RTL's birth

[Gene C]

We all have enough imperfections and mistakes we have made that are "real", without someone speculating and guessing so they can add more to that list. That is also true for the Lincolns.

It bothers me when someone tries to build up their own reputation at the expense of others by speculation and unfounded rumors. "Look at me, and look at the dirt I uncovered". It's wrong!

Like you said, it's ok to discuss the "either/or" of an issue. It's not ok to present it in such a way as to harm someone's reputation.

Question for thought:
If you have built Lincoln up, and I believe he is a greater man than he was, what is the harm?
If you have denegrated him, and I believe he was less of a man than he was, then have you done an injustice (to him and me)?

[Laurie Verge]

Question about the "Love is Eternal" inscription on the ring: I assume that ring was put on Mary's finger at the wedding. Had it already been bought and inscribed ahead of time? I would assume so. To me, that would indicate that Abe had deep feelings for Mary. Most men just inscribe their intials and "to..." inside the ring. I have about four generations of wedding rings dating to the early 1800s in our family, and all are inscribed with initials only.

In 1842, it would seem to me that it would take awhile to purchase the ring and have it inscribed. One just didn't run down to the local mall, purchase it, and have it inscribed while you wait. There had to be some pre-planning and intentions to wed at some point.

Finally, I am certainly no prude, but I just cannot envision Abe and Mary as two "frisky" young people engaged in pre-marital sex! As for their married life together, she may have been a shrew, but Abe liked her enough to have four children by her over at least a decade...

[Linda Anderson]

Gene, while I am well aware of the harm that "speculation and unfounded rumors" can do to a person's life, I don't look at questioning whether Lincoln and Mary had a shotgun wedding as denigrating either one of them at all, maybe because they lived so long ago and it might help explain why Lincoln married Mary.

Have you read An Untold Story: The Roosevelts of Hyde Park by Eleanor and Franklin's son Elliott Roosevelt and James Brough? Elliott is very frank about the difficulties in his parents' marriage. Can you imagine Robert Lincoln writing such a book about his parents' marriage? Do you think a book like Elliott's shouldn't have been written or that the invasion of privacy is worth it because it gives greater insight into Eleanor and Franklin's lives?

[RJNorton]

Laurie, the full inscription read: "A.L. to Mary, Nov. 4, 1842. Love is Eternal."

It had previously been purchased from Chatterton's jewelry shop located on the west side of the square in Springfield. But I have never found the exact date it was purchased.

From what I have read the ring was in best man James Matheny's pocket, and he produced it when Reverend Dresser called for Lincoln to "put it upon the fourth finger of the woman's left hand." Shortly after this, Judge Browne had his outburst which we have discussed previously. Apparently few people, including Reverend Dresser, could keep from laughing, and it took a moment for Reverend Dresser to collect himself before finishing the ceremony.

[Jim Garrett]

I put the question out there, which some might think is the elephant in the room. Sometimes to not ask the question is not wanting an answer or an opinion from others that might be better informed than oneself. I would say that if it were the case of "friskiness", AL certainly did do the honorable thing, versus waiting a month or two to make a decision. It could also explain much about their relationship. Mary Todd was of high social status, whereas Abraham Lincoln was of the most plain (at best) of stock. I think considering their on again/ off again relationship is a valid inquiry.

I think a response like Lauries is most valid. I think ignoring the question and suggesting the question is being asked for salaciousness begs back to issues addressed in Bill Richter's valuable work, "Sic Semper Tyrannis" regarding the deification of a man, very mortal.

[Laurie Verge]

I doubt seriously that Robert Lincoln (or any of their sons, had they lived) would have discussed private family matters. Victorians may have gossiped behind closed doors, but they certainly shied away from airing dirty laundry in public. I also think that Herndon overstepped Victorian limits and had a personal vendetta against Mrs. Lincoln.

As for the Roosevelts, 75 years' difference in time periods and changing culture means a lot as to what is acceptable to talk about and speculate on. The Roosevelts also led a much more public life than did the Lincolns - thanks to mass media and other factors. I wonder if Elliott's memories were deliberately published in order to admit the situations and set clear what was fact and what was fiction in his parents' relationship?

While we all love to speculate on scandals, I would suggest that we stop and ask, "What difference does it make?" If the Lincolns "had to get married," did that change the course of American history? In 1842, did anyone even suspect that Abraham Lincoln would become President and an American icon?

We probably wouldn't care about the Roosevelts either if the mass media had not stuck their noses in. Their marriage may not have been ideal, but both of the Roosevelts left lasting legacies in America - as did the Lincolns. That's what is important - not their sex life!

End of sermon...

[Linda Anderson]

It would be interesting to speculate how Lincoln would have lived his life if he had not married Mary.

As for the Roosevelts, Franklin's affair with Lucy Mercer and Eleanor's discovery of their love letters changed their lives forever. They stayed together for Franklin's political career and because Franklin's very wealthy mother threatened to take away her financial support. Doris Kearns Goodwin in No Ordinary Time writes that Joe Alsop observed "that Roosevelt's disappointment in this great love helped to banish the superficial aspects of his personality, 'he emerged tougher and more resilient, wiser and more profound even before his struggle with polio.'

"Though the discovery of the affair had liberating dimensions for Eleanor, leading her to forge a new sense of herself in the world, the hurt would endure forever, finding expressions in sudden flashes of anger, unpredictable changes of mood, immobilizing depressions."

[Gene C]

When I used the term "frisky" I didn't mean pre-marital sex. I did mean physically attracted to each other. Sorry about miss comunication on my part

A very interesting conversation. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my strong personal feelings. We can disagree without being disagreeable, and I hope I wasn't too disagreeable.

I do think we can learn about how strong their committment was to each other, especially since they did not have what we would consider an ideal marriage. They both had their shortcomings and faults, but it seems that they were deeply in love with each other. He still was holding her hand in an affectionate way at Ford's Theater, and her life fell apart with grief when he was killed. There are a lot of positive things we can learn from them about marriage and commitment.

[Jim Garrett]

There absoluteley is a lot to learn from AL and MTD. Were they the first real power couple in Washington? Mary was so far ahead of her time. Smart, educated and opinionated, she ruffled feathers, but loyal and always working her best for her husband's agenda.