Sons and parents

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Linda! You have so much wonderful knowledge of the Seward family and I cannot wait to read the Fanny bio that's coming.

Hi Roger, thanks for the compliment but the great majority of Lincoln/Civil War things I've learned I've picked up right here on this Forum. And yes that is exactly the excerpt I remember reading about WH using a strap on his kids.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-08-2015 12:51 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Thanks Linda! You have so much wonderful knowledge of the Seward family

I totally agree and couldn't word it better - thanks for sharing your knowledge, Linda!

[Linda Anderson]

Thank you so much, Toia & Eva!

[RJNorton]

I have an "unusual" question. Mary Lincoln's dressmaker and friend, in the White House, Elizabeth Keckly, wrote about something she heard and saw after Willie's death in 1862. Mrs. Keckly said she overheard Abraham take Mary by the arm, lead her over to a White House window, point to an insane asylum in the distance, and tell her, "Mother, do you see that large white building on the hill yonder? Try and control your grief, or it will drive you mad, and we may have to send you there."

My question assumes Mrs. Keckly saw and heard correctly. If true, I doubt Abraham was really being serious, but I don't know that with absolute certainty. (Was it Laurie who once said she didn't feel there was an asylum that could be seen from the White House?)

Does anyone know if Abraham discussed his concern with Robert? Or could Mrs. Keckly have told Robert about this at some time when he was not at Harvard?

The reason I ask is I am wondering that if Robert knew of this (incident as described by Mrs. Keckly) whether it could have influenced him when he caused his mother to stand trial for insanity in 1875. I am just wondering if the knowledge of what Abraham said in 1862 could have lingered in the back of his mind and helped give him confidence to do what he did 13 years later (knowing that he felt his father may have considered similar).

Obviously the situations in 1862 and 1875 were completely different, but I am still curious if anyone has an opinion on this.

[Eva Elisabeth]

I, too, wonder what A. L. would have thought about Robert's conduct and actions regarding the insanity affair. Personally this is what I feel:

If A. L. said this to Mary I think he was most likely kidding/exaggerating to "wake her up" by "shocking" her. I don't believe he seriously would ever have done this. Thus I don't believe he told this Robert or had even discussed it with him. Despite, would he have discussed such with Robert, to whom he obviously wasn't very close? "After" Joshua Speed, did he ever discuss similar private life decisions with anyone (despite with Mary perhaps to some extent)?

Maybe E. Keckley indeed told Robert of this incident, and Robert took the teasing for serious (as I believe he had no sense of humor). I consider it possible that in this case Robert talked himself into having sort of his father's consent.

In any case, what makes Robert's deed the worst is the way he acted - he kidnapped Mary and prepared and manipulated everything in a way that she practically had no chance. Even if the words Ms. Keckley heart were meant serious, I personally doubt A. L. would ever have approved to take action the mean, unfair way Robert chose.

And - did her later dealing with life and circumstances prove him right? No! She was well able to care for herself, her finances, even in Europe (as a single traveling women in those days!), and never attempted to harm herself.

[L Verge]

Given the "taboos" of the day concerning even discussing mental illness within one's own family, I have often questioned Mrs. Keckly's propriety in making that incident public (if she did). And, although a confidante of Mrs. Lincoln, I don't think she had the right to discuss it with Robert at any time - unless he coerced her into doing so with the pledge that his mother would receive true help. I have a great deal of respect for Mrs. Keckly for her own deeds in life, but as far as discussing the Lincolns' private life, she basically was a domestic for the family. Her writings have contributed a great deal to our knowledge of the personal/private side of the family, but I question her "right" to make it public. Frankly, I wish we had less of this tell-all journalism in our lives today so that the K family and Brangelinas would fade into the background.

As for Mr. Lincoln, I too believe that he would have made the comment about the asylum in order to tell Mary how serious her depression was becoming. I think he would have sought private help and companionship if Mary had required it. In the case of Robert, I think his personality (and probably the nagging of his wife) worked against Mary Lincoln. At least she was placed in a respectable treatment center instead of a run-of-the-mill insane asylum.

[Gene C]

Here is a quote from an earlier post regarding the book "Mrs. Abraham Lincoln", by W A Evans.
A quote from William Stoddard, one of President Lincoln's private secretary's
"At first it was not easy to understand why a lady could one day be so kindly, considerate, so generous, so thoughtful, and so hopeful could upon another day appear so unreasonable, so irritable, so despondent, even so niggardly, and so prone to see the wrong side of men, women and events. It is easier to understand it all and to deal with it after a few words with an eminent medical practitioner."

'This can only mean that some time prior to 1864, a physician recognized Mrs. Lincoln's trouble and told Stoddard what it was, and that thereafter he was able to recognize the limits of her responsibility. Could others have known as much as Stoddard did, history would have been kinder to Mary Lincoln.'

--- If Stoddard knew this, Lincoln knew it too! ---
What a terrible burden President Lincoln had to bear, with all of the other difficulties he had to deal with.

It is my understanding, from the little I have read, the place Mrs. Lincoln went to following her insanity trial was more like a rest home.
I thought the treatment she received was more like what someone would get from having a nervous breakdown than the treatment given to someone who might injure themselves or others. I think Robert acted in a responsible manner. It might have been handled in a more compassionate way, but that's the advantage of hindsight.

[STS Lincolnite]

(01-10-2015 07:42 PM)L Verge Wrote:  As for Mr. Lincoln, I too believe that he would have made the comment about the asylum in order to tell Mary how serious her depression was becoming. I think he would have sought private help and companionship if Mary had required it. In the case of Robert, I think his personality (and probably the nagging of his wife) worked against Mary Lincoln. At least she was placed in a respectable treatment center instead of a run-of-the-mill insane asylum.

I think Laurie's comment is right on point. Lincoln could have pointed out any building in the distance and called it an asylum (whether it really was or not) just to get Mary's attention. Private help would have been much preferred (both clinically and politically) to the more public admission to an asylum.

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(01-10-2015 08:32 PM)Gene C Wrote:  A quote from William Stoddard, one of President Lincoln's private secretary's
"At first it was not easy to understand why a lady could one day be so kindly, considerate, so generous, so thoughtful, and so hopeful could upon another day appear so unreasonable, so irritable, so despondent, even so niggardly, and so prone to see the wrong side of men, women and events. It is easier to understand it all and to deal with it after a few words with an eminent medical practitioner."

'This can only mean that some time prior to 1864, a physician recognized Mrs. Lincoln's trouble and told Stoddard what it was, and that thereafter he was able to recognize the limits of her responsibility. Could others have known as much as Stoddard did, history would have been kinder to Mary Lincoln.'

I wonder if the "sometime prior to 1864" referred to was in 1862 after Willie's death (the time frame Eva referred to in her post). Although she seems to have had issues for some time before that, that particular incident seemed to really set her off and maybe to the point that an "eminent medical practitioner" was in fact consulted - probably informally.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-10-2015 08:32 PM)Gene C Wrote:  I thought the treatment she received was more like what someone would get from having a nervous breakdown than the treatment given to someone who might injure themselves or others. I think Robert acted in a responsible manner.

Whether rest home or not, the point is that she was confined to live there without her consent, and in fact she was a prisoner and not a patient by her own will and decision in that institution. Robert should have discussed a form of professional treatment for a nervous breakdown or other solutions with her in advance and should have announced he would seek this solution otherwise (like his father did in case the comment he made was partly meant serious). I cannot see anything honorable about the way he achieved his goal (which IMO first of all was self-serving) depriving her of her liberty, freedom of choice and self-determination without discussing the matter with her in advance and seeking her agreement for such "professional treatment". But no, without giving her any warning or chance to choose and prepare a defence he had her arrested and tried like a criminal. Would you like to be treated like this - by your own offspring? This should have only been the very last option.

[LincolnToddFan]

[I have an "unusual" question. Mary Lincoln's dressmaker and friend, in the White House, Elizabeth Keckly, wrote about something she heard and saw after Willie's death in 1862. Mrs. Keckly said she overheard Abraham take Mary by the arm, lead her over to a White House window, point to an insane asylum in the distance, and tell her, "Mother, do you see that large white building on the hill yonder? Try and control your grief, or it will drive you mad, and we may have to send you there."

My question assumes Mrs. Keckly saw and heard correctly. If true, I doubt Abraham was really being serious, but I don't know that with absolute certainty. (Was it Laurie who once said she didn't feel there was an asylum that could be seen from the White House?)

Does anyone know if Abraham discussed his concern with Robert? Or could Mrs. Keckly have told Robert about this at some time when he was not at Harvard?]// quote


Hi Roger,

This is an excellent question and gives us a lot to think about. I tend to agree with you and Laurie and Scott and Eva. I cannot see AL ever forcibly having his wife committed. I agree that he was probably trying to send her a "jolt". As far as any convos between Keckly and Robert about Mary's worsening emotional/mental state I tend to believe "no". Despite Keckly's intimacy with Mary personally, Robert had a very "correct" view of the boundaries between servants and employers and that attitude might have been magnified by the fact that Keckly was a Black woman. She was treated as a member of the family only up to a point. As Laurie pointed out she was, at the end of the day, a domestic.

Robert came home to be with his family for a time after Willie died and would not have needed anyone to tell him about his mother's breakdown and desperate grief. He saw it all first hand. Remember that after Willie's private viewing by the Lincoln family before the funeral Mary had to be personally assisted up the stairs back to her room by AL, and she did not return downstairs for the funeral. Robert was doubtless privy to many personal conversations and harrowing scenes within the family in the awful days and weeks that followed Willie's death. His aunt Elizabeth Edwards-to whom he was extremely close-was also with the family at that time. There is no doubt in my mind that Mary was "Topic A" between Aunt Lizzie, AL, and Robert during that time. But unlike Keckly, Robert would never have made those private conversations public, never.

I remain torn on what action AL would have taken if his wife had continued to spiral out of control after the WH years, as I personally believe she was becoming progressively worse at the end of his life. He might have brought her back to Springfield and done his best to care for her himself. He might have sought family help as he consistently tried to do in the WH. It's heartbreaking the way he was always seeming to plead with her sisters to come and stay with her. But Mary alienated them one by one.

Which brings me to RTL. When I read the details of what lead him to have Mary committed, I do understand why he did it. His final solution of a personal companion for his mother had fallen through. She could not live with his family. She was becoming a danger to herself. He could not ignore the fact that she was wandering the streets and attempting to leap from her hotel window. But I agree with Eva. It was the WAY he went about it that has darkened his reputation. He paid doctors to commit perjury and to testify without even examining his mother! There is evidence that her breakdown coincided with the 10th anniversary of the assassination...would not a skilled doctor have been able to realize this after a careful examination of the patient? Perhaps RTL could have persuaded his mother of the necessity of a "rest" at the sanitarium. As Laurie has pointed out it wasn't a run of the mill Victorian hellhole of an asylum. It actually sounded rather pleasant. Robert-along with help from Elizabeth Edwards- might have first tried to persuade Mary to enter such a place voluntarily until the crisis had passed.

Because in fact it DID pass eventually. There is no evidence of anything other than mild eccentricity, grief and loneliness during MTL's subsequent time in Europe after she was released.

[RJNorton]

A great big THANK YOU to everyone who replied!!

After I made the post above I thought of another way Robert may have found out about Abraham's supposed comment to Mary about the asylum. This is because it was in Lizzie's 1868 book that revealed intimate conversations, letters, details, etc. of the Lincoln family. Laurie, you asked if Lizzie really made the incident public - yes, she did. Both Mary and Robert were furious with this book. According to Jean Baker, Mary read the book. But I do not know if Robert did. I have read that he had the book suppressed (or attempted to), but I do not know if he did this after reading the book or simply hearing about its contents. Has anyone ever read whether or not Robert actually read the book?

[Eva Elisabeth]

Gene and Toia, I do understand Robert needed to take action and felt the need to do so, and on that the basic decision to take action was a responsible one by Robert. If he hadn't done anything he would probably have ended up as the bad guy (or son), too. And sure the entire situation was not easy for him and might have taken him to his limits. Well, yes, it's always easier to judge from "outside" and by hindsight, so I might have been too hard in my judgement.

(01-11-2015 02:46 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  A great big THANK YOU to everyone who replied!!

After I made the post above I thought of another way Robert may have found out about Abraham's supposed comment to Mary about the asylum. This is because it was in Lizzie's 1868 book that revealed intimate conversations, letters, details, etc. of the Lincoln family. Laurie, you asked if Lizzie really made the incident public - yes, she did. Both Mary and Robert were furious with this book. According to Jean Baker, Mary read the book. But I do not know if Robert did. I have read that he had the book suppressed (or attempted to), but I do not know if he did this after reading the book or simply hearing about its contents. Has anyone ever read whether or not Robert actually read the book?

Roger, this is such a logic and smart thought! From what Charles Lachmann writes on pp.132/133 of "The Last Lincolns" I believe Robert did read the book , although - I'm sorry this doesn't answer your question - he doesn't literally claim this. But as Robert managed to threaten the publishers so severely that they let the book disappear from the market I assume he exacly knew the content of the book to reason his claims and case.

(01-11-2015 12:40 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As Laurie has pointed out it wasn't a run of the mill Victorian hellhole of an asylum.

Yes, but what kind of asylum was the Cook County Hospital of the Illinois State Hospital for the insane? This was the one Robert originally pleaded to have his mother confined to according to the petition he filled in the "Application to Try the Question of Insanity", the form required for the court. (The one Elizabeth Packard was confined to.),

---

I have two further questions, and thank you for any comments:

1. It was quite easy for men to get their wives committed to an asylum, although Illinois was ahead of most other states in at least requiring a trial (which could easily have been manipulated as Mary's case proved). What about men? Could men, too, be likewise committed against their consent (on behalf of their families)?

2. Re: "Because in fact it DID pass eventually. There is no evidence of anything other than mild eccentricity, grief and loneliness during MTL's subsequent time in Europe after she was released" - I wonder why. Was it the "shocking" experience of the insanity affair and her fear Robert would try to commit her again? Was it simply a matter of time passing by and temporal distance to the events? On the other hand she also obviously didn't suffer from migraines anymore.

[Eva Elisabeth]

(01-11-2015 12:40 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  ...as I personally believe she was becoming progressively worse at the end of his life.

Why do you feel so? Her depressions or her spending habits? Didn't she participate more actively in life again and even wear other colors than black? (Well, she sure was determined to get her husband reelected because of her debts).

[RJNorton]

Eva, I came across this article as it somewhat deals with what you were talking about. Hope this helps, at least a little:

Lunacy in the 19th Century: Women’s Admission to Asylums in United States of America

Katherine Pouba and Ashley Tianen, co-authors
pp. 95-103

Oshkosh Scholar, Volume I, April 2006

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://minds.wisconsin.edu/bitstream/han...sequence=1

[Eva Elisabeth]

Thank you, Roger. As the article doesn't mention any men being treated the same way, can we assume the option to have them confined as easily as women had never existed?

I've tried to find out and will again when I have more time what kind of asylums the one I posted above was where Robert originally intended to get Mary into. I wonder if he had checked it out in advance. Obviously a state institution and heavily overcrowded.