Thomas F. Harney
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08-06-2015, 08:46 PM
Post: #106
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
I agree that any future comments on that subject should be moved to the "other" category.
So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in? |
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08-06-2015, 10:49 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 10:53 PM by J. Beckert.)
Post: #107
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
These comments can be moved to the "other" category, but I'd first like to say I agree with Rick completely. Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. This entire conflict could have, and should have, been avoided without this horrible, bloody war. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of that lays on Lincoln's hands. Slavery, which elicists the most whiney, white guilt ridden responses more than any other on this forum, was dying a slow death by the 1850's. While many here demonize Gen. Lee, he did say it was a great moral evil - yet he fought for his homeland. Were his intentions just to continue to fight for what he deemed a moral evil? That doesn't matter here - he was Southern and due to the recent political climate, which the lemmings adore, he's labeled a racist. Nevermind he freed his own slaves and educated them before Lincoln's decree - he's just a Stars & Bars waving racist. Let's eliminate all reference to a noble man (and a flag) who insisted his own slaves be educated before he set them free, because the media tells you how to think. Lee's plan was light years ahead of Lincoln's.
Did I see someone ask Rick if he was a "flagger"? If someone on his forum, six months ago, had the Stars & Bars for an avitar, it wouldn't have raised too many hackles. Many of the members here had relatives, who'd never owned a slave, that fought for the South. But throw a little misguided attention to a flag that flew over slavery for 4 years, while the Stars & Stripes flew over it for 88, and you get the expected results from the terrified masses. No one here thinks slavery was a good thing - you can take that to the bank. But those who insist on rehashing the wrongs of the past to make themselves feel better are perpetuating racism more than they know. "There are few subjects that ignite more casual, uninformed bigotry and condescension from elites in this nation more than Dixie - Jonah Goldberg" |
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08-07-2015, 04:18 AM
Post: #108
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(05-09-2015 03:48 PM)Wild Bill Wrote: OK. I wrote what I am going to give you back in 2010. It is not Stelnick's final copy but all I have. To make it "easier" (never a word to use with Rick Stelnick) I am going to enclose my introduction to his Dixie Reckoning manuscript. If you do not understand it--well, I do not either! If I understand this correctly the late Mr. Stelnick believed that the Harney mission was not sanctioned/ordered/known by Judah Benjamin; rather Harney's mission was separate from the plot Benjamin was actually involved in. Is that correct (according to Mr. Stelnick's thinking)? |
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08-07-2015, 06:28 AM
Post: #109
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
I think it is time for all of us to sit back and take a deep breath!We all have opinions of the the late Mr.Stelnick[good or bad] don't we!
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08-07-2015, 06:54 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 09:49 PM by Gene C.)
Post: #110
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
Here is a copy of the book about Philip Henson mentioned in Roger's post. I haven't read it yet.
https://books.google.com/books?id=QrUBAA...&q&f=false "Some readers will be aware of a subliterature on Federal and Confederate spies, consisting of two dozen spy memoirs and modern books descended from them. These writings are so heavily fictionalized that even the most believable parts are suspect. Some of the memoirist were not in intelligence work at all, a fact that modern writers are not aware of or choose to ignore. And even memoirist with experience in espionage, such as Allan Pinkerton, paid almost as little respect to factuality as did the authors of the complete fictions. (from ""The Secret War for the Union" by Edwin Fishel, page 2) Can't say this quote applies to the book about Henson or Mr. Stelnick's book, (since I have not read either one) but it is my understanding Stelnick's book relies much upon a secret diary that no one has seen or read. No one seems to know what happened to Mr Stelnick's notes and research. I agree with Herb's comment. So when is this "Old Enough To Know Better" supposed to kick in? |
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08-07-2015, 08:02 AM
Post: #111
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
If Benjamin truly did not know about the Harney mission, then who was the top official who did? Jefferson Davis? If neither Benjamin nor Davis knew, then did it stop at Mosby? Is it conceivable Harney was assigned to place a bomb in the White House without the knowledge of either Davis or Benjamin?
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08-07-2015, 08:14 AM
Post: #112
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
Roger,
That is what I think Stelnick believed, i.e., the bombing of the White House was independently thought up by Gen Raines and the Torpedo Bureau, they used Booth and his gang to infiltrate the White House basement, and when their powderman Harney failed to show, Booth carried out an attempted assassination of the Union cabinet individually and muffed it. I believe that he traces all of this to the New York faction, a group of New York City old Dutch (i.e., here in the US since the late 1600s and operating out of a Water Street warehouse) investors who operated independently of the Confederates in Richmond for their own economic purposes. When Booth's game failed to carry out their plot, only killing Lincon, the NYC Dutch eliminated all the loose ends using JJ Reford as their hit man |
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08-07-2015, 08:33 AM
Post: #113
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 07:23 AM)Rosieo Wrote:(08-06-2015 10:49 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: These comments can be moved to the "other" category, but I'd first like to say I agree with Rick completely. Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. This entire conflict could have, and should have, been avoided without this horrible, bloody war. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of that lays on Lincoln's hands. Slavery, which elicists the most whiney, white guilt ridden responses more than any other on this forum, was dying a slow death by the 1850's. While many here demonize Gen. Lee, he did say it was a great moral evil - yet he fought for his homeland. Were his intentions just to continue to fight for what he deemed a moral evil? That doesn't matter here - he was Southern and due to the recent political climate, which the lemmings adore, he's labeled a racist. Nevermind he freed his own slaves and educated them before Lincoln's decree - he's just a Stars & Bars waving racist. Let's eliminate all reference to a noble man (and a flag) who insisted his own slaves be educated before he set them free, because the media tells you how to think. Lee's plan was light years ahead of Lincoln's. Rosieo, My meaning was simply that slavery was not a cause worth fighting and dying for. No one said that black lives did not matter. I said that I agree with General Lee when he said that slavery was a great moral evil, but I cannot take responsibility for slavery so I cannot apologize for it as some, such as John Fazio, seem to desire Southerners to do. I also responded earlier that your question regarding the flag did not offend me; be assured that it did not. The problem seems to be that there is too much modern perspective in looking back over our nation's history. It cannot be understood if it is looked at through a 21st century prism. We can learn from history, but cannot expect historic persons to behave the way 21st century culture seems to demand that they do. Rick |
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08-07-2015, 08:45 AM
Post: #114
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 08:14 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Roger, Thanks, Bill. I sure agree that the Harney mission was separate from Stelnick's main thesis. I wonder if we can be certain that there was an operation at 178 1/2 Water Street. In Lincoln Murder Conspiracies Dr. Hanchett indicates there is no reference to a company at that address in NYC tax records. |
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08-07-2015, 08:46 AM
Post: #115
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
I also read the Stelnick manuscript years ago, and Bill has given an excellent synopsis of it. Personally, I think he (Stelnick) made some very good points. Unfortunately, however, he had some very undesirable personality traits that over-rode his historical research with those of us who dealt with him. Frankly, I don't think that his central theme that Yankee financiers were out to get Lincoln is all that far-fetched. It's just easier to blame everything related to our Civil War on the Confederates.
Getting back to the Harney theme, is it all that far-fetched to think that, from the fall of 1864 on, things were going so badly for the South that it became unwritten policy from the top that anything was feasible if it gained ground for the Confederacy? In other words, people such as Gen. Raines could devise strategy without the approval from the top? If Davis wanted to continue the war via guerrilla tactics, wouldn't he also sanction "do or die" attempts? |
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08-07-2015, 11:42 AM
Post: #116
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 08:33 AM)Rick Smith Wrote:(08-07-2015 07:23 AM)Rosieo Wrote:(08-06-2015 10:49 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: These comments can be moved to the "other" category, but I'd first like to say I agree with Rick completely. Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. This entire conflict could have, and should have, been avoided without this horrible, bloody war. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of that lays on Lincoln's hands. Slavery, which elicists the most whiney, white guilt ridden responses more than any other on this forum, was dying a slow death by the 1850's. While many here demonize Gen. Lee, he did say it was a great moral evil - yet he fought for his homeland. Were his intentions just to continue to fight for what he deemed a moral evil? That doesn't matter here - he was Southern and due to the recent political climate, which the lemmings adore, he's labeled a racist. Nevermind he freed his own slaves and educated them before Lincoln's decree - he's just a Stars & Bars waving racist. Let's eliminate all reference to a noble man (and a flag) who insisted his own slaves be educated before he set them free, because the media tells you how to think. Lee's plan was light years ahead of Lincoln's. Rick: You misread me. I do not desire Southerners, nor anyone else, to apologize for anything. I merely suggest that in discussions of the causes of the war, in forums such as this, or elsewhere, it should be acknowledged by everyone, irrespective of their region or ancestry, that slavery was the root cause of the war and that talk of states' rights, tariffs, cultural differences, etc., serves only to cloud the issue. The political, social, economic and cultural dimensions are all tied to the institution of slavery, without which there would have been no war, because nothing else was worth fighting about. The causes given by South Carolina and other states for seceding make this perfectly clear. John |
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08-07-2015, 12:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 01:59 PM by L Verge.)
Post: #117
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 08:45 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(08-07-2015 08:14 AM)Wild Bill Wrote: Roger, Back in the 1970s, James O. Hall, Civil War historian and author William C. Davis, and then-editor of CWTI, Charles Cooney, did extensive research related to 178 1/2 Water Street and came up with the conclusions that Bill Hanchett then passed on in his Conspiracies book. Since that time, other great researchers have questioned that address' legitimacy also. If you want to delve into the Dixie Reckoning theme also, start with the name Demill in the early histories of New York. You will eventually wind up with Cecil B DeMille -- just as an aside... |
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08-07-2015, 02:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 04:19 PM by L Verge.)
Post: #118
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
Rick Smith brought me lunch today (Southern gentleman that he is), and we were discussing Harney's mission and a report that Col. Edward Ripley made in his post-war memoirs about his experience on April 4 after setting up headquarters in Richmond near the Confederate Torpedo Bureau. I believe that Ripley's unit was the first Union group to occupy the evacuated city.
According to Ripley, he interviewed a Confederate enlisted man who worked at the Torpedo Bureau and wanted to report a strange project at the Bureau. The man's name was William Snyder, and he said that a special mission had been dispatched by Gen. Rains that was aimed at the head of the Yankee government. Snyder wanted Lincoln warned, but could give no further information (names, etc.) because the mission was top secret. Ripley believed Snyder enough to arrange for him to visit Lincoln on board the Malvern in the James River. One hitch - Snyder had to write out his concerns and could not meet face-to-face with the President. Lincoln is said to have dismissed the warning I believe that Harney's trip began on April 2, so Ripley's story would fit timelines perfectly. Hall, Tidwell, Gaddy, Steers, and others always wanted to find proof to link Harney, Rains, and Booth together. Steers covers this on pages 90-91 of Blood on the Moon. Come Retribution goes into more detail on Harney, Rains, and Snyder on pages 419-421. |
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08-07-2015, 02:41 PM
Post: #119
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 07:23 AM)Rosieo Wrote:(08-06-2015 10:49 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: These comments can be moved to the "other" category, but I'd first like to say I agree with Rick completely. Not one life of the 700,000 sacrificed was worth one slave life. This entire conflict could have, and should have, been avoided without this horrible, bloody war. Whether you want to believe it or not, some of that lays on Lincoln's hands. Slavery, which elicists the most whiney, white guilt ridden responses more than any other on this forum, was dying a slow death by the 1850's. While many here demonize Gen. Lee, he did say it was a great moral evil - yet he fought for his homeland. Were his intentions just to continue to fight for what he deemed a moral evil? That doesn't matter here - he was Southern and due to the recent political climate, which the lemmings adore, he's labeled a racist. Nevermind he freed his own slaves and educated them before Lincoln's decree - he's just a Stars & Bars waving racist. Let's eliminate all reference to a noble man (and a flag) who insisted his own slaves be educated before he set them free, because the media tells you how to think. Lee's plan was light years ahead of Lincoln's. Great points. Thank you! |
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08-07-2015, 03:11 PM
Post: #120
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RE: Thomas F. Harney
(08-07-2015 02:27 PM)L Verge Wrote: Rick Smith brought me lunch today (Southern gentleman that he is), and we were discussing Harney's mission and a report that Col. Edward Ripley made in his post-war memoirs about his experience on April 4 after setting headquarters in Richmond near the Confederate Torpedo Bureau. I believe that Ripley's unit was the first Union group to occupy the evacuated city. Thanx, for these posts. I don't recall them from previous posts. They support my research. nicely. I'm trying to prove that the mission was other than a "Grand Plan". I wonder if there was a "plan" at all? |
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