Lloyd Ostendorf indicates the photo was taken in Chicago in 1866. Depending on when it was taken in 1866 Tad would have been 12 or 13. I do not know how tall he was.

While - I am sorry to say - I personally think it uttermost unlikely Tad scratched this, in the end height is unimportant considering whoever did this could simply have climbed on a chair.

   

(06-30-2016 07:11 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  While - I am sorry to say - I personally think it uttermost unlikely Tad scratched this, in the end height is unimportant considering whoever did this could simply have climbed on a chair.

I don't find it unlikely that he did it. I find it VERY unlikely that I'll be able to prove it. The hang up lies with the antique dealer in Canton, Ohio. I wonder how many children possessed the name TAD between 1840 and 1860. The appraiser stated that the the carvings were from the period due to the layers of stain and shellac. The evidence, thus far, DO point to our dear Tad. Don't forget about the war room table and maps and the rocker. How many parents would allow their child to carve (in plain view) onto an otherwise pristine piece of furniture. Pictures are difficult to judge because there is no reference. Would love to.put it on display. I am sure Tad saw Robert's handy work on furniture also. Robert was fined $2 at Harvard for writing on a fellow classmates furniture.

(06-30-2016 07:28 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote:  The evidence, thus far, DO point to our dear Tad.

What evidence, please? (This is a serious question!)
What about this having been the mark of a carpenter named Theodore Adam Davis? And I'd think there were quite some people nicknamed Tad (and his actual name was Thomas, not Tad).
BTW, now you seem to date the carving to sometime between 1840 - 1860, at least that's how I read your latest post.

One factor that makes me think of a trademark first is that the letters are in print. Even in my school days we only learned to write cursive.

When we examine old plaster, we can identify how many layers of paint have been applied over the years, what colors, etc. Even if they painted it each time in the same color, layers stand out because of dirt between them. Structural framing in old houses can determine the age through comparison of tree rings with virgin timber examples from various years/centuries.

I'm taking a stab in the dark here because the photos of the carving appear to have had stain and/or varnish applied over the stab wounds; but if I'm wrong, can you discern any similar "layers" of dirt and varnish that might indicate how long it took the carver to desecrate the piece after its manufacture?

I would agree with you that the chest of drawers itself dates to ca. 1840-60. The Lincolns were married in 1842, so let's theorize that it was purchased shortly after their marriage. Tad was not born until 1853, and the family moved to Washington City in February of 1861, before he turned 8. I don't think that even the permissive Abraham would have allowed his son the use of a knife at that age for that chore - even if he found out after-the-fact. Do the initials appear to have been done fairly recent to their leaving Springfield, or are there indications of years of polishing and varnishing?

As for the etchings on the back, I'm a non-believer.

Question 1 = we've been over this.

Question 2 = that's illogical. Now YOU are grasping at straws. WHAT furniture maker of ANYTIME in history, carved their name into the TOP of a piece of furniture.

Question 3 = had you read our entire article you would KNOW that the piece was made between 1840 and 1860. The appraiser says "the chest of drawers is notable for what appears to be a contemporaneous carving of the letters TAD. Furthermore James Cornelius noted the rarity of the name stating "How many Tad's do you know?'""

Statement 4 = try using a pen knife to carve cursive into wood.....I learned to print before I learned to write....never heard of starting out in cursive....

I agree a carpenter wouldn't have carved into the top. I apologize, in the very moment I had forgotten about the location. However, I don't think the name unique. It makes a catchy, short nickname for Thaddeus, and "Thomas Aloysius Dorgan (1877 – 1929), also known as Tad Dorgan, was an American cartoonist who signed his drawings as Tad" (Wiki). I don't mean he was it, just one other example for one (creative) Tad.

Here, print hadn't been taught at all until some years ago.

"Here, print hadn't been taught at all until some years ago." I found the following paragraph online as part of a very long article on why cursive should be taught first. Mainly, it does not require the fine motor skills that printing does and is, therefore, easier on young children.

Although most schools in English speaking countries begin by teaching printing, most other cultures begin with the cursive form. In many non-English speaking countries, popular children’s books are even printed in both print and cursive. Historically, handwriting instruction began with cursive in America and Britain as well; it is only in the last hundred years that we have begun to do otherwise.

At Dr. Hohagen's in Germany Tad was only taught German current:
   
My grandma was taught a successor of Kurrent, Sütterlin, used in the period 1911-1941 until the Nazi Party banned it:
   
Since kids have been taught "German standard handwriting":
   
(...but at least I have over time developed my own).
I wonder what the "official" American print handwriting as taught in schools looks like? And the cursive? And when you learn both which do people use more often?

The answer of how many use which style: The answer was in that same article. Even if they know both styles, the majority use printing. Let me try to find that link again.

https://www.logicofenglish.com/2-uncateg...sive-first Less than 5% use cursive. I'm one of the 5% and have won praise for my penmanship. My printing is clear and legible, but I am not comfortable in using it, even though I learned it first.

Origin[edit]
The origin of the cursive method is associated with practical advantages of writing speed and infrequent pen lifting to accommodate the limitations of the quill. Quills are fragile, easily broken, and will spatter unless used properly. Steel dip pens followed quills; they were sturdier, but still had some limitations. The individuality of the provenance of a document (see Signature) was a factor also, as opposed to machine font.[2]

The term cursive derives from the 18th century Italian corsivo from Medieval Latin cursivus, which literally means running. This term in turn derives from Latin currere ("to run, hasten").[3]

The above is from Wiki, and they also note that Lincoln drafted the Gettysburg Address in cursive that is very readable today.

And finally, this article fits my former years of teacher training just perfectly: http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/25/ten-...d-cursive/

Don't know about print, but cursive is something very personal, unique, it expresses the writer's personality IMO.

---

Thanks for all the info, Laurie - very interesting!

Does there exist an inventory of items that Mary took FROM the White House after the assassination? I know that she gave some items away to Ms. Keckley, etc.

Here's an interesting site on the Lincolns' furniture and it's whereabouts:
https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_b...iond-j.htm

Or, better known as the LIHO report. Mr. Cornelius lives and breath's it. If it ain't in the LIHO report, then it doesn't exist.

(07-04-2016 07:55 AM)Tadsecrete Wrote:  Does there exist an inventory of items that Mary took FROM the White House after the assassination? I know that she gave some items away to Ms. Keckley, etc.

Most likely you will know this, too, and find it not helpful either. However, from Elizabeth Keckley's "Behind the Scenes", pp.203-208:

"In packing, Mrs. Lincoln gave away everything intimately connected with the President, as she said that she could not bear to be reminded of the past. The articles were given to those who were regarded as the warmest of Mr. Lincoln's admirers. All of the presents passed through my hands. The dress that Mrs. Lincoln wore on the night of the assassination was given to Mrs. Slade, the wife of an old and faithful messenger. The cloak, stained with the President's blood, was given to me, as also was the bonnet worn on the same memorable night. Afterwards I received the comb and brush that Mr. Lincoln used during his residence at the White House....As may well be imagined, I was only too glad to accept this comb and brush from the hands of Mrs. Lincoln. The cloak, bonnet, comb, and brush, the glove worn at the first reception after the second inaugural, and Mr. Lincoln's over-shoes, also given to me, I have since donated for the benefit of Wilberforce University, a colored college near Xenia, Ohio, destroyed by fire on the night that the President was murdered.

There was much surmise, when Mrs. Lincoln left the White House, what her fifty or sixty boxes, not to count her score of trunks, could contain. Had the government not been so liberal in furnishing the boxes, it is possible that there would have been less demand for so much transportation. The boxes were loosely packed, and many of them with articles not worth carrying away. Mrs. Lincoln had a passion for hoarding old things, believing, with Toodles, that they were 'handy to have about the house.'

The bonnets that she brought with her from Springfield, in addition to every one purchased during her residence in Washington, were packed in the boxes, and transported to Chicago. She remarked that she might find use for the material some day, and it was prudent to look to the future. I am sorry to say that Mrs. Lincoln's foresight in regard to the future was only confined to cast-off clothing, as she owed, at the time of the President's death, different store bills amounting to seventy thousand dollars....

The children, as well as herself, had received a vast number of presents during Mr. Lincoln's administration, and these presents constituted a large item in the contents of the boxes. The only article of furniture, so far as I know, taken away from the White House by Mrs. Lincoln, was a little dressing-stand used by the President. I recollect hearing him say one day:

'Mother, this little stand is so handy, and suits me so well, that I do not know how I shall get along without it when we move away from here.' He was standing before a mirror, brushing his hair, when he made the remark. 'Well, father,' Mrs. Lincoln replied, 'if you like the stand so well, we will take it with us when we go away.' 'Not for the world,' he exclaimed; but she interrupted him: 'I should like to know what difference it makes if we put a better one in its place.' 'That alters the question. If you will put a stand in its place worth twice as much as this one, and the Commissioner consents, then I have no objection.'

Mrs. Lincoln remembered these words, and, with the consent of the Commissioner, took the stand to Chicago with her for the benefit of little Tad...

It is charged that a great deal of furniture was lost from the White House during Mr. Lincoln's occupation of it. Very true, and it can be accounted for in this way: In some respects, to put the case very plainly, Mrs. Lincoln was 'penny wise and pound foolish.' When she moved into the White House, she discharged the Steward, whose business it was to look after the affairs of the household. When the Steward was dismissed, there was no one to superintend affairs, and the servants carried away many pieces of furniture. In this manner the furniture rapidly disappeared.

Robert was frequently in the room where the boxes were being packed, and he tried without avail to influence his mother to set fire to her vast stores of old goods. 'What are you going to do with that old dress, mother?' he would ask. 'Never mind, Robert, I will find use for it. You do not understand this business.' 'And what is more, I hope I never may understand it. I wish to heaven the car would take fire in which you place these boxes for transportation to Chicago, and burn all of your old plunder up;' and then, with an impatient gesture, he would turn on his heel and leave the room...

Many of the articles that Mrs. Lincoln took away from the White House were given, after her arrival in Chicago, for the benefit of charity fairs."
http://docsouth.unc.edu/neh/keckley/keckley.html

(If you read on you will find that Tad in the Chicago beginnings wasn't able to spell.)