Lincoln, 1865 - 2015.

[Donna McCreary]

(03-30-2015 10:30 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Donna, I've read that story too and I've always been enchanted by it. It's a story that is never referred to by certain historians who claim AL never loved his wife and was somehow tricked, seduced, or bound by his "honor" to marry her.

Do we know the source for it?

The source is Katherine Helm's book, Mary, Wife of Lincoln. I paraphrased most of it here. The problem with the Helm book is that there are no footnotes. She did use original sources, and many letters from family. Sadly, most of the letters written to Katherine have been lost or destroyed. This particular story had to have come from Elizabeth Edwards as she was part of the narrative in Helm's book.

[LincolnToddFan]

Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

[L Verge]

That was one of Kim Bauer's major points in his talk at the Surratt conference - much of Mary's problems, especially in her widowed years, was that she was trying to hold her own in a male-centric, Victorian world.

[LincolnToddFan]

Laurie I know it's a long shot but are there videotapes available of any of the activities at the Conference, or transcripts of the speeches? I would love to read them.

[Angela]

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Who of Lincoln's friends or colleagues do you think had the most reason to be upset over her meddling in political decisions he made?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Stanton. Not sure as for the degree of having reason compared to others, but he is the one who comes first to my mind as for being upset. He told her in his manner to stop meddling, and obviously she "sang smaller" afterwards. (I'll look for an o-account/citation later, maybe someo else knows either.)

[L Verge]

(03-31-2015 04:53 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Laurie I know it's a long shot but are there videotapes available of any of the activities at the Conference, or transcripts of the speeches? I would love to read them.

Sorry, Toia, but we decided years ago not to offer videos because it might affect regular attendance. As for transcripts, I have contacted previous speakers only to be told that they don't use anything but sparse notes and would not write it out fully for us to share.

[Donna McCreary]

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Well, there is one thing that the Helms had to gain by writing the book -- a big fat check from Robert Lincoln. Not only did he financially support the Helm family, he paid Katherine to paint the portrait of Mary that hangs in the White House, and he paid her to write the book. By doing so, he requested, and required, that he be able to read and approve the manuscript before it was sent to the publisher.
They maintained a very close relationship. The Lincolns gave the Helms an annual income in the same amount they gave to their grandchildren.

Even with financial pressure, I do think that Katherine used many primary sources and wrote a decent bio of Mary. It is sugar-coated, and Emilie had very little first hand knowledge for most of the stories. Conversations had to have been added or at least embellished. But overall, it is worth reading.

[LincolnToddFan]

(04-01-2015 08:38 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 04:53 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Laurie I know it's a long shot but are there videotapes available of any of the activities at the Conference, or transcripts of the speeches? I would love to read them.

Sorry, Toia, but we decided years ago not to offer videos because it might affect regular attendance. As for transcripts, I have contacted previous speakers only to be told that they don't use anything but sparse notes and would not write it out fully for us to share.

Awww...I understand. I will just have to continue to get vicarious enjoyment from others until I can attend myself!

---

(03-31-2015 11:21 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Who of Lincoln's friends or colleagues do you think had the most reason to be upset over her meddling in political decisions he made?

David Davis, Leonard Swett, William Herndon, the brothers Speed, Richard Oglesby.. just for starters. None of them as far as I know were married to women with MTL's level of intelligence or ambition. They also assumed Lincoln was "hen-pecked" as Herndon put it, because he was unwilling or unable to stop her meddling or her tantrums. They were offended on his behalf. I didn't include Edwin Stanton because even though he and Mary were not close, he was not among "Herndon's Informants" who became influential in creating a lasting, negative image of MTL for posterity. MTL writes of Stanton with respect and even affection in her letters...which surprised me.

---

(04-01-2015 09:25 AM)Donna McCreary Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Well, there is one thing that the Helms had to gain by writing the book -- a big fat check from Robert Lincoln. Not only did he financially support the Helm family, he paid Katherine to paint the portrait of Mary that hangs in the White House, and he paid her to write the book. By doing so, he requested, and required, that he be able to read and approve the manuscript before it was sent to the publisher.
They maintained a very close relationship. The Lincolns gave the Helms an annual income in the same amount they gave to their grandchildren.

Even with financial pressure, I do think that Katherine used many primary sources and wrote a decent bio of Mary. It is sugar-coated, and Emilie had very little first hand knowledge for most of the stories. Conversations had to have been added or at least embellished. But overall, it is worth reading.

Aside from her period of time with them in the WH during the war Emilie also came for extended visits to the Lincolns in Springfield as a teenager. Don't you think that made her a good first hand source and that she passed on stories of her time with them for her daughter's book?

I definitely agree that it's a little sugar-coated. On the very day of her death Emilie burned her diary, telling her daughter that there were too many hard feelings contained therein that should be buried and left in the past. However I am not sure if she was referring to any lingering bitterness toward her sister and brother-in-law, or if she had any "dirt" on their marriage and relationship that she didn't want to get out.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(04-01-2015 05:44 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I didn't include Edwin Stanton because even though he and Mary were not close, he was not among "Herndon's Informants" who became influential in creating a lasting, negative image of MTL for posterity.

I was just thinking of who was upset over Mary meddling into his political decisions, not of people who created a negative image of her (which Stanton certainly did indeed not do).

However, when Mary once tried to make Stanton give an appointment to a certain gentleman, Stanton was quite upset, called on her immediately, and informed her that the nation and the war effort demanded qualified people. She replied "I will never ask you for anything again." "True to her word," Stanton affirmed, "she never did."

[RJNorton]

(04-01-2015 07:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  However, when Mary once tried to make Stanton give an appointment to a certain gentleman, Stanton was quite upset, called on her immediately, and informed her that the nation and the war effort demanded qualified people. She replied "I will never ask you for anything again." "True to her word," Stanton affirmed, "she never did."

Eva, thanks for posting this. The interesting thing about it is that it was not in Mary's handwriting (according to the Turners' book). I wonder who wrote it and signed it? Here is the text:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(To Edwin Stanton December 8, 1864)

Sir:

The applicant Robert E. Parker is a strong Union man, and if you can grant his petition, which I send enclosed, you will bestow a personal favor upon me.

Mrs. Lincoln

[Donna McCreary]

(04-01-2015 05:44 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(04-01-2015 08:38 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 04:53 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Laurie I know it's a long shot but are there videotapes available of any of the activities at the Conference, or transcripts of the speeches? I would love to read them.

Sorry, Toia, but we decided years ago not to offer videos because it might affect regular attendance. As for transcripts, I have contacted previous speakers only to be told that they don't use anything but sparse notes and would not write it out fully for us to share.

Awww...I understand. I will just have to continue to get vicarious enjoyment from others until I can attend myself!

---

(03-31-2015 11:21 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Who of Lincoln's friends or colleagues do you think had the most reason to be upset over her meddling in political decisions he made?

David Davis, Leonard Swett, William Herndon, the brothers Speed, Richard Oglesby.. just for starters. None of them as far as I know were married to women with MTL's level of intelligence or ambition. They also assumed Lincoln was "hen-pecked" as Herndon put it, because he was unwilling or unable to stop her meddling or her tantrums. They were offended on his behalf. I didn't include Edwin Stanton because even though he and Mary were not close, he was not among "Herndon's Informants" who became influential in creating a lasting, negative image of MTL for posterity. MTL writes of Stanton with respect and even affection in her letters...which surprised me.

---

(04-01-2015 09:25 AM)Donna McCreary Wrote:  

(03-31-2015 01:59 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Ah, I see. Well personally I believe Helms and her mother Emilie are incomparable, first-rate sources on their famous kinswoman. Kitty Helm's book was written in the early 1920's or 30's when Mary had been dead for many years. They could have gained nor lost anything by writing "Mary, Wife of Lincoln" except setting the record straight. Mary died estranged from Emilie. Instead of acting as a source for the book, Emilie could have opted to remain silent.

Most of the harshest criticism of MTL in her own time came from her husband's coterie of equally possessive male colleagues and friends. They seemed to resent the amount of influence she had with AL, and her meddling in politics, and her refusal to embrace 100% the place assigned to Victorian females which was hearth and home, like their own wives had done. It does not seem to have occurred to AL's clique that he himself encouraged his wife's input into his career.

Yet, it is the extremely negative memories of AL's MALE friends that has formed the basis of how MTL is viewed to this day, and that is what irritates me so.

Thanks, Donna!

Well, there is one thing that the Helms had to gain by writing the book -- a big fat check from Robert Lincoln. Not only did he financially support the Helm family, he paid Katherine to paint the portrait of Mary that hangs in the White House, and he paid her to write the book. By doing so, he requested, and required, that he be able to read and approve the manuscript before it was sent to the publisher.
They maintained a very close relationship. The Lincolns gave the Helms an annual income in the same amount they gave to their grandchildren.

Even with financial pressure, I do think that Katherine used many primary sources and wrote a decent bio of Mary. It is sugar-coated, and Emilie had very little first hand knowledge for most of the stories. Conversations had to have been added or at least embellished. But overall, it is worth reading.

Aside from her period of time with them in the WH during the war Emilie also came for extended visits to the Lincolns in Springfield as a teenager. Don't you think that made her a good first hand source and that she passed on stories of her time with them for her daughter's book?

I definitely agree that it's a little sugar-coated. On the very day of her death Emilie burned her diary, telling her daughter that there were too many hard feelings contained therein that should be buried and left in the past. However I am not sure if she was referring to any lingering bitterness toward her sister and brother-in-law, or if she had any "dirt" on their marriage and relationship that she didn't want to get out.

It made her a good first hand source for some of the stories, but for most of them, Emilie was not present. In most of the childhood stories, Emilie had not even born yet, so she was dependent on others versions of the stories.