Lincoln's autocrat

[Gene C]

(01-10-2017 11:42 AM)richard petersen Wrote:  Thanks for the review Mr. Rose. Last evening on c-span William Marvel was on discussing his book. It was a speech he gave in Petersburg VA on 10/15/16. About the only positive point he made about Stanton was "he might have been good to his mother".

It sounded when it came to politics Stanton was very two faced.

Here is a short clip regarding what Richard posted above
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72rxoZsV...351DA37ADA
It's only a short clip, so far I am unable to get the entire C-Span speech to load

I've read Benjamin Thomas's book on Stanton, and he seems to take a much more favorable view of Stanton than Mr. Marvel.
The short clip above, and some of the comments regarding Marvel's book on Stanton (and I haven't read the book) has given me the impression that Marvel has a chip on his shoulder regarding Stanton and is not very objective.

A new book on Stanton by Walter Stahr will be out later this year. I am looking forward to see how it compares.
https://www.amazon.com/Stanton-Lincolns-...lter+stahr

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[Gene C]

I'm curious for those of you who have this book, does Marvel record this incident and what does he have to say about it?

From a post in Trivia Questions - "Who is this Lady" - post #262, by Roger Norton.
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussio...l#pid63374
"This was Edwin Stanton's first wife. Regarding her death, author Burton Hendrick writes, "When Mary Lamson died, in 1844, Stanton's morbidity again aroused fears for his sanity. This was the wife with whom he had spent his early days of struggle; that the end should have come when prosperity had arrived, when Stanton had just crowned his success by taking for his home the finest house in Steubenville, seemed to make the tragedy complete. The bereaved husband sent for a dressmaker and ordered her to produce a perfect duplicate of Mary's wedding gown. "She is my bride," he moaned, "and shall be dressed and buried like a bride." The Supreme Court had to suspend sessions for a month, for Stanton, whose name appeared on every calendar, would not leave his dead wife's grave. Every night he would put her nightcap and gown on her bed, and sit beside them weeping for hours."

[RJNorton]

(06-29-2015 06:20 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  I also know that Walter Stahr (who wrote the recent biography of Seward) is working on a biography of Stanton. I have met and corresponded with Walter a couple of times. He hopes to have his biography of Stanton completed for a Christmas 2016 publication date. I will wait for that one. Perhaps I will go back and read Mr. Marvel's offering afterward to compare and contrast.

Walter Stahr's biography of Stanton is now available.

https://www.amazon.com/Stanton-Lincolns-...bc?ie=UTF8

[L Verge]

(08-08-2017 09:38 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(06-29-2015 06:20 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote:  I also know that Walter Stahr (who wrote the recent biography of Seward) is working on a biography of Stanton. I have met and corresponded with Walter a couple of times. He hopes to have his biography of Stanton completed for a Christmas 2016 publication date. I will wait for that one. Perhaps I will go back and read Mr. Marvel's offering afterward to compare and contrast.

Walter Stahr's biography of Stanton is now available.

https://www.amazon.com/Stanton-Lincolns-...bc?ie=UTF8

And, if you have not yet read William Marvel's bio on Stanton, we have a few left in stock at Surratt House for just $10 plus $3 p/h...

[kerry]

I read it and thought it jumped to too many negative conclusions about Stanton's motivations, but there were so many people who didn't like Stanton that it's easy to put together a negative picture going through the recollections. And so many of the events were so complicated that they can be spun in different ways. He was certainly an interesting person. I recently did a bunch of newspaper research about the assassination, and no one mentions Stanton saying Lincoln belonged to the ages. There are some very detailed accounts, and they all say there was silence and then Gurley was asked to say a prayer by Stanton and was barely able to do so. That definitely seems like an embellishment added later. The first mention I see of it is in Hay and Nicolay's biography, in 1890.

[RJNorton]

(11-04-2017 11:24 AM)kerry Wrote:  I recently did a bunch of newspaper research about the assassination, and no one mentions Stanton saying Lincoln belonged to the ages. There are some very detailed accounts, and they all say there was silence and then Gurley was asked to say a prayer by Stanton and was barely able to do so. That definitely seems like an embellishment added later. The first mention I see of it is in Hay and Nicolay's biography, in 1890.

Several years ago we had an extensive discussion of this issue here.

[kerry]

(11-04-2017 11:39 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:24 AM)kerry Wrote:  I recently did a bunch of newspaper research about the assassination, and no one mentions Stanton saying Lincoln belonged to the ages. There are some very detailed accounts, and they all say there was silence and then Gurley was asked to say a prayer by Stanton and was barely able to do so. That definitely seems like an embellishment added later. The first mention I see of it is in Hay and Nicolay's biography, in 1890.

Several years ago we had an extensive discussion of this issue here.

Thanks, I just read it. My own belief is that neither was said. O'Beirne gives a graphic description of Mary in a book that I think is called Generals in Bronze, so it seems he was there, but maybe only for a few minutes. It is possible that the people there at the time of the actual death talked less and therefore Stanton's phrase didn't get into print.

The supposed photograph of the deathbed is not available anymore in that thread - I saw a few articles that mentioned its existence, and that Mary had given it to the Gurley family. Is it available anywhere?

[Steve]

(11-04-2017 12:15 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:39 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:24 AM)kerry Wrote:  I recently did a bunch of newspaper research about the assassination, and no one mentions Stanton saying Lincoln belonged to the ages. There are some very detailed accounts, and they all say there was silence and then Gurley was asked to say a prayer by Stanton and was barely able to do so. That definitely seems like an embellishment added later. The first mention I see of it is in Hay and Nicolay's biography, in 1890.

Several years ago we had an extensive discussion of this issue here.

Thanks, I just read it. My own belief is that neither was said. O'Beirne gives a graphic description of Mary in a book that I think is called Generals in Bronze, so it seems he was there, but maybe only for a few minutes. It is possible that the people there at the time of the actual death talked less and therefore Stanton's phrase didn't get into print.

The supposed photograph of the deathbed is not available anymore in that thread - I saw a few articles that mentioned its existence, and that Mary had given it to the Gurley family. Is it available anywhere?

Does anybody know when the very first account of Stanton saying the quote was first written down? (For this question, it doesn't matter if it says "ages" or "angels", I just would like an idea of how long it was between the death and when the quote was written down.)

[kerry]

(11-04-2017 05:41 PM)Steve Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 12:15 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:39 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 11:24 AM)kerry Wrote:  I recently did a bunch of newspaper research about the assassination, and no one mentions Stanton saying Lincoln belonged to the ages. There are some very detailed accounts, and they all say there was silence and then Gurley was asked to say a prayer by Stanton and was barely able to do so. That definitely seems like an embellishment added later. The first mention I see of it is in Hay and Nicolay's biography, in 1890.

Several years ago we had an extensive discussion of this issue here.

Thanks, I just read it. My own belief is that neither was said. O'Beirne gives a graphic description of Mary in a book that I think is called Generals in Bronze, so it seems he was there, but maybe only for a few minutes. It is possible that the people there at the time of the actual death talked less and therefore Stanton's phrase didn't get into print.

The supposed photograph of the deathbed is not available anymore in that thread - I saw a few articles that mentioned its existence, and that Mary had given it to the Gurley family. Is it available anywhere?

Does anybody know when the very first account of Stanton saying the quote was first written down? (For this question, it doesn't matter if it says "ages" or "angels", I just would like an idea of how long it was between the death and when the quote was written down.)

A newspapers.com and genealogybank.com search shows the first mention in 1890, in an excerpt from Nicolay and Hay's book. I saw a website referencing the stenographer Tanner's account as the first, saying "He belongs to the angels/ages now." But Tanner gave that account in 1905, I think, and he admitted his pencil broke and he was unable to record Gurley's prayer or the aftermath. According to him, Stanton sobbed through the prayer, and then said it when Gurley was done.

“As ‘Thy will be done, Amen’ in subdued and tremulous tones floated through the little chamber,” Tanner later wrote, “Mr. Stanton raised his head, the tears streaming down his face. A more agonized expression I never saw on a human countenance as he sobbed out the words: ‘He belongs to the angels now.’ ”

[Steve]

(11-04-2017 06:11 PM)kerry Wrote:  A newspapers.com and genealogybank.com search shows the first mention in 1890, in an excerpt from Nicolay and Hay's book. I saw a website referencing the stenographer Tanner's account as the first, saying "He belongs to the angels/ages now." But Tanner gave that account in 1905, I think, and he admitted his pencil broke and he was unable to record Gurley's prayer or the aftermath. According to him, Stanton sobbed through the prayer, and then said it when Gurley was done.

“As ‘Thy will be done, Amen’ in subdued and tremulous tones floated through the little chamber,” Tanner later wrote, “Mr. Stanton raised his head, the tears streaming down his face. A more agonized expression I never saw on a human countenance as he sobbed out the words: ‘He belongs to the angels now.’ ”

I hadn't realized that the quote, in either form, first appeared that late. If Tanner gave that quote in 1905, it could be a faulty memory based on hearing the "ages" form of the quote anytime within the previous 15 years.

[kerry]

(11-04-2017 06:41 PM)Steve Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 06:11 PM)kerry Wrote:  A newspapers.com and genealogybank.com search shows the first mention in 1890, in an excerpt from Nicolay and Hay's book. I saw a website referencing the stenographer Tanner's account as the first, saying "He belongs to the angels/ages now." But Tanner gave that account in 1905, I think, and he admitted his pencil broke and he was unable to record Gurley's prayer or the aftermath. According to him, Stanton sobbed through the prayer, and then said it when Gurley was done.

“As ‘Thy will be done, Amen’ in subdued and tremulous tones floated through the little chamber,” Tanner later wrote, “Mr. Stanton raised his head, the tears streaming down his face. A more agonized expression I never saw on a human countenance as he sobbed out the words: ‘He belongs to the angels now.’ ”

I hadn't realized that the quote, in either form, first appeared that late. If Tanner gave that quote in 1905, it could be a faulty memory based on hearing the "ages" form of the quote anytime within the previous 15 years.

Yeah, and Tanner's whole account is dramatic and fits certain narratives, so I tend to think he just incorporated what he heard. It's certainly understandable if that did happen over all those years. It's possible Hay heard Stanton make this remark at another point and included it as a fitting embellishment.

As an aside, Tanner is quite struck by the agony of Stanton - he made a similar comment about Mary Lincoln. This man served in the war and lost his legs! He certainly knew agony, but I guess it paled in comparison.

[RJNorton]

(11-04-2017 12:15 PM)kerry Wrote:  The supposed photograph of the deathbed is not available anymore in that thread - I saw a few articles that mentioned its existence, and that Mary had given it to the Gurley family. Is it available anywhere?

Kerry, my mind is a total blank on which photo you refer to. What photo did Mary give to the Gourlay family?

[kerry]

(11-05-2017 05:38 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(11-04-2017 12:15 PM)kerry Wrote:  The supposed photograph of the deathbed is not available anymore in that thread - I saw a few articles that mentioned its existence, and that Mary had given it to the Gurley family. Is it available anywhere?

Kerry, my mind is a total blank on which photo you refer to. What photo did Mary give to the Gourlay family?

In the thread on angels v. ages, there was a photo linked that is no longer available, described as showing Lincoln ill and Mary staring into space. I saw an article in which Gurley's daughter claimed there was a deathbed photo that Mary had given to them. I saw later articles where a collector claimed to have this photo. It sounds farfetched, but the Gurley connection made me wonder if it existed. It seems like that was the photo posted in the thread.