Thomas F. Harney

[SSlater]

This is for anyone working on Harney.
I'm working on Harney AGAIN. This time I see his record differently this time (See "U.S. Army Enlistments,1798 - 1914, Thomas F Harney") It says he enlisted 23 Jan. 1853 for 5 years and was discharged 23 Dec. 1858 - Expiration of service. HE DID NOT DESERT.
This is not earth shaking, and we may not find him sooner, but we should be working with the correct information.
The man just above him - enlisted the same day - same place, HE-
deserted 28 June 1854.
Stay tuned in....

[SSlater]

(03-15-2015 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote:  This is for anyone working on Harney.
I'm working on Harney AGAIN. This time I see his record differently this time (See "U.S. Army Enlistments,1798 - 1914, Thomas F Harney") It says he enlisted 23 Jan. 1853 for 5 years and was discharged 23 Dec. 1858 - Expiration of service. HE DID NOT DESERT.
This is not earth shaking, and we may not find him sooner, but we should be working with the correct information.
The man just above him - enlisted the same day - same place, HE-
deserted 28 June 1854.
Stay tuned in....

.
Up to this point, we generally agree that he snuck off to some prairie town and hid for the rest of his life, under another name.
Maybe not. Harney has spent most of his life at war. (5 years in the U.S. Army + 4 years in the Rebel Army.) and has gotten good at it.
I think he might have continued this "profession" and joined the "Fenians". That was an Irish Brotherhood, in the U. S., that was trying to help the "Homeland" in their fight with the British. The Fenians decided to invade Canada, and hold it, until the Homeland was made Free.
In 1866, The Brotherhood gathered in Buffalo, NY. and other towns along the border, and did invade Canada. They did fight. They were doing quite well, until the U.S. withdrew their support of them. Then they began to lose. As you already know Harney was Irish-born, and he had skills that the Fenians could use.
I'm looking for him in their records. 1 Did he join them? 2 Did he fight? 3 Was he captured? 4 Did he survive? 5 Where did he go after that? And 6 with Whom?
I feel that one of those Tom Harneys in remote Montana, etc. might be our "made over" Torpedo man.
...gimme time, and stay tuned in.
P.S. If you have any ideas, tell me about them. plez.

[SSlater]

(03-16-2015 03:44 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(03-15-2015 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote:  This is for anyone working on Harney.
I'm working on Harney AGAIN. This time I see his record differently this time (See "U.S. Army Enlistments,1798 - 1914, Thomas F Harney") It says he enlisted 23 Jan. 1853 for 5 years and was discharged 23 Dec. 1858 - Expiration of service. HE DID NOT DESERT.
This is not earth shaking, and we may not find him sooner, but we should be working with the correct information.
The man just above him - enlisted the same day - same place, HE-
deserted 28 June 1854.
Stay tuned in....

.
Up to this point, we generally agree that he snuck off to some prairie town and hid for the rest of his life, under another name.
Maybe not. Harney has spent most of his life at war. (5 years in the U.S. Army + 4 years in the Rebel Army.) and has gotten good at it.
I think he might have continued this "profession" and joined the "Fenians". That was an Irish Brotherhood, in the U. S., that was trying to help the "Homeland" in their fight with the British. The Fenians decided to invade Canada, and hold it, until the Homeland was made Free.
In 1866, The Brotherhood gathered in Buffalo, NY. and other towns along the border, and did invade Canada. They did fight. They were doing quite well, until the U.S. withdrew their support of them. Then they began to lose. As you already know Harney was Irish-born, and he had skills that the Fenians could use.
I'm looking for him in their records. 1 Did he join them? 2 Did he fight? 3 Was he captured? 4 Did he survive? 5 Where did he go after that? And 6 with Whom?
I feel that one of those Tom Harneys in remote Montana, etc. might be our "made over" Torpedo man.
...gimme time, and stay tuned in.
P.S. If you have any ideas, tell me about them. plez.

Progress Report: I found a Thomas Harney, in New Orleans, before the war - Age 26, born Ireland, 1834. That fits exactly what I was looking for. Also, attached to that listing was his Civil War record in the CSA Engineers. I don't really trust that, but I will use it until I can prove otherwise.
In the 1870 Census there is a Thomas Harney living in Kansas City, MO, born Ireland 1834, etc. OK! - married to "Catherine", age 34, born Canada East, and a passel of kids. (He may not be the father - if he married a Widow.) I need help from some of our members in Canada.
What is included in "Canada East"? Is there a "Vital Records" Bureau there where I can send for a Marriage Record? Please!
I lose that family completely about 1880, did they move back to Canada?
I'm hoping to find that Thomas went to Canada with the Fenians, and came back with Catherine and the little ones.
Stay tuned! "Sarah"

[SSlater]

Here's a look at Harney's life in the 2nd U.S. Infantry, Company B. in 1853. At that time, the 2nd Inf. was posted to Fort Randall, which was located on the Western edge of what today is The Missouri National Recreational River. Of course , today the Fort is in ruins, but it is identifiable. It was on the West bank of the river, near the South Dakota - Nebraska border.
The Fort was established by General William Selby HARNEY. (I doubt that he was any relation to Thomas, because the General was born Aug. 27, 1800 in Haysboro, Tenn.) The Fort was intended to keep peace between the Indians and the settlers, and to keep Peace between the Indian tribes.
There were some comments about the "quality" of the Troopers and their Life, that manned the Fort. "The daily routine was monotonous -day after day it was the same. -that led to low morale and desertions. One half of the recruits were Irish immigrants. (the Irish were not thought of as desirable, and they couldn't find other jobs.) The Fort hosted the likes of Buffalo Bill and Jim Bridger. In later years it was the prison for "Sitting Bull" and "Standing Bear".
PS. There were other military units there at the same time - such as "Mounted Infantry" and "Cavalry" I 'll bet that Harney was sun burned from 1853 until 1858, when his enlistment expired. I wonder if the 2nd Inf played parts in those old Western Movies.

[JMadonna]

Jane Singer in Confederate Dirty War gave as complete a rundown on Harney's career as I've seen. Hopefully you've seen it.

Speaking of the Torpedo Plot, William H. Snyder under oath gave his statement of the plot to General Ripley who wrote it all down. Has anyone seen it or know where it's located?

[Jane Singer]

(06-09-2015 12:26 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  Jane Singer in Confederate Dirty War gave as complete a rundown on Harney's career as I've seen. Hopefully you've seen it.

Speaking of the Torpedo Plot, William H. Snyder under oath gave his statement of the plot to General Ripley who wrote it all down. Has anyone seen it or know where it's located?

Thank you, Jerry. The only report I was able to find—and it has been a while—was a retelling of Snyder's talk with Ripley in his Vermont General: The Unusual Experiences of Edward Hastings Ripley.
Perhaps this report is of record. I'm going to think about where it might be, if it is still extant.

---

(03-18-2015 11:16 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(03-16-2015 03:44 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(03-15-2015 10:51 PM)SSlater Wrote:  This is for anyone working on Harney.
I'm working on Harney AGAIN. This time I see his record differently this time (See "U.S. Army Enlistments,1798 - 1914, Thomas F Harney") It says he enlisted 23 Jan. 1853 for 5 years and was discharged 23 Dec. 1858 - Expiration of service. HE DID NOT DESERT.
This is not earth shaking, and we may not find him sooner, but we should be working with the correct information.
The man just above him - enlisted the same day - same place, HE-
deserted 28 June 1854.
Stay tuned in....

.
Up to this point, we generally agree that he snuck off to some prairie town and hid for the rest of his life, under another name.

Maybe not. Harney has spent most of his life at war. (5 years in the U.S. Army + 4 years in the Rebel Army.) and has gotten good at it.
I think he might have continued this "profession" and joined the "Fenians". That was an Irish Brotherhood, in the U. S., that was trying to help the "Homeland" in their fight with the British. The Fenians decided to invade Canada, and hold it, until the Homeland was made Free.
In 1866, The Brotherhood gathered in Buffalo, NY. and other towns along the border, and did invade Canada. They did fight. They were doing quite well, until the U.S. withdrew their support of them. Then they began to lose. As you already know Harney was Irish-born, and he had skills that the Fenians could use.
I'm looking for him in their records. 1 Did he join them? 2 Did he fight? 3 Was he captured? 4 Did he survive? 5 Where did he go after that? And 6 with Whom?
I feel that one of those Tom Harneys in remote Montana, etc. might be our "made over" Torpedo man.
...gimme time, and stay tuned in.
P.S. If you have any ideas, tell me about them. plez.

Progress Report: I found a Thomas Harney, in New Orleans, before the war - Age 26, born Ireland, 1834. That fits exactly what I was looking for. Also, attached to that listing was his Civil War record in the CSA Engineers. I don't really trust that, but I will use it until I can prove otherwise.
In the 1870 Census there is a Thomas Harney living in Kansas City, MO, born Ireland 1834, etc. OK! - married to "Catherine", age 34, born Canada East, and a passel of kids. (He may not be the father - if he married a Widow.) I need help from some of our members in Canada.
What is included in "Canada East"? Is there a "Vital Records" Bureau there where I can send for a Marriage Record? Please!
I lose that family completely about 1880, did they move back to Canada?
I'm hoping to find that Thomas went to Canada with the Fenians, and came back with Catherine and the little ones.
Stay tuned! "Sarah"

Sarah, bravo to you! Some years back Dr. James O. Hall and I spent time and money trying to track Harney down. Upon his release from Elmire he did state that his home was "New Orleans," but later said, "Virginia."
I'll have a look as well. Been writing other books but am so glad to see your posts!

[SSlater]

Me. again. This Harney business ain't easy. But my failures spur me on to be a little more creative - look where you never looked before. Thus, I have stumbled on to an angle that does not bring us closer to Harney, but it concerns him and it's a story that you have never read before. So, it should be entertaining.

When Richmond directed Mosby to cooperate with Thomas N. Conrad on an unnamed mission, Mosby was short of available troops, but he says that he manage to create a new Company H, and he sent them to escort Harney into Washington.

That's fine, but where did he find enough men to create a completely new Company, this late in the war. I assumed that he took a few men from each of the existing Companies. I was wrong. He created a [b]NEW Company of good men, well horsed, well armed, and full of combat experience. HOW?

On February 17, 1864, The Partisan Ranger Act was repealed by the Confederate Congress and the affected Rangers were Ordered to sign up with a Regular Cavalry Unit. (Everyone, but Mosby and The McNeill's Rangers -they were allowed to continue as Rangers.)

That's easier said than done. There was one Ranger Group that was just onerous enough to say NUTS. (At least, I think they said that. - Maybe not.)

These mavericks were the "Chinquapin Rangers" from South-East Fairfax County, VA. - They fought on through the summer of 1864, as Rangers, until September 6, 1864, when they were specifically ORDERED to desist and to join Gen. Fitzhugh Lee in the Shenandoah Valley. NUTS again.

I don't know whether they tried to join Mosby, or Mosby invited them to join up with him. Then despite all Orders to the contrary, The "Chinquapin Rangers" joined Mosby.

Apparently Mosby had worked, before this with them, when they were Company H in the 15th Virginia Cavalry. He knew them to be - Good men, Well horsed, etc.

In summary, "The Chinquapin Rangers" were the Mosby unit, that that assisted Harney in his attempt to reach Washington.

PS. In Sept 1864, when the "Chinquapin Rangers" showed up in Mosby's Camp, was the same time period when Mosby sent another Ranger Unit to King George County to assist Conrad's attempt to nab Lincoln.

[L Verge]

(06-12-2015 02:30 PM)SSlater Wrote:  Me. again. This Harney business ain't easy. But my failures spur me on to be a little more creative - look where you never looked before. Thus, I have stumbled on to an angle that does not bring us closer to Harney, but it concerns him and it's a story that you have never read before. So, it should be entertaining.

When Richmond directed Mosby to cooperate with Thomas N. Conrad on an unnamed mission, Mosby was short of available troops, but he says that he manage to create a new Company H, and he sent them to escort Harney into Washington.

That's fine, but where did he find enough men to create a completely new Company, this late in the war. I assumed that he took a few men from each of the existing Companies. I was wrong. He created a [b]NEW Company of good men, well horsed, well armed, and full of combat experience. HOW?

On February 17, 1864, The Partisan Ranger Act was repealed by the Confederate Congress and the affected Rangers were Ordered to sign up with a Regular Cavalry Unit. (Everyone, but Mosby and The McNeill's Rangers -they were allowed to continue as Rangers.)

That's easier said than done. There was one Ranger Group that was just onerous enough to say NUTS. (At least, I think they said that. - Maybe not.)

These mavericks were the "Chinquapin Rangers" from South-East Fairfax County, VA. - They fought on through the summer of 1864, as Rangers, until September 6, 1864, when they were specifically ORDERED to desist and to join Gen. Fitzhugh Lee in the Shenandoah Valley. NUTS again.

I don't know whether they tried to join Mosby, or Mosby invited them to join up with him. Then despite all Orders to the contrary, The "Chinquapin Rangers" joined Mosby.

Apparently Mosby had worked, before this with them, when they were Company H in the 15th Virginia Cavalry. He knew them to be - Good men, Well horsed, etc.

In summary, "The Chinquapin Rangers" were the Mosby unit, that that assisted Harney in his attempt to reach Washington.

PS. In Sept 1864, when the "Chinquapin Rangers" showed up in Mosby's Camp, was the same time period when Mosby sent another Ranger Unit to King George County to assist Conrad's attempt to nab Lincoln.

There's a side story that goes along with the Chinquapin Rangers. The citizens of Prince George's County, Maryland, (home to Surratt House) took up a collection during the Civil War to honor Gen. Robert E. Lee. They chose to gift him with a fine pair of golden spurs. How to get them to the General was another problem.

One mission that the Chinquapin Rangers undertook was to personally pick up and deliver the gold spurs. The spurs passed through to Miss Elizabeth Frobel, who brought the spurs to the William S. Reid farm on Franconia Road in Fairfax County, Virginia. With thousands of Union troops nearby, the gold spurs were picked up and transported by Chinquapin Rangers to General Lee, who received them while he was at a general review of his army near Culpeper Courthouse. Some sources claim that Lee wore the golden spurs at Appomattox as he arrived impeccably dressed for his surrender to Gen. Grant.

BTW: Have any of you ever eaten chinquapins? When I was a child, you could find the bushes in most overgrown areas, and the tasty nuts grew in little pods. The bush is a form of elm, however, and were pretty much wiped out during the disease period of the mid-20th century (at least here in Maryland) that wiped out American elms. Now, I don't want to hear any Yankee jokes about the Chinaquapin Rangers being a little "nutty"...

[SSlater]

JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.

[JMadonna]

(06-12-2015 09:40 PM)SSlater Wrote:  JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.

Did you ever find Snyder's statement?

[SSlater]

(06-15-2015 08:38 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:40 PM)SSlater Wrote:  JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.

Did you ever find Snyder's statement?

No. I felt that the many descriptions of his statement and his efforts to be heard, were enough, for the time being. This wasn't a good idea because his recorded words could tell us more. However I was fully occupied with my other research. I can't find enough "to prove Harney, really existed." We are still accepting information on Harney that is always a little bit off. ( I made an error, I think, when I said that he never "Disserted. Now, I can show you where he did dessert and also where he didn't dessert.) Yipes!
Another misinformation, widely believed, is that Harney was carrying explosives. I now read that he had fuses and timers, "that he was delivering to Mosby" and expected to pick up the explosives Washington. Who was that? Any ideas? Harney was a slick one.
For example: Thomas Harney, who disserted from the U. S. Army, joined the Army in 1859, and disserted in Nov. 1861. How could he be living in New Orleans in 1860? Maybe that can be "explained", but I can't accept the info, until know. Oh Me! back to work.

[SSlater]

Too often we guess at answers, that have eluded us, or select convenient answers and move on. I'm trying to find "the real answer" or keep looking .
Let's drop back and think about a "6' - 0" diameter sewer pipe into the White House. NO WAY!
A 6' -0" diam. pipe drains Dulles Airport. I know because I was for a time the Resident Engineer for Construction of Dulles. That line drains to a Sewage Treatment plant in Washington.
The White House was built in 1790 and opened for business in 1800. (Burned in 1814, got running water in1833, got hot water in 1853.) At first, sewage must have been carried out and dumped in a pit. They might have used a system like the Old Romans had, where there was a "Tunnel System", where waste dropped into the Tunnel and was cleaned out by slaves. Unfortunately, they worked in a crouched position - maybe 4' - 0" clearance. That would have to have been built during original construction, (and abandoned by 1860. ) (PS 1, there are 32 bathrooms, plus the kitchen facilities, in the White House today.)
(PS 2 At first, Dulles had "Settling Ponds" for waste water, but that attracted DUCKS, lots of them. So many, that Airplanes could not use the runways. The 6'-0" pipe HAD to be Built.)
I am trying to find a Quote that I read somewhere, that the entrance was through a "Greenhouse". Any other ideas?

[RJNorton]

John, there is a 3 1/2 minute video on the Harney mission here.

Two familiar names...Jane Singer and Dave Gaddy...are interviewed in the video.

John, like you, I have also heard the "greenhouse" version.

[L Verge]

(06-26-2015 04:35 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  John, there is a 3 1/2 minute video on the Harney mission here.

Two familiar names...Jane Singer and Dave Gaddy...are interviewed in the video.

John, like you, I have also heard the "greenhouse" version.

I have heard the greenhouse version also. For some reason, I think it was in a documentary on TV about the possibilities of a plot to blow up the White House during the Civil War. I somehow remember computer generated graphics depicted all the ways that the house could be demolished as well as how shooters could take out the president.

The diameter information about the pipes was not a precise measurement. William Seale, who wrote an official history of the White House, told us verbally that the pipes were big enough for a man to walk through. The average man back then was several inches shy of six feet, I believe.

[JMadonna]

(06-20-2015 09:28 PM)SSlater Wrote:  

(06-15-2015 08:38 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(06-12-2015 09:40 PM)SSlater Wrote:  JMADONNA - Yes, I've seen Jane Singer's book that includes Harney - Good Job, eh wat! but I can't find Harney in "Find a Grave". Where did he go after Elmira? (I'm guessing that he went to Canada with the Fenians.) I did find a Thomas F. Harney who married in Canada and returned to the US with a gang of kids - but I can't prove that he is "our" Harney. As for the "torpedo plot", I lay claim to finding Snyder. I brought him to the attention of James O. Hall and he finished the story for us. That's when I learned that you don't have anything - until you have it all. I really enjoy digging out the facts.

Did you ever find Snyder's statement?

No. I felt that the many descriptions of his statement and his efforts to be heard, were enough, for the time being. This wasn't a good idea because his recorded words could tell us more. However I was fully occupied with my other research. I can't find enough "to prove Harney, really existed." We are still accepting information on Harney that is always a little bit off. ( I made an error, I think, when I said that he never "Disserted. Now, I can show you where he did dessert and also where he didn't dessert.) Yipes!
Another misinformation, widely believed, is that Harney was carrying explosives. I now read that he had fuses and timers, "that he was delivering to Mosby" and expected to pick up the explosives Washington. Who was that? Any ideas? Harney was a slick one.
For example: Thomas Harney, who disserted from the U. S. Army, joined the Army in 1859, and disserted in Nov. 1861. How could he be living in New Orleans in 1860? Maybe that can be "explained", but I can't accept the info, until know. Oh Me! back to work.

I believe the Harney mission and Stringfellow missions were linked. Stringfellow's orders came straight from Davis and he was arrested with a map of Washington's defenses. I postulated that his failure to get the info to Harney led to his capture.