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Angela · 07-11-2016, 11:29 AM

Oh wow, Roger, the two pictures next to each other make it really difficult.
But I would agree - the chin looks different and the forehead of the woman on the left appears shorter towards the hairline.
But then...who would be in such a picture?
Really, really difficult!

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 04:21 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

What irritates me the most - the left lady seems to smile, her facial expression positive, almost cheerful. After Willie's death Mary's facial expression to my eyes looked depressive in all other photos.

RJNorton · 07-11-2016, 12:57 PM

(07-11-2016 11:10 AM)L Verge Wrote: I would also suspect that Mary would want to be placed in the middle of that photo, not tucked behind the flora and fauna.

My memory is very foggy, and I do not recall where I saw this, but I will post a vague memory. I think, for some reason, John Nicolay originally owned this photo, been in charge, and he may have actually positioned the people as they are seen in the image (placing himself in the center). If this vague memory is correct, he may have put Mary (if it be her) off to the side and not named her at the time. I think it is historical fact that John Nicolay was not a fan of Mary Lincoln ("The Hellcat").

I don't recall where I saw this description of what happened during the photo session, and I probably should not post such speculation.

I only post in the hopes this will possibly bring out a memory or information others may have read that either support or reject what I just posted.

One question I have: was Lloyd Ostendorf the very first person to publish this image and identify the "mystery woman" as Mary Lincoln? Or had this been done previously?

Eva Elisabeth · 07-11-2016, 04:49 PM

The site Dr. Houmes linked to says: "Ostendorf was in error as to the date of the photograph and misidentified all of the Native Americans."

Eva Elisabeth · 07-12-2016, 04:49 AM

(07-11-2016 08:52 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Any opinions? Is it Mary? I tried to find a photo also taken in 1863 for comparison. In Lloyd Ostendorf's book on Mary Lincoln photos, he lists the one on the right as having been taken in the fall of 1863.

So these two photos were taken roughly 6 months apart (if Ostendorf is accurate on the date).

I'm really on the fence - could it be the lady in the left photo is wearing the same earrings as Mary in the right photo?

RJNorton · 07-12-2016, 05:00 AM

I agree about the earrings, Eva. I checked to see what the Kunhardts had to say in their book entitled Looking for Lincoln. They agree with Lloyd Ostendorf and identify the woman as Mary Lincoln.

I just don't know....

Gene C · (This post was last modified: 07-12-2016 09:47 AM by Gene C.)

I don't know either, but if it's not Mary, who could it be?
A chaperone (or mother) to one or more of the young ladies in the photo?
Wife of some one from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, accompanying the Indians in the photo?
Some one Nicolay invited in at the last minute?

Is that Kate Chase to the immediate left of Nicolay? (his right)

RJNorton · 07-12-2016, 11:15 AM

(07-12-2016 09:45 AM)Gene C Wrote: Is that Kate Chase to the immediate left of Nicolay? (his right)

Gene, I think it is. In the link Blaine posted (#9 in this thread) Kate Chase is listed as being in the photo.

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 07-16-2016 12:19 PM by L Verge.)

Back to the original title of this thread: Last week, when the news came out about pernicious anemia possibly being one of Mary Lincoln's affliction, I did a little googling. One of the articles online stated this:

"After Mary died of what was thought to be a stroke on July 16, 1882, an autopsy revealed a brain tumour. How long it had been there is unknown, but it might have explained her mood swings and eccentricities."

I don't remember ever reading this elsewhere and, so far, have not found another mention online. Is it true? Did anyone even autopsy the body?

http://www.doctorsreview.com/history/nov..._medicine/

RJNorton · 07-16-2016, 12:33 PM

As far as I know there was no autopsy (no post mortem examination of Mary's remains at all).

Houmes · 07-16-2016, 01:57 PM

(07-16-2016 12:18 PM)L Verge Wrote: Back to the original title of this thread: Last week, when the news came out about pernicious anemia possibly being one of Mary Lincoln's affliction, I did a little googling. One of the articles online stated this:

"After Mary died of what was thought to be a stroke on July 16, 1882, an autopsy revealed a brain tumour. How long it had been there is unknown, but it might have explained her mood swings and eccentricities."

I don't remember ever reading this elsewhere and, so far, have not found another mention online. Is it true? Did anyone even autopsy the body?

http://www.doctorsreview.com/history/nov..._medicine/

There was no autopsy as her physician, Dr T.W. Dresser, would have been in attendance and noted it. In addition, her son Robert T. Lincoln would not have allowed it in view of his obsessive history regarding family privacy. I suspect the myth of Abraham and wife Mary having syphilis started when William Herndon mentioned it when writing a letter to a friend, later published in Emanuel Hertz's book The Hidden Lincoln: From the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon (1938). Gore Vidal later explained that his source for both of them being infected was from the Herndon letter. Two reputable sources: W.A. Evans in his book Mrs. Abraham Lincoln: A Study of Her Peronality and her Influence on Lincoln (1932) and N. Hirschhorn in his journal article Mary Lincoln's final illness: a medical and historical reappraisal Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences (1999) involved both authors spending a great deal of effort and never finding any evidence of an autopsy, concluding any diagnosis or description was presumed to be supposition.

RJNorton · 07-16-2016, 04:29 PM

(07-16-2016 01:57 PM)Houmes Wrote:
(07-16-2016 12:18 PM)L Verge Wrote: Back to the original title of this thread: Last week, when the news came out about pernicious anemia possibly being one of Mary Lincoln's affliction, I did a little googling. One of the articles online stated this:

"After Mary died of what was thought to be a stroke on July 16, 1882, an autopsy revealed a brain tumour. How long it had been there is unknown, but it might have explained her mood swings and eccentricities."

I don't remember ever reading this elsewhere and, so far, have not found another mention online. Is it true? Did anyone even autopsy the body?

http://www.doctorsreview.com/history/nov..._medicine/

There was no autopsy as her physician, Dr T.W. Dresser, would have been in attendance and noted it. In addition, her son Robert T. Lincoln would not have allowed it in view of his obsessive history regarding family privacy. I suspect the myth of Abraham and wife Mary having syphilis started when William Herndon mentioned it when writing a letter to a friend, later published in Emanuel Hertz's book The Hidden Lincoln: From the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon (1938). Gore Vidal later explained that his source for both of them being infected was from the Herndon letter. Two reputable sources: W.A. Evans in his book Mrs. Abraham Lincoln: A Study of Her Peronality and her Influence on Lincoln (1932) and N. Hirschhorn in his journal article Mary Lincoln's final illness: a medical and historical reappraisal Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences (1999) involved both authors spending a great deal of effort and never finding any evidence of an autopsy, concluding any diagnosis or description was presumed to be supposition.

Thank you, Blaine. For anyone interested, the article Blaine referenced is online here.

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 07-17-2016 12:17 AM by Gencor.)

(07-11-2016 09:46 AM)Gene C Wrote: I'm just guessing, but I'll say the one on the left is not Mary.
The nose is similar, but the eyes, the chin, and lines around the mouth don't seem to match.

I don't think that it is Mary either. It would be startling to think that her facial features would have changed that much so quickly and the picture really doesn't resemble her.

(07-16-2016 04:29 PM)RJNorton Wrote:
(07-16-2016 01:57 PM)Houmes Wrote:
(07-16-2016 12:18 PM)L Verge Wrote: Back to the original title of this thread: Last week, when the news came out about pernicious anemia possibly being one of Mary Lincoln's affliction, I did a little googling. One of the articles online stated this:

"After Mary died of what was thought to be a stroke on July 16, 1882, an autopsy revealed a brain tumour. How long it had been there is unknown, but it might have explained her mood swings and eccentricities."

I don't remember ever reading this elsewhere and, so far, have not found another mention online. Is it true? Did anyone even autopsy the body?

http://www.doctorsreview.com/history/nov..._medicine/

There was no autopsy as her physician, Dr T.W. Dresser, would have been in attendance and noted it. In addition, her son Robert T. Lincoln would not have allowed it in view of his obsessive history regarding family privacy. I suspect the myth of Abraham and wife Mary having syphilis started when William Herndon mentioned it when writing a letter to a friend, later published in Emanuel Hertz's book The Hidden Lincoln: From the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon (1938). Gore Vidal later explained that his source for both of them being infected was from the Herndon letter. Two reputable sources: W.A. Evans in his book Mrs. Abraham Lincoln: A Study of Her Peronality and her Influence on Lincoln (1932) and N. Hirschhorn in his journal article Mary Lincoln's final illness: a medical and historical reappraisal Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences (1999) involved both authors spending a great deal of effort and never finding any evidence of an autopsy, concluding any diagnosis or description was presumed to be supposition.

Thank you, Blaine. For anyone interested, the article Blaine referenced is online here.

I have mentioned this here before, but when I was in school, I remember when we were studying Lincoln that the nuns told us that Mary Lincoln died of Syphilis. Until I came here, I didn't know any different. In all of mu studies of Kate Chase, I always just thought of Mrs. Lincoln as a very smart woman but a woman with a terrible sadness about her who was plagued by depression. Of course, when I read about this diagnosis today, I was intrigued.

(07-16-2016 12:18 PM)L Verge Wrote: Back to the original title of this thread: Last week, when the news came out about pernicious anemia possibly being one of Mary Lincoln's affliction, I did a little googling. One of the articles online stated this:

"After Mary died of what was thought to be a stroke on July 16, 1882, an autopsy revealed a brain tumour. How long it had been there is unknown, but it might have explained her mood swings and eccentricities."

I don't remember ever reading this elsewhere and, so far, have not found another mention online. Is it true? Did anyone even autopsy the body?

http://www.doctorsreview.com/history/nov..._medicine/

I believe that there couldn't have been an autopsy, or if there was one, it disappeared before it was ever made public. The reason I believe this, is because if there was an autopsy, there would not have been all of these years of speculation about what she died of. We would have it confirmed and know for sure. Her cause of death, if anyone really knew back then, would be recorded in history as fact. We would not be speculating and guessing, even today, if there was a true record of the cause of death.

(07-12-2016 09:45 AM)Gene C Wrote: I don't know either, but if it's not Mary, who could it be?
A chaperone (or mother) to one or more of the young ladies in the photo?
Wife of some one from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, accompanying the Indians in the photo?
Some one Nicolay invited in at the last minute?

Is that Kate Chase to the immediate left of Nicolay? (his right)

Gene, when I saw the photo, I wondered the same thing. Its the slight tilt of the head, if you notice. That is her trademark. I don't think that we can know for sure but it does resemble her and that slight tilt just made me wonder if it is her in the photograph.

RJNorton · 07-17-2016, 04:17 AM

(07-17-2016 12:00 AM)Gencor Wrote: I believe that there couldn't have been an autopsy, or if there was one, it disappeared before it was ever made public. The reason I believe this, is because if there was an autopsy, there would not have been all of these years of speculation about what she died of. We would have it confirmed and know for sure. Her cause of death, if anyone really knew back then, would be recorded in history as fact. We would not be speculating and guessing, even today, if there was a true record of the cause of death.

Genna, on January 3rd, 1889, Mary's doctor, Dr. Thomas Dresser, wrote a letter to Jesse Weik. He wrote about Mary's death as follows:

"She died in this City July 16th 1882 In the late years of her life certain mental peculiarities were developed which finally culminated in a slight apoplexy, producing paralysis, of which she died. Among the peculiarities alluded to, one of the most singular was the habit she had during the last year or so of her life of immersing herself in a perfectly dark room, and for light using a small candle light, even when the sun was shining bright out of doors. No urging would induce her to go out into the fresh air. Another peculiarity was the accumulation of large quantities of silks and dress goods by the trunk and cart load, which she never used, and which accumulated until it was really feared that the floor of the store room would give way. She was bright and sparkling in conversation and her memory remained singularly good up to the very close of her life. Her face was animated and pleasing; and to me she was always an interesting woman; and while the whole world was finding fault with her temper and disposition, it was clear to me that the trouble was a cerebral disease."

What I think may have happened is that Dresser's wording..."certain mental peculiarities were developed which finally culminated in a slight apoplexy, producing paralysis, of which she died" plus his use of the phrase "cerebral disease"... may have been misinterpreted as meaning a brain tumor. From there the story became embellished by adding an autopsy. So we start out with "cerebral disease," and over time the story of Mary's death is enlarged to include an autopsy which showed a brain tumor. This is false as no autopsy was performed.

As far as I know, there is not 100% agreement among doctors as to what she died of. (Blaine, please correct me if I am wrong.)

L Verge · (This post was last modified: 07-17-2016 11:14 AM by L Verge.)

I have a general question of the times in which she died: How many autopsies were performed period in the U.S. - especially on people who died under a doctor's care with symptoms of their ailments already well-noted? How many of the deceased were even taken out of their homes at the time of death? Weren't many of the bodies prepared for burial and then brought to the family's parlor for viewing? Weren't many taken straight from the parlor to the cemetery for burial?

Wasn't this the case of Mary Lincoln?

For some reason, I remembered an analogy of two pine trees that grew intertwined until a storm destroyed one and caused the other to wither and die. Off I went a-googling and found the story in this link:

https://marylincolnscoterie.com/about/ma...d-funeral/

Thank you, Donna McCreary! And Mary Lincoln was one who had a church funeral after a home viewing. However, it does not appear that her body left the Edwards' home until time for the procession to the church.