Lincoln Kidnap Tries

[Gene C]

There is a Georgetown University Press.
They do publish some books on history.
It might be worth contacting them, if you could find some one willing to go through and edit the papers.

[L Verge]

Maj. Joseph Walker Taylor is one of the very obscure persons in the story of alleged kidnap plots. I first learned of him from Come Retribution, and then Ed Steers gave a longer entry to him in Blood on the Moon. Both sources, however, had only one citation to go by - a published account in the April 1903 issue of Confederate Veteran.

The section that you cite is from Steers's book, I believe. I turned to Come Retribution and found that the authors "read between the lines" of that 1903 article and state that they "surmise" that Davis did not object to the kidnap, but rather to the fear that Lincoln would be injured or killed and cause further damage with public opinion in the North and in foreign countries.

Pages 233-239 of Come Retribution are a good read in order to see that the kidnap plots were coming from all sides, including Marylander Bradley Johnson as of June in 1864. That one is outlined in Goldsborough's The Maryland Line in the Confederate Army as well as in an article written by Johnson himself. A lieutenant from the 1st Maryland Calvary confirmed the account before a congressional committee as late as 1877.

Question for anyone: What are your thoughts on Confederate Secretary of War James Seddon? Wasn't he the one who sanctioned Thomas Hines to try and stir up the Copperheads? Could he have been behind any plots?

[Rick Smith]

(08-04-2015 10:36 AM)Gene C Wrote:  There is a Georgetown University Press.
They do publish some books on history.
It might be worth contacting them, if you could find some one willing to go through and edit the papers.

I seriously doubt if Mr. Sheetz would or could allow an outside editor. They would probably do that with Lauinger Library staff, if they ever would do it. This would probably be all done in house, which is what Mr. Sheetz meant when he told Laurie that the funds were not available. Barbee's papers are archived in the Special Collections section of the Louinger, may be viewed and notes taken, but not photo copied or scanned.

[L Verge]

A number of years ago, I asked Nicholas if Surratt House could pay to have the Barbee Papers copied for our research center. He told me then that they were getting quite fragile and also that a small staff was already pushed to the limit.

[Rick Smith]

(08-04-2015 01:15 PM)Rick Smith Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 10:36 AM)Gene C Wrote:  There is a Georgetown University Press.
They do publish some books on history.
It might be worth contacting them, if you could find some one willing to go through and edit the papers.

I seriously doubt if Mr. Sheetz would or could allow an outside editor. They would probably do that with Lauinger Library staff, if they ever would do it. This would probably be all done in house, which is what Mr. Sheetz meant when he told Laurie that the funds were not available. Barbee's papers are archived in the Special Collections section of the Louinger, may be viewed and notes taken, but not photo copied or scanned.

Gene,

I believe that either Laurie & Bill mentioned another roadblock to the Barbee papers being published, probably more of an impediment than funding; that his daughter would not allow it. I guess she has her reasons, but hat really is unfortunate.

Rick

[John Fazio]

(08-04-2015 10:36 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Maj. Joseph Walker Taylor is one of the very obscure persons in the story of alleged kidnap plots. I first learned of him from Come Retribution, and then Ed Steers gave a longer entry to him in Blood on the Moon. Both sources, however, had only one citation to go by - a published account in the April 1903 issue of Confederate Veteran.

The section that you cite is from Steers's book, I believe. I turned to Come Retribution and found that the authors "read between the lines" of that 1903 article and state that they "surmise" that Davis did not object to the kidnap, but rather to the fear that Lincoln would be injured or killed and cause further damage with public opinion in the North and in foreign countries.

Pages 233-239 of Come Retribution are a good read in order to see that the kidnap plots were coming from all sides, including Marylander Bradley Johnson as of June in 1864. That one is outlined in Goldsborough's The Maryland Line in the Confederate Army as well as in an article written by Johnson himself. A lieutenant from the 1st Maryland Calvary confirmed the account before a congressional committee as late as 1877.

Question for anyone: What are your thoughts on Confederate Secretary of War James Seddon? Wasn't he the one who sanctioned Thomas Hines to try and stir up the Copperheads? Could he have been behind any plots?

Laurie:

My feeling is that Seddon could not have been left out of major decision making after Wistar-Dahlgren-Kilpatrick and before his replacement by Breckenridge on Feb. 5, 1865. After that date, the opposite is probably true. Yes, my understanding is that he played a role in the Northwest Confederacy conspiracy, headed by Hines, Castleman and Sanders, as well as other acts of terror during 1864 and that he hand in kidnapping plots, which may have been assassination plots in disguise. There is also a reference of threats of assassination of Lincoln being referred to him by Davis.

John

[L Verge]

Another thing that we agree on, John. With so many plots, it seems to me that there were multiple puppet masters at the top.

I also wonder why more consideration isn't given to the various Copperhead/Peace Democrats' activities in the realm of treason and assassination. Is it because no one ever pinned the dreadful word "Confederate" on them?

[John Fazio]

(08-04-2015 06:37 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Another thing that we agree on, John. With so many plots, it seems to me that there were multiple puppet masters at the top.

I also wonder why more consideration isn't given to the various Copperhead/Peace Democrats' activities in the realm of treason and assassination. Is it because no one ever pinned the dreadful word "Confederate" on them?

Laurie:

I don't think that is the reason. I think it is more likely because good evidence of their complicity is hard to come by. We have all read the Guttridge, Neff and Higham stuff and have been unimpressed. I believe a really definitive work on Copperhead and Peace Democrat complicity has yet to be written. If it has been written, I haven't read it. I will therefore be grateful if someone will point me in the right direction.

John

---

(08-04-2015 08:54 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:03 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Back to the timing.....Correct that armies waited until spring for many reasons. Winter is a terrible time to mount an offensive. Napoleon and Gen. Ambrose Burnside both found that out. Thousand of troops and the wagons and other wheeled vehicles to support them would turn the roadways with even the slightest moisture into mires. However a single wagon/buggy with a few outriders is a much different story. They could probably outpace any large pursuit with no problem.

I agree, Jim. I also believe the fact that armies seriously curtailed activities and "rested" during the winter months would make it easier to carry out the plan. It would take longer to marshal the forces to respond and begin pursuit???

---

(08-04-2015 08:34 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Wild Bill, et al:

Some good points are made by all, but IMO Gene is closer to the truth than anyone else. Yes, I have a problem with what they would have done with Lincoln. So did Davis, when he said to Maj. Joseph Walker Taylor: "I cannot give my authority, Walker...what value would he be to us as a prisoner?...If he were brought to Richmond, what could I do with him? He would have to be treated like the Magistrate of the North, and we have neither the time nor the provision." Conrad also had a problem with it. He said that "even a child" would know that a kidnapped Lincoln could do the Confederacy no good at all. Furthermore, for what reason would they have held him hostage? Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and was exchanging about 3,000 a week. Booth's refusal to take account of that fact, when Arnold made it clear to him, was reason enough for Arnold to say that Booth was a maniac. Actually, it revealed a deeper truth, namely that Booth had no intention of kidnapping anyone, which is why he would persist in his scheming even though the alleged rationale for it had disappeared.

No, I have not read Barbee's manuscript, but I will be happy to. Please let me know where I may obtain the same.

John

John - You have just answered a question that I have had for a long time: Did Grant speed up the prisoner exchange once it was open again? I do not know the combined total of Confederate POWS. Approximately how long would it have taken at the rate of 3000/week to close down the camps? Did the North intend to fully close every camp with the war still on? Or, just reduce the amount that had to be fed?

Barbee's manuscript is in Georgetown University's Lauinger Library. While Mr. Hall did not agree with many of his points, he was quite impressed with that mss. and tried unsuccessfully to convince Barbee's daughter to publish it posthumously. No dice. I also mentioned it to Nicholas Sheetz, former librarian there, about 20 years ago. I got the answer I was expecting, "lack of funds."

Laurie:

I will have to check some sources re prisoner exchange. I will get back to you on this.

John

[Jim Woodall]

(08-04-2015 07:51 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 06:42 AM)Jim Woodall Wrote:  So, when did Booth get rid of the wagon?

Was this the buggy Spangler referred to in the statement found in his tool chest at Mudd's? Or did Booth have another? Spangler wrote:

Yes, that was what I meant. Thank you.

The same buggy that was not available later to take Mrs. Surratt to the tavern.

---

(08-04-2015 07:03 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Back to the timing.....Correct that armies waited until spring for many reasons. Winter is a terrible time to mount an offensive. Napoleon and Gen. Ambrose Burnside both found that out. Thousand of troops and the wagons and other wheeled vehicles to support them would turn the roadways with even the slightest moisture into mires. However a single wagon/buggy with a few outriders is a much different story. They could probably outpace any large pursuit with no problem.

Even a single wagon/buggy would have problems on Good Hope Hill. My 3rd great grandfather, Thomas Anderson, spent many a night rescuing those stranded in the mud of Good Hope Hill.

From the Rambler column of the Evening Star on 12 Apr 1925 pg 65 in a letter reply to the Rambler from my 2nd great grandmother, Clementine Hutton White nee Anderson:

"... He was there in that spot first, and a monument should be erected in his memory for his wonderful kind acts of being pulled out of bed any hour of the night to help get a neighbor up that terrible, winding Good Hope hill. Mud sometimes up to the hub of the wheels, horses down, and to hear their cry in the dead hour of the night was more than dear old Tom Anderson could stand. He would get his boys up, hook up his own horses down in the dark, he would get them all up to the top of that awful hill, not one word spoken about how much are you going to charge? His motto was: 'Do it, and do it quick!' and quick it was done."

Tom Anderson 1810-1887
Clementine Anderson 1853-1938
Clementine married Hutton and moved out of the family house in 1871. She would marry White later.

So, it wasn't a given that when the roads were wet and muddy, that a wagon would pass with ease nor possibly a rider.

Planning an escape on that route, up Good Hope hill, during the rainy season would be adding further risk to the operation.

[BettyO]

Quote:It is a shame that Barbee's papers have not been published.

I agree! I've been into the Barbee papers a couple of times and they are facinating!

[John Fazio]

[i][i][i]

(08-04-2015 08:54 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:03 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Back to the timing.....Correct that armies waited until spring for many reasons. Winter is a terrible time to mount an offensive. Napoleon and Gen. Ambrose Burnside both found that out. Thousand of troops and the wagons and other wheeled vehicles to support them would turn the roadways with even the slightest moisture into mires. However a single wagon/buggy with a few outriders is a much different story. They could probably outpace any large pursuit with no problem.

I agree, Jim. I also believe the fact that armies seriously curtailed activities and "rested" during the winter months would make it easier to carry out the plan. It would take longer to marshal the forces to respond and begin pursuit???

---

(08-04-2015 08:34 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Wild Bill, et al:

Some good points are made by all, but IMO Gene is closer to the truth than anyone else. Yes, I have a problem with what they would have done with Lincoln. So did Davis, when he said to Maj. Joseph Walker Taylor: "I cannot give my authority, Walker...what value would he be to us as a prisoner?...If he were brought to Richmond, what could I do with him? He would have to be treated like the Magistrate of the North, and we have neither the time nor the provision." Conrad also had a problem with it. He said that "even a child" would know that a kidnapped Lincoln could do the Confederacy no good at all. Furthermore, for what reason would they have held him hostage? Grant had resumed prisoner exchange in January and was exchanging about 3,000 a week. Booth's refusal to take account of that fact, when Arnold made it clear to him, was reason enough for Arnold to say that Booth was a maniac. Actually, it revealed a deeper truth, namely that Booth had no intention of kidnapping anyone, which is why he would persist in his scheming even though the alleged rationale for it had disappeared.

No, I have not read Barbee's manuscript, but I will be happy to. Please let me know where I may obtain the same.

John

John - You have just answered a question that I have had for a long time: Did Grant speed up the prisoner exchange once it was open again? I do not know the combined total of Confederate POWS. Approximately how long would it have taken at the rate of 3000/week to close down the camps? Did the North intend to fully close every camp with the war still on? Or, just reduce the amount that had to be fed?

Barbee's manuscript is in Georgetown University's Lauinger Library. While Mr. Hall did not agree with many of his points, he was quite impressed with that mss. and tried unsuccessfully to convince Barbee's daughter to publish it posthumously. No dice. I also mentioned it to Nicholas Sheetz, former librarian there, about 20 years ago. I got the answer I was expecting, "lack of funds."

Laurie:

Here are a few things on prisoner exchange:

1. In a publication titled Friend's Review: A Religious Literary and Miscellaneous Journal, Vol. 18, it says, on p. 400: "Gen. Grant stated, a few days since, in his testimony before the Congressional Committee on the Conduct of the War, that the exchange of prisoners had been placed entirely in his hands, and that he had effected an arrangement for such exchange, man for man and officer for officer, or his equivalent, according to the former cartels, until the number held by one or the other party is exhausted; and he expected exchanges to be made at the rate of 3,000 poer week.
2. In January, 1865, General Grant permitted the resumption of exchanges when Confederate authorities agreed to allow all prisoners to be included. Grant wrote Stanton that he was trying to exchange 3,000 men a week and preference should go to disabled troops, "few of these will be got in the ranks again and as we can count upon but little reinforcement from the prisoners we get." Further, in his militaty history, "The Longest Night", historian David J. Eicher states that the "Union Army paroled or exchanged about 329,963 Confederate prisoners of war, while the Confederacy paroled or exchanged about 152,015 Union prisoners of war. (The Prisoner of War Parole and Exchange System--Online)
3. See also letter of Lt. Gen. Grant to Maj. Gen. Halleck; Official Records, Ser. II, Vol. VIII, p. 63, and letter of Lt. Gen. Grant to Sec. of War Stanton; Official Records, Ser. II, Vol. VIII, p. 170
4. See also Arnold's Memoirs, pp. 26, 47, 149 and Kauffman, American Brutus, p. 181.


John

[L Verge]

(08-05-2015 04:57 AM)Jim Woodall Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 07:51 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(08-04-2015 06:42 AM)Jim Woodall Wrote:  So, when did Booth get rid of the wagon?

Was this the buggy Spangler referred to in the statement found in his tool chest at Mudd's? Or did Booth have another? Spangler wrote:

Yes, that was what I meant. Thank you.

The same buggy that was not available later to take Mrs. Surratt to the tavern.

---

(08-04-2015 07:03 AM)Jim Garrett Wrote:  Back to the timing.....Correct that armies waited until spring for many reasons. Winter is a terrible time to mount an offensive. Napoleon and Gen. Ambrose Burnside both found that out. Thousand of troops and the wagons and other wheeled vehicles to support them would turn the roadways with even the slightest moisture into mires. However a single wagon/buggy with a few outriders is a much different story. They could probably outpace any large pursuit with no problem.

Even a single wagon/buggy would have problems on Good Hope Hill. My 3rd great grandfather, Thomas Anderson, spent many a night rescuing those stranded in the mud of Good Hope Hill.

From the Rambler column of the Evening Star on 12 Apr 1925 pg 65 in a letter reply to the Rambler from my 2nd great grandmother, Clementine Hutton White nee Anderson:

"... He was there in that spot first, and a monument should be erected in his memory for his wonderful kind acts of being pulled out of bed any hour of the night to help get a neighbor up that terrible, winding Good Hope hill. Mud sometimes up to the hub of the wheels, horses down, and to hear their cry in the dead hour of the night was more than dear old Tom Anderson could stand. He would get his boys up, hook up his own horses down in the dark, he would get them all up to the top of that awful hill, not one word spoken about how much are you going to charge? His motto was: 'Do it, and do it quick!' and quick it was done."

Tom Anderson 1810-1887
Clementine Anderson 1853-1938
Clementine married Hutton and moved out of the family house in 1871. She would marry White later.

So, it wasn't a given that when the roads were wet and muddy, that a wagon would pass with ease nor possibly a rider.

Planning an escape on that route, up Good Hope hill, during the rainy season would be adding further risk to the operation.

And Good Hope Hill was just one of the hills to get over en route to Charles County. I believe there were once five hills in Prince George's County between the DC line and the Charles County line. Soper's Hill was one, then Middleton's Hill (I think), two I can't remember the names of, and finally Burch's Hill.

Burch's Hill is still there and used to be a challenge to get up in the old days of stick-shifts - even without snow on the ground. Plus you have to pass over a creek and marshland before you start up the hill. It's bridged and paved now, but not in Booth's time.

I have always wanted to incorporate terrain into our escape route bus tours in order to show people the obstacles that the fugitives and the troops encountered in 1865. The only place this is mentioned is Zekiah Swamp.

---

Thanks for the facts and figures, John. I don't recall ever reading specifics overall. Several years ago, I wrote a booklet to go with our special exhibit, Between the Lines, which focused on the Union "occupation" of Southern Maryland. One of the topics was on Point Lookout in Maryland.

That POW camp for Confederate prisoners was created shortly after the Battle of Gettysburg -- forty acres in the middle of the most pro-Confederate area in Maryland and then a regiment of USCT was sent in February of 1864, along with an ironclad offshore to assist the guards. By the end of 1863, the prisoner count was at 9000; in six months, it grew to 15,500. At the end of the war, there were still 22,000 being held there in a space designed for 10,000. Over 3500 died from diseases ranging from dysentery, typhoid, and yellow fever.

By June 30, 1865, all prisoners had been transferred out. I found the system of transfer interesting -- alphabetical order, but in reverse order of states that seceded from the Union at the beginning of the war. If you were Cpl. Zinger from South Carolina, you were out of luck!

Most of the prison camp is now under water, but there is a large monument remembering the men who died there (which recently came under protest during the "late unpleasantness" of the past few months) and a small museum that shares space with a nature center. There is also a support group of descendants of those imprisoned there. I had a great-uncle who survived Point Lookout. I have mentioned him on this forum before.

There is an excellent, but fairly rare, book entitled Point Lookout Prison for Confederates written by Edwin W. Beitzell. It contains some great drawings and cartoons done by some of the prisoners there. Mention was made previously of Gen. Bradley Johnson's plans to kidnap Lincoln in the summer of 1864 as part of Jubal Early's run on D.C. Freeing the prisoners at Point Lookout (a good 50 miles away) was also talked about as part of that invasion.

[Jim Garrett]

Regarding how to get an abducted President out of the most heavily defended city in the world in 1865, well I think a pistol to the head of the President with the warning, "Anyone move and the President is a dead man!" might facilitate escape.