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Gene C · (This post was last modified: 07-04-2016 06:01 PM by Gene C.)

Thanks for posting that link Eva.
I will have to print that off for this years Springfield Tour.
When we tour some of these historic places, it is interesting to note how many items are period furnishings, but were never owned or used in the building we are touring.

Many museums have so many items that they don't have room to display, and they are stored in a separate building or warehouse.

(07-04-2016 03:26 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Here's an interesting site on the Lincolns' furniture and it's whereabouts:
https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_b...iond-j.htm

Tadsecrete · (This post was last modified: 07-04-2016 06:43 PM by Tadsecrete.)

(07-04-2016 05:48 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(07-04-2016 08:55 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Does there exist an inventory of items that Mary took FROM the White House after the assassination? I know that she gave some items away to Ms. Keckley, etc.

(If you read on you will find that Tad in the Chicago beginnings wasn't able to spell.)

I have heard this argument before and wonder how he ever carved his name on the back of the rocker that was in Springfield BEFORE the White House.

And, don't be so snide, I found the information extremely helpful in knowing that there were no large pieces of furniture shipped from Washington to Chicago.

Gene C · 07-04-2016, 06:56 PM

First thing I learned to read and write was my name.
Tad may have been able to read/recognizes and spell his name, while he was tutored at the White House, but learned little else.

Maybe

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 07:03 AM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(07-04-2016 06:56 PM)Gene C Wrote: First thing I learned to read and write was my name.
Tad may have been able to read/recognizes and spell his name, while he was tutored at the White House, but learned little else.

Maybe

That's a valid point, Gene.

(07-04-2016 06:41 PM)Tadsecrete Wrote:
(07-04-2016 05:48 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(07-04-2016 08:55 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Does there exist an inventory of items that Mary took FROM the White House after the assassination? I know that she gave some items away to Ms. Keckley, etc.

(If you read on you will find that Tad in the Chicago beginnings wasn't able to spell.)

I have heard this argument before and wonder how he ever carved his name on the back of the rocker that was in Springfield BEFORE the White House.

And, don't be so snide, I found the information extremely helpful in knowing that there were no large pieces of furniture shipped from Washington to Chicago.

I apologize for possibly sounding snide resulting from my perception that whatever info I had put in and whatever time I took for thinking about your questions before wasn't much appreciated. I'm glad you found this helpful and am really sorry.

(07-04-2016 03:51 PM)Tadsecrete Wrote: Or, better known as the LIHO report. Mr. Cornelius lives and breath's it. If it ain't in the LIHO report, then it doesn't exist.

I cannot see any rocker listed there, or did I overlook it?

Tadsecrete · 07-05-2016, 11:33 AM

[/quote]
I cannot see any rocker listed there, or did I overlook it?
[/quote]

See post #12 of this thread.

RJNorton · 07-05-2016, 12:52 PM

Is there evidence that it was Tad who actually made the carving in the rocker?

William Herndon wrote, "He (Lincoln) was in the habit, when at home on Sunday, of bringing his two boys, Willie and Thomas – or “Tad” – down to the office to remain while his wife attended church. He seldom accompanied her there. The boys were absolutely unrestrained in their amusement. If they pulled down all the books from the shelves, bent the points of all the pens, overturned inkstands, scattered law-papers over the floor, or threw the pencils in the spittoon, it never disturbed the serenity of their father’s good-nature. Frequently absorbed in thought, he never observed their mischievous but destructive pranks, as his unfortunate partner did, who thought much, but said nothing. And, even if brought to his attention, he virtually encouraged their repetition by declining to show any substantial evidence of parental disapproval."

He also wrote, "Lincoln would, when his wife had gone to church, to show off her new bonnet, or when she had kicked him out of the house, bring to the office Willie and Tad— these little devils . . . would take down the books, empty ash buckets, coal ashes, inkstands, papers, gold pens, letters, etc., etc., in a pile and then dance on the pile. Lincoln would say nothing, so abstracted was he, and so blinded to his children’s faults."

If it was family habit to carve into furniture, etc. would Herndon have not included this in his list of complaints? IMO, a law office would be full of possible items to carve upon.

Brian and Rachel, I am sorry, but I remain unconvinced.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 01:53 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

I cannot see any rocker listed there, or did I overlook it?
[/quote]

See post #12 of this thread.
[/quote]
Yes, my question referred (and still does) to that rocker - where is it in the Lincoln furniture list I linked to (post #98), which you commented as follows:
"Or, better known as the LIHO report. Mr. Cornelius lives and breath's it. If it ain't in the LIHO report, then it doesn't exist"?

I additionally second Roger's question: What proof/evidence is there that Tad carved that into the rocker? The museum's website doesn't reveal (or I cannot find).

Thanks for any information on these two questions

Tadsecrete · 07-05-2016, 01:50 PM

(07-05-2016 12:52 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Is there evidence that it was Tad who actually made the carving in the rocker?

William Herndon wrote, "He (Lincoln) was in the habit, when at home on Sunday, of bringing his two boys, Willie and Thomas – or “Tad” – down to the office to remain while his wife attended church. He seldom accompanied her there. The boys were absolutely unrestrained in their amusement. If they pulled down all the books from the shelves, bent the points of all the pens, overturned inkstands, scattered law-papers over the floor, or threw the pencils in the spittoon, it never disturbed the serenity of their father’s good-nature. Frequently absorbed in thought, he never observed their mischievous but destructive pranks, as his unfortunate partner did, who thought much, but said nothing. And, even if brought to his attention, he virtually encouraged their repetition by declining to show any substantial evidence of parental disapproval."

If it was family habit to carve into furniture, etc. would Herndon have not included this in his list of complaints? IMO, a law office would be full of possible items to carve upon.

Brian and Rachel, I am sorry, but I remain unconvinced.

They (Willie and Tad) received pen knives AFTER they left Sprinfield.

L Verge · 07-05-2016, 01:50 PM

Just a comment: This subject got me so confused about my furniture categories that I had to look up the difference between a chest of drawers, a bureau, and a dresser.

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 01:59 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

(07-05-2016 01:50 PM)Tadsecrete Wrote:
(07-05-2016 12:52 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Is there evidence that it was Tad who actually made the carving in the rocker?

William Herndon wrote, "He (Lincoln) was in the habit, when at home on Sunday, of bringing his two boys, Willie and Thomas – or “Tad” – down to the office to remain while his wife attended church. He seldom accompanied her there. The boys were absolutely unrestrained in their amusement. If they pulled down all the books from the shelves, bent the points of all the pens, overturned inkstands, scattered law-papers over the floor, or threw the pencils in the spittoon, it never disturbed the serenity of their father’s good-nature. Frequently absorbed in thought, he never observed their mischievous but destructive pranks, as his unfortunate partner did, who thought much, but said nothing. And, even if brought to his attention, he virtually encouraged their repetition by declining to show any substantial evidence of parental disapproval."

If it was family habit to carve into furniture, etc. would Herndon have not included this in his list of complaints? IMO, a law office would be full of possible items to carve upon.

Brian and Rachel, I am sorry, but I remain unconvinced.

They (Willie and Tad) received pen knives AFTER they left Sprinfield.

This is what the museum's website says:
"Lincoln Home Artifacts

The museum houses several artifacts from the Lincoln Home in Springfield, Illinois. This rocker belonged to Tad Lincoln, the youngest of Abraham Lincoln’s four sons. In a time when material possessions were few, this rocker exhibits the pride that Tad had in his chair, and exemplifies the mischief that the Lincoln boys often created. Young Tad was likely aged 7 or 8 when he carved with a pocketknife his name on the back of his chair."

They don't reveal how they safely know.

Tadsecrete · 07-05-2016, 01:59 PM

So, now we are questioning the authenticity and validity of the Tad Lincoln rocker?

Eva Elisabeth · (This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 02:11 PM by Eva Elisabeth.)

Yes, at least I am, and Roger obviously, too. (If you have ever looked into how many places claim to display Lincoln's bloodstains in various fabrics you may understand.) If it is considered authentic there should be a proof.

Rachel or Brian, could you please check out if you can find a rocker in the LHIO furniture list? Thanks!

Tadsecrete · (This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 02:22 PM by Tadsecrete.)

(07-05-2016 02:04 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Yes, at least I am, and Roger obviously, too. (If you have ever looked into how many places claim to display Lincoln's bloodstains in various fabrics you may understand.)

Apples and oranges! NOBODY besides the Lincoln museum claims to have a rocker with TAD carved into it.

Also, just sent of an email to the curator at Lincoln College, Anne Mosely, to ascertain the authenticity of the Tad rocker.

(07-05-2016 02:04 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Yes, at least I am, and Roger obviously, too. (If you have ever looked into how many places claim to display Lincoln's bloodstains in various fabrics you may understand.) If it is considered authentic there should be a proof.

Rachel or Brian, could you please check out if you can find a rocker in the LHIO furniture list? Thanks!

It's not in the LIHO report!

Eva Elisabeth · 07-05-2016, 02:25 PM

Thanks much for checking the list and emailing the museum (I was going to do the same)!

RJNorton · 07-05-2016, 04:11 PM

(07-05-2016 02:04 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Yes, at least I am, and Roger obviously, too.

True, Eva. I am skeptical at this point, but maybe the museum will supply proof. I did not think Tad knew his letters while still in Springfield, but maybe I am wrong.

I am not really concerned with the provenance of the rocker itself; my interest is in the evidence that Tad engraved his name on it. Why couldn’t Abraham, Robert or Willie (or someone else who was in possession of the rocker) have done the actual engraving?

"It has also been suggested that Tad had an aversion to formal schooling—one that was condoned by his father—and that it led to his delay in reading. However, his illiteracy was extensive for the entire period of the White House years. Elizabeth Keckley, who attended Mary Todd Lincoln in the White House, recounts the familiar story of Tad's inability to read the simple word ape, as late as age twelve. When shown a picture of an ape, Tad insisted it was a monkey and that the single-syllable, three-letter word a-p-e spelled monkey. His illiteracy is confirmed by Mary Todd Lincoln in a letter written from Chicago to Alexander Williamson, dated December 16, 1866. She wrote, "Taddie is well Can now read, quite well—as he did not know his letters when he came, here, you will agree he learns rapidly." It seems improbable that such a massive deficit characterized by simple failure to learn even the letters of the alphabet can be attributed solely to parental indulgence and childhood aversion to school. Tad did have formal schooling, not dissimilar to that of his older brother Willie, and one might assume that with even a limited attention span, he would have learned the alphabet and spelling of simple words."

SOURCE: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860...w=fulltext