10-15-2016 09:26 AM)loetar44 Wrote: It's been a long time since we met, but here I am again. Hope you all doing well !Who Was David Stanton? I think I have him for you. I offer David Erasmus Stanton. Born 11 Sep. 1842. in Holliday's Cove, VA (now W. VA.) Died 8 Dec. 1867, His father was Dr. Erasmus Darwin Stanton and his Mother Nancy ( Hooker) Stanton. Dr. Erasmus Stanton was Edwin McMasters Stanton brother. So, David Stanton was Edwin's nephew. It appears that the two families were "Close", and David lived in Edwin's family in the 1850. If you attempt further research be aware of the errors showing in Erasmus' name. Sometimes it is Erasmus Darwin, sometimes he is Darwin Erasmus, or Darwin Edgar. |
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12-13-2016, 05:23 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2016 05:48 AM by loetar44.)
Post: #150
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RE: Was Stanton a murder target?
(12-12-2016 08:35 PM)SSlater Wrote: [quote='loetar44' pid='61708' dateline='1476541613'] Thank you SSlater. I came to the same conclusion. See my post #34 in this thread, in answer to John F.'s remarks. I wrote: John, David Stanton was certainly not a son of Secretary Stanton. He had a son from his first wife (Edwin Lamson, born Aug 12, 1842; 22 years old in April 1865), and he had a surviving son from his second wife (Lewis Hutchinson, born Jan. 12 1860, too young in April 1865). Was David Stanton a nephew? E(rasmus) Darwin Stanton was Stanton’s only brother, born July 17, 1816. He committed suicide on Sept.23, 1846. He was married with Nancy Hooker and had a son David Erasmus Stanton, born in 1842 (22 or 23 years old in April 1865) and two daughters: Lucy D. Stanton (born in 1845, 19 or 20 years old in April 1865) and Mary Darwin Stanton (born in 1846, married John Hugh Ely). John, I think you are right by saying that David “was surely a relative”. He was (I think) the 22/23 year old David E. (“young David”). And "Miss Lucy Stanton", who was in Stanton's home on the 13th was David’s sister. Both were children of Stanton’s brother Darwin. Riddle solved??? When Darwin committed suicide David was 3 or 4 years old, Lucy was ca. 1 and Mary just born, or posthumous. I don’t know if David, Lucy and Mary grew up in the household of Secretary Stanton. If the answer is “yes” (and I suspect that), than it declares that David was seen as Secretary Stanton’s son!" Thanks again for confirming this. BTW. You say David was born Sep 11, 1842, so he was 22 years 7 months old in April 1865; indeed "young David"! Do you (or anyone else) know the exact birth dates of his sisters Lucy and Mary? |
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