Who are the plumbers?

[loetar44]

We all know that after Lincoln was laid at rest at Oak Ridge his coffin was in the following years opened 5 times (Dec. 21, 1865; Sept. 19, 1871; Oct. 9, 1874; April 14, 1887 and Sept. 1901).

It was Samuel S. Elder (34), a skilled tinner from Springfield (his tin shop was just at the northeast corner of the Public Square where Lincoln's body lay in state) having soldered AL’s coffin shut on May 4, 1865, just before the body was removed to Oak Ridge Cemetery. He closed his written account (dated Feb. 6, 1899) with the following words (sic): “…The Moment when So far as this world is Concerned the face of Abraham Lincoln was Coverd to be Sean No More on Earth.” and thought he was the last person who saw Lincoln. He could not have known at that moment that this was fully untrue.

The coffin was again opened on Dec. 21, 1865. My question: who opened the coffin?

In the book "Myths after Lincoln" by Lloyd Lewis (1891-1949), published 1940, on page 265 is stated that plumber Leon F. Hopkins made an opening in the lead box on that date. But …. how could this be ??? Hopkins was born July 15, 1851 and was only 14 years (5 months and 6 days) old, still a child. Some accounts (internet) say that he was not a skilled plumber, but a “plumber’s assistant”. Why was it allowed that a young boy opened the lead lined coffin of AL? In my eyes that does not make any sense at all. Why is Lewis writing this? What was his source? I simply believe it can’t be true. But who did then open the coffin? Why is that not known?

Also, Lewis states in his book that Hopkins again opened AL’s coffin on Sept. 19, 1871. Hopkins was at that moment 20 years (2 months and 4 days) old. Still very young. I tend to believe that it was not Hopkins, who closed the coffin. And in reference to Oct 9, 1874 George L. Cashman (custodian Lincoln Tomb, 1951-1975) wrote in a letter (dated May 25, 1970) to Mr. Bert Sheldon (the man who uncovered in 1971 that Samuel Elder closed AL’s coffin on May 5, 1865): “…When the time approached for the dedication of the Tomb [Oct. 15, 1874] it was found that the metalic casket would not fit into the marble sarcophagus which had been prepared to receive it. The body was then placed in a lead lined red cedar coffin, on October 9, 1874, and the lead lining was sealed by soldering by Col. A.J.Babcock”. So in Oct. 1874 it was Babcock and not Hopkins! But who is Col. A.J. Babcock? Why do we not know more about him?

As far as I know Hopkins did indeed open the coffin on April 14, 1887. It is well documented in written statements (I believe). And Hopkins was again present during the last viewing on Sept. 26, 1901, however it was his nephew Charles L. Wiley Sr. who did the work. So Hopkins claim that he was the “last person who saw Lincoln” seems (to me) not true.

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Is it possible to uncover the names (and more info) re. the plumbers who opened / and sealed the coffin air tight on the various dates?

[L Verge]

(02-09-2015 06:43 PM)loetar44 Wrote:  We all know that after Lincoln was laid at rest at Oak Ridge his coffin was in the following years opened 5 times (Dec. 21, 1865; Sept. 19, 1871; Oct. 9, 1874; April 14, 1887 and Sept. 1901).

It was Samuel S. Elder (34), a skilled tinner from Springfield (his tin shop was just at the northeast corner of the Public Square where Lincoln's body lay in state) having soldered AL’s coffin shut on May 4, 1865, just before the body was removed to Oak Ridge Cemetery. He closed his written account (dated Feb. 6, 1899) with the following words (sic): “…The Moment when So far as this world is Concerned the face of Abraham Lincoln was Coverd to be Sean No More on Earth.” and thought he was the last person who saw Lincoln. He could not have known at that moment that this was fully untrue.

The coffin was again opened on Dec. 21, 1865. My question: who opened the coffin?

In the book "Myths after Lincoln" by Lloyd Lewis (1891-1949), published 1940, on page 265 is stated that plumber Leon F. Hopkins made an opening in the lead box on that date. But …. how could this be ??? Hopkins was born July 15, 1851 and was only 14 years (5 months and 6 days) old, still a child. Some accounts (internet) say that he was not a skilled plumber, but a “plumber’s assistant”. Why was it allowed that a young boy opened the lead lined coffin of AL? In my eyes that does not make any sense at all. Why is Lewis writing this? What was his source? I simply believe it can’t be true. But who did then open the coffin? Why is that not known?

Also, Lewis states in his book that Hopkins again opened AL’s coffin on Sept. 19, 1871. Hopkins was at that moment 20 years (2 months and 4 days) old. Still very young. I even don’t believe this too! George L. Cashman (custodian Lincoln Tomb, 1951-1975) wrote in a letter (dated May 25, 1970) to Mr. Bert Sheldon (the man who uncovered in 1971 that Samuel Elder closed AL’s coffin on May 5, 1865): “…When the time approached for the dedication of the Tomb it was found that the metalic casket would not fit into the marble sarcophagus which had been prepared to receive it. The body was then placed in a lead lined red cedar coffin, on October 9, 1874, and the lead lining was sealed by soldering by Col. A.J.Babcock”. So, Babcock and not Hopkins! But who is Col. A.J. Babcock? Why do we not know more about him?

As far as I know Hopkins did indeed open the coffin on April 14, 1887. It is well documented in written statements (I believe). And Hopkins was again present during the last viewing on Sept. 26, 1901, however it was his nephew Charles L. Wiley Sr. who did the work. So Hopkins claim that he was the “last person who saw Lincoln” seems (to me) not true.

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Is it possible to uncover the names (an more info) re. the plumbers who opened / and sealed the coffin air tight on the various dates?

I have no answers for you except to say that, given the child labor conditions in the U.S. and elsewhere in the mid-1800s, I don't find it hard to believe that a 15-year-old was qualified for and trusted with opening the coffin. He could very well have been apprenticed to a plumber for training while still 8-10 years old.

P.S. I knew Bert Sheldon back in the 1970s. He had been a police lieutenant with the Metropolitan Police Force in D.C. and was a leading Lincoln enthusiast who helped many researchers and was also instrumental in forming the Lincoln Group of D.C.

[GARY POPOLO]

Well I am be adding more confusion to your question but here is the information I found on Wikipedia. It seems that a young man by the name of Fleedwood Herndon Lindley was the last surviving person to look upon the face of Lincoln at his tomb in Oak Ridge Cemetery on 09/26/1901 Lindley was fourteen at the time. The story goes that Lindley was born in Illinois to Joseph Lindley and Julia Herndon. Joseph was a member of the Lincoln Guard of Honor assembled in February 1880 by John Carroll Power custodian of Lincolns tomb. This in response to the attempted theft of Lincoln's remains in 1876. The tomb underwent a massive reconstruction to satisfy their curiosity and lay to rest the rumors that his body was no longer there. The guard of honor decided to open Lincoln's coffin for a final inspection. On the morning of September 26, Lindley's teacher gave him a note from his father telling him to get on his bicycle to Oak Ridge Cemetery to witness a historic occasion. In an interview on January 29th. 1963 three days before death Lindley recalled what he had seen. Yes his face was chalky white his clothes were mildewed. I was allowed to hold one of the straps as we lowered the casket for the concrete to be poured. Lindley died in Springfield on February 1st. 1963 and is buried at Oak Ridge Cemetery not far from Lincoln's tomb. Hope this helps.

[loetar44]

(02-09-2015 09:02 PM)GARY POPOLO Wrote:  Well I am be adding more confusion to your question but here is the information I found on Wikipedia. It seems that a young man by the name of Fleedwood Herndon Lindley was the last surviving person to look upon the face of Lincoln at his tomb in Oak Ridge Cemetery on 09/26/1901 Lindley was fourteen at the time. The story goes that Lindley was born in Illinois to Joseph Lindley and Julia Herndon. Joseph was a member of the Lincoln Guard of Honor assembled in February 1880 by John Carroll Power custodian of Lincolns tomb. This in response to the attempted theft of Lincoln's remains in 1876. The tomb underwent a massive reconstruction to satisfy their curiosity and lay to rest the rumors that his body was no longer there. The guard of honor decided to open Lincoln's coffin for a final inspection. On the morning of September 26, Lindley's teacher gave him a note from his father telling him to get on his bicycle to Oak Ridge Cemetery to witness a historic occasion. In an interview on January 29th. 1963 three days before death Lindley recalled what he had seen. Yes his face was chalky white his clothes were mildewed. I was allowed to hold one of the straps as we lowered the casket for the concrete to be poured. Lindley died in Springfield on February 1st. 1963 and is buried at Oak Ridge Cemetery not far from Lincoln's tomb. Hope this helps.

I know the story of Fleedwood Lindley and I do believe he was indeed the last LIVING person who saw Lincoln. However, there is a difference between the LAST person and the LAST LIVING person who saw Lincoln.

The last person is the plumber who soldered in place the piece of lead which covered AL’s face for the last time. Each mentioned year (1865, 1871, 1874, 1887, 1901) they thought it was the “final identification”. We now know that on Sept. 26 ,1901 the coffin was opened for the last time. So the plumber who closed the coffin on Sept. 26, 1901 was the LAST person who looked upon the face of AL.

According to me that person was plumber Charles L. Wiley, nephew of Hopkins. Wiley did the closing work in 1901 (not Hopkins, according to Wiley’s only son Charles L. Wiley Jr.). Wiley Sr. died in 1944 (he was 72 in 1938, so born c. 1866) making (the other plumber) Hopkins the “last (LIVING, because Wiley was the LAST) man to see Abraham Lincoln’s face”, as was claimed by his daughter Grace Hopkins Parmelee and others.

Hopkins died June 18, 1946. If all the persons who viewed the remains of AL were dead by 1946, then Hopkins was indeed the LAST LIVING who viewed the remains. That seems not the case. There were different persons stating that they were present at the last viewing and were the last (living) witnesses.

Fleedwood Lindley tells of the incident himself and he had a good recollection of it, and there is all reason to believe him. He died Feb. 1, 1963 and there are now no persons alive who were present at the viewings. So Fleedwood Lindley was indeed the LAST LIVING person in 1963. But he was certainly not the LAST.

Keeping in mind that most of the references are secondary with respect to the men who closed Lincoln's coffin and were at that moment the LAST person to see AL, it’s my believe that:

May 4, 1865: S. S. Elder
Dec. 21, 1865 : unknown (not Hopkins)
Sept. 19, 1871: unknown (probably not Hopkins)
Oct. 9, 1874: Col. Babcock (who is he ?)
Apr. 14, 1887: Hopkins
Sept. 26, 1901: Wiley (probably not Hopkins)

---

(02-09-2015 07:53 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I have no answers for you except to say that, given the child labor conditions in the U.S. and elsewhere in the mid-1800s, I don't find it hard to believe that a 15-year-old was qualified for and trusted with opening the coffin. He could very well have been apprenticed to a plumber for training while still 8-10 years old.

P.S. I knew Bert Sheldon back in the 1970s. He had been a police lieutenant with the Metropolitan Police Force in D.C. and was a leading Lincoln enthusiast who helped many researchers and was also instrumental in forming the Lincoln Group of D.C.

In an interview on his 88th birthday (July 15, 1939) Hopkins said that his first interest has always been music. During the Civil War he and other children in his neighborhood marched around playing fifes and drums. When he was 14 years old, he began playing with Butler's band. His first job was July 4, 1865, at Elkhart. In 1870 he joined the German Reed band. So, I don’t believe that he was called in 1865 to the tomb to do plumber’s work as an “plumber’s assistant”. Hopkins was the son of Caleb Hopkins, a captain of the Second Illinois artillery in the Civil War, who had nothing to do with the plumber’s trade.

According to Hopkins (in the same interview) he was called to Oak Ridge cemetery from his plumbing and heating shop to open Lincoln’s coffin and to view the body with several members of the honorary guard on Sept. 14, 1887. He does not mention Dec. 21, 1865; Sept. 19, 1871 or Oct 9, 1874.

[loetar44]

" His first job was July 4, 1865, at Elkhart." If this is Elkhart,Logan county, Illinois, does this mean that Hopkins was not even living in Springfield in 1865?

[RJNorton]

(02-09-2015 09:02 PM)GARY POPOLO Wrote:  It seems that a young man by the name of Fleedwood Herndon Lindley was the last surviving person to look upon the face of Lincoln at his tomb in Oak Ridge Cemetery on 09/26/1901 Lindley was fourteen at the time.

(02-10-2015 07:36 AM)loetar44 Wrote:  I know the story of Fleedwood Lindley and I do believe he was indeed the last LIVING person who saw Lincoln.

I think the confusion may have come from George Cashman himself. According to Wikipedia: "Another man, George Cashman, claimed to be the last living person to have viewed the remains of Abraham Lincoln. In the last years of his life, George Cashman was the curator of the National Landmark in Springfield called "Lincoln's Tomb." He particularly enjoyed relating his story to the more than one million visitors to the site each year."

So was it Fleetwood Lindley or George Cashman?

Cashman's wife, Dorothy Moline Cashman, wrote a pamphlet entitled The Lincoln Tomb. It's small - only 25 pages - but packed with information. I have a copy. Dorothy's husband, George Cashman, was (at the time of her writing) curator of the tomb. Mrs. Cashman dedicated her pamphlet to her husband. On page 14 of The Lincoln Tomb Mrs. Cashman wrote, "At the time of his death in 1963 Fleetwood Lindley was the last living person to have looked upon Mr. Lincoln's face."

So George Cashman's wife admitted her husband was "embellishing" (or worse). So I do believe Fleetwood Lindley was indeed the last living person to see Abraham Lincoln.

[loetar44]

I reread Lloyd Lewis’ ”Myths After Lincoln” today, because he claimed that Leon P. Hopkins made the openings and closings of Lincoln’s lead lined coffin in 1865, 1871, 1887 and 1901. The last two I believe true, because that is documented. The first two I still doubt. Who convince me?

On page 288 Lewis wrote: “September 26, 1901. Only three of the Guard of Honor were left. They came. Thirty people, in all, some of them State officials, some townspeople, crowded Memorial Hall. Once more Leon P. Hopkins, the plumber, who had for fourteen years been calling himself the last man to see Lincoln's face, opened the casket, THIS TIME UNSOLDERING HIS OWN SOLDERING.” [capitals mine].

I only can conclude that this is in contradiction with what Lewis said on page 265, that Hopkins opened (and closed) the lead lined coffin in 1865 and 1871. Otherwise he had not written that in 1901 Hopkins unsoldered his OWN soldering for the FIRST time. Okay, Lincoln changed coffins in 1871, but It’s my understanding that he did not change the lead inner coffin. Lewis wrote (p. 265): “It had been seen that the mahogany casket in which he had been brought from Washington was breaking up, and the committee substituted for it an iron coffin, a curiously ill-fated iron coffin, into which the inner coffin of lead was transferred.” And on p. 266 re. October 9, 1874 when Lincoln’s coffin was placed in the white marble sarcophagus and he again changed coffins: “The iron coffin was too long by inches for its new home, and a new OUTER coffin—a red cedar box—was brought.”

[loetar44]

This is what I've found re. Col. A.J. Babcock, the man who soldered AL's coffin air tight on Oct. 9, 1874

1. He was a copper-smith and plumber in Springfield, Illinois. Please note the advertisement in the Sangamo Journal / Illinois State Journal, Volume 12, Number 160, 17 December 1859

   

2. He was a Colonel in the 7th Illinois Infantry Regiment. Please note the photo of their reunion at the Fair Grounds, October 2d, 1901. Col. A.J. Babcock is in the bottom row, 7th person from left.

   

3. He was pallbearer on Sept. 22, 1900 at the funeral of Gen. John A. McClernand. Please note the Indianapolis journal, Volume 50, Number 266, 23 September 1900

   

[loetar44]

Here

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi...d=29939081

is a portrait and an extended bio of Col. A. J. Babcock (Col. Andrew Jackson Babcock)

[Eva Elisabeth]

Kees, as always, your research and what you come up with is just amazing!

[Rsmyth]

I second that! Great stuff Kees!

[loetar44]

Thank you Eva and Rick !

Here are they: the plumbers who closed the coffin of Lincoln

   

top left: Samuel S. Elder (May 5, 1831 - Jan. 12, 1914)
top right: Leon P(utney) Hopkins (July 15, 1851 - June 18, 1946)
bottom left: A(ndrew) J(ackson) Babcock (July 12, 1830 - Jan 12, 1911)
bottom right: Charles L(eon) Willey Sr. (1866 - 1944)

All are buried at Oak Ridge Cemetery, except Willey (also spelled as Wiley) who is buried at the Masonic Cemetery at Coquille in Oregon (Willey left the plumbing business and in 1911 moved his family to Oregon).

Here is a nice photo of Hopkins and Willey:

   

If you are interested in the very interesting story of Samuel Elder, I've placed the story (pdf) at my box cloud. You can download it here:

https://app.box.com/s/nb6m7hitc2mgqkvcto8vwa5ztwx69wh5

Still searching for the answer on the question who the plumbers were on Dec. 21, 1865 and Sept 19, 1871. Not found any primary evidence that it was Hopkins.

[loetar44]

(02-10-2015 11:21 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  So was it Fleetwood Lindley or George Cashman?

Cashman's wife, Dorothy Moline Cashman, wrote a pamphlet entitled The Lincoln Tomb. It's small - only 25 pages - but packed with information. I have a copy. Dorothy's husband, George Cashman, was (at the time of her writing) curator of the tomb. Mrs. Cashman dedicated her pamphlet to her husband. On page 14 of The Lincoln Tomb Mrs. Cashman wrote, "At the time of his death in 1963 Fleetwood Lindley was the last living person to have looked upon Mr. Lincoln's face."

So George Cashman's wife admitted her husband was "embellishing" (or worse). So I do believe Fleetwood Lindley was indeed the last living person to see Abraham Lincoln.

Cashman was born in Boston, Massachusetts on December 27, 1897, so on Sept 26, 1901 he was 3 years, 8 months old. That makes "his story" completely odd.

[loetar44]

Just found that there was a THIRD plumber present at the last opening of Lincoln's coffin: Henry B. McVeigh. It's just late now (11:45 pm), so I come tomorrow with photos, a clipping and more. McVeigh assisted Hopkins and Willey.

[loetar44]

There were three plumbers present during the final interment of President Abraham Lincoln's remains at the Lincoln monument. Leon P. Hopkins and Charles L. Willey were discussed in above posts. The third was Henry B(ishop) McVeigh, living at 413 Monroe Street, Springfield. He was born Nov. 25, 1861 at Springfield and died at the ripe age of 100 in Valhalla, North Carolina, Jan 1, 1962. He was son of Benjamin Franklin McVeigh and Eleanor Prudence Bishop.

There is proof that McVeigh was indeed present in Lincoln Tomb’s Memorial Hall, on Sept 26, 1901 for the final identification, because he signed the Tomb’s register that day (Thursday Sept. 26, 1901). There are 22 names of witnesses, who gathered at 08:00 am, 16 of them are depicted on the famous photo which was taken outside the tomb after the identification. The last 5 signatures on this “list of attendees” are: Ross Culver (Culver Construction Co. who did the reconstruction of the tomb; he was de 24 year old son of Col. James S. Culver, also in attendance), the plumbers McVeigh, Hopkins and Willey, and custodian Col. Edward S. Johnson. If you are interested in the other 17 let me know, I have the complete “list of attendees” here.

   

McVeigh said that he was called upon (together with Hopkins and Willey) to cut away the lead covering and that he supplied the sheet lead for resealing the coffin. Here are three clippings with the story of McVeigh.

   

   

   

And here is McVeigh and a photo of his grave (Portland Memorial Mausoleum, Portland, Oregon)

   

   

McVeigh's claim that he was the last living man to have seen the face of Lincoln is not true, because we know that that honor was for Fleedwood Lindley, who died 1 Feb, 1963.