Threaded Mode | Linear Mode

RJNorton · 10-30-2014, 02:33 PM

In addition to Eva's questions I am curious if anything is said in the book regarding the possibility Abraham Lincoln and Kate Chase danced with each other in Columbus, Ohio, in 1859.

L Verge · 10-30-2014, 04:30 PM

(10-30-2014 12:59 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: All I read about Kate Chase and her father implied or explicitly suggested she was the striving engine behind his career and the one who "made" him. Do you think the same, Laurie and Genna?

I'm not sure that Kate "made" her father a politician, but I think she was the person with the talent and drive to help him achieve greatness when he lacked the same qualities.

Roger, I do not remember reading about Kate and Lincoln dancing together in 1859, but I'll go back and check. I do remember that one thing Mary Lincoln never forgave her for was turning the tables on her.

Mary invited Kate to meet with her - meaning in the White House. Kate reversed the situation by responding to the effect that she (Kate) would be happy to entertain Mrs. Lincoln AT HER HOUSE!

I think I would take insult at that...

I received a very nice email at work from the author of American Queen, Mr. Oller, thanking me for my kind words about his book on this forum.

LincolnToddFan · 10-30-2014, 08:50 PM

[Mary invited Kate to meet with her - meaning in the White House. Kate reversed the situation by responding to the effect that she (Kate) would be happy to entertain Mrs. Lincoln AT HER HOUSE!]// quote

Considering that Kate was being introduced to the wife of the president of the U.S. for the very first time, the reply by the younger woman does indeed sound a bit impertinent and presumptuous. Perhaps that is not the way Kate intended it but I don't blame Mary for being taken aback. Undecided

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 10-30-2014 09:30 PM by Gencor.)

(10-29-2014 06:31 PM)L Verge Wrote: Ah, Genna, I think you and I are going to be kindred spirits! I had fallen for the "traditional" history of bad-mouthing Kate Chase because I had not taken the time to study her from any viewpoint other than what we read about in her relationship with Mary Lincoln. I happen to think that Mrs. Lincoln has been maligned more than necessary by male historians, so I was easily prepared to dislike Kate.

After reading American Queen, I came away with the feeling that Kate was far superior to Mrs. Lincoln in many ways. She had the fortitude, education, and emotional control that any woman in politics should have -- and what (except for education) Mrs. Lincoln lacked. Frankly, I think Kate would have been a far better political candidate than either her father or her twerp of a husband! She had innate political skills.

Despite her strength, she doesn't come across as the self-centered Scarlett O'Hara of her day either. She spent her life working for men she loved and got kicked in the teeth by them. The chapter about how she had to escape with her children from the prison of her own home is as heart-wrenching as it gets.

If Mary Todd and Kate Chase had both grown up in the same town and attended the same boarding school, I bet they would have been good friends. If only Kate could have counseled Mrs. Lincoln later in life on how to maintain her dignity...

Yes, Verge, we are kindred. So nice to post with you.

I have done so much research on Kate that I feel that historians have all been very unfair to this remarkable woman. Down through all the history written and rewritten and copied and recopied, they have all done the same thing. They have told Sprague's story, not Kate's. Oller has done a good job of introducing to everyone the real Kate, but there is just so much more. Yes, I do agree that she was lightyears ahead of Mrs. Lincoln. Mrs. Lincoln didn't have the natural "feel" for what it took to live and be in the kind of power that it required to truly be a President's wife. I had great empathy for Mary Todd but I never felt that she was the best advisor or supporter of Mr. Lincoln and yet I also felt that Mr. Lincoln was not only destined to be our Civil War President but was truly the best person for that job.

Kate, rather than William or Salmon, if the time for women would not have been so restrictive, would have been a much better candidate for the Senate. I also believe that Kate, Salmon, Mary Todd and President Lincoln were all exactly what and who they needed to be, at that time. I just view William as a spoiler, a sort of jinx of fate.

The beauty of Kate's life versus the downfall of William Sprague was, to me, her real story. He lost everything and ended up with no power and no money and was reduced to serving in Narragansett as something as lowly as a city council president, to which they voted him out after a second term and the suicide of his son. Oddly, he was wholly under the control of his horrible wife and her horrible sister. They reminded me of the "Gabor" sisters! LOL.

Kate, on the other hand, raised her daughters and never lost her power. While she may not have had money, one letter, one note, could move power like no other. Lincoln was not the only president who trusted her advice and judgement and I believe to this day that was her biggest connection to Mr. Conkling. She could be objective where Mrs. Lincoln could never master that. It was Mrs Lincoln's biggest downfall.

Frankly, I believe that Mrs. Lincoln may have felt that Kate was her competition, but I don't think that Kate felt that Mrs. Lincoln was any competition for her at all. But more, I believe that she just always felt that she could do it better and she probably would have, if she would have had the chance.

Just as I have come to the conclusion that historians only copied the tabloid press to record Kate's history, I hold them responsible for totally missing the point about this fabulous woman in our history. They let William Sprague define Kate and it wasn't until she filed for her divorce that they even had a window into the real life of horror that he led her into that marriage. They judged her. That was so wrong!

This was a woman who aspired for success and was prepared to handle it. Its just sad that the men in her life were not. I am amazed at the strength and strong state of mind that it must have taken for her to move forward after living under the abuse and constraints of an idiot like William Sprague and the insistence of her father to take such abuse. She raised her girls and grieved her son and never complained. It was her life and she was going to do what she could. I have come to admire this woman of our history so much and her example is for women of every age. I am just amazed that it has taken this long to learn the real truth of her story.

(10-30-2014 04:30 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(10-30-2014 12:59 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: All I read about Kate Chase and her father implied or explicitly suggested she was the striving engine behind his career and the one who "made" him. Do you think the same, Laurie and Genna?

I'm not sure that Kate "made" her father a politician, but I think she was the person with the talent and drive to help him achieve greatness when he lacked the same qualities.

Roger, I do not remember reading about Kate and Lincoln dancing together in 1859, but I'll go back and check. I do remember that one thing Mary Lincoln never forgave her for was turning the tables on her.

Mary invited Kate to meet with her - meaning in the White House. Kate reversed the situation by responding to the effect that she (Kate) would be happy to entertain Mrs. Lincoln AT HER HOUSE!

I think I would take insult at that...

I received a very nice email at work from the author of American Queen, Mr. Oller, thanking me for my kind words about his book on this forum.

The ambition was on the part of her father. While it wasn't spoken of, most women of Kate's era were all ambitious for their husbands, in one way or another. As I have stated, I don't think that Kate viewed Mrs. Lincoln in the same way that Mrs. Lincoln viewed Kate Chase. Mrs. Lincoln had other problems that really had nothing to do with Kate Chase. To be fair, I think that Kate sensed that Mrs. Lincoln was not well meaning with her invitation and so she reacted accordingly. However, I don't think that Kate meant it in any arrogant manner but rather to return to Mrs. Lincoln what she felt Mrs. Lincoln's real message was to her. Mrs. Lincoln was very aware of the political ambitions of Salmon Chase but unlike Mrs. Lincoln, President Lincoln handled Salmon with a very fine kid glove that Mrs. Lincoln really just didn't know how to put to use herself. Kate did. Mrs. Lincoln was on the attack from the start. It left Kate with an offense instead of a defense. Kate was very bright that way. Kate knew what it meant to cultivate power and powerful people and she set about the business of doing just that. Mrs. Lincoln, who was really in a position of power, just didn't understand how to make that work for her, the way that Kate did.

Kate strong minded, intelligent and capable. She did what had to be done and she had an unbelievable strength of will.

Mrs. Lincoln and Kate Chase were two very different women with two very different mind sets. Under different circumstances, I believe that they could have been great friends and supportive political women.

Eva Elisabeth · 10-31-2014, 03:16 AM

Re: "Mary invited Kate to meet with her - meaning in the White House. Kate reversed the situation by responding to the effect that she (Kate) would be happy to entertain Mrs. Lincoln AT HER HOUSE! I think I would take insult at that..."

May I ask why? I know etiquette wouldn't have allowed Mary to go, but I so far I can't see why this was so insulting (Toia mentioned the difference in age - is this why you would take insult at that?)

So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

Gene C · 10-31-2014, 07:39 AM

So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?
[/quote]

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.

Eva Elisabeth · 10-31-2014, 02:13 PM

Re: "...she also had the better man to support and encourage." - excellent point, Gene!

Eva Elisabeth · 10-31-2014, 03:15 PM

Re: "I received a very nice email at work from the author of American Queen, Mr. Oller, thanking me for my kind words about his book on this forum."

That's wonderful, Laurie! It's amazing how many authors have reacted (positively) to their books being discussed here. On the other hand I believe the forum members' reviews are (due to their background knowledge on the matters) more reliable than many on Amazon (not yours on Amazon, Laurie!)

L Verge · 10-31-2014, 04:10 PM

(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.
[/quote]

Perhaps one singular reason that Sprague turned out to be such a cad is that he was born to the manor - meaning that he was born into wealth and political power because of the hard work of family members who came before. Spoiled rich kid syndrome, IMO. He then lost some wealth because of family infighting, and it didn't help that Kate's half-sister was married to part of the familial enemies.

Linda Anderson · 10-31-2014, 05:07 PM

Fanny Seward gives the following account of her first meeting with Kate Chase.

April 9, 1862

"Father sent word that he wished for us to go with him to see a new Revenue cutter, Mr. Chase had invited the President also - & Miss Chase was to be there. It was the worst day I almost ever saw at this season - snow on the ground, liquid mud in the streets, & alternate hail and rain falling - we went in the close[d] carriage, Father, Anna and I - The vessel was at the Navy Yard..."

They went onboard the vessel and met Mr. and Miss Chase.

"We waited some time for the President, who sent a regret...I was sorry he did not [come] for I think it would have done him good, he keeps so much confined. But we had a very pleasant time, & were in the best place possible for such a bad day. This cabin was charming - the furniture as superb as any that of any drawing room - it was carpeted with brussels - there was a center table, covered with a crimson cloth embroidered with gold colored silk - upon which upon a salver to match stood a handsome plated ice-pitcher. Over it swung a bronze lamp. Besides the port holes there was a little cupola - of glass, to give light, the chairs were covered with the costliest silk, or satin covering, I don't know the name of it...I liked Miss Chase very much, she is very pretty, beautiful eyes & long silken lashes, both are dark, her hair light and wavy - a sweet voice - a fine figure dressed in excellent taste - a drab ottoman cloth, perfectly fitting, & the grave color set off by a dainty scarlet cravet bow - She seemed pleasant & good natured - She has a turned up nose, & what would disfigure almost any one else, is beauty with her..."

Sensitivity & Civil War: The Selected Diaries and Papers, 1858-1866, of Frances Adeline (Fanny) Seward, Patricia Carley Johnson

L Verge · 10-31-2014, 06:30 PM

(10-31-2014 04:10 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.

Perhaps one singular reason that Sprague turned out to be such a cad is that he was born to the manor - meaning that he was born into wealth and political power because of the hard work of family members who came before. Spoiled rich kid syndrome, IMO. He then lost some wealth because of family infighting, and it didn't help that Kate's half-sister was married to part of the familial enemies.
[/quote]

Somehow, Gene's comments got swallowed up when I posted my reply to him. Please note that only the last paragraph is by me.

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 10-31-2014 09:50 PM by Gencor.)

I think that Sprague's biggest problem was that he suffered from Bi-Polar disorder and he used alcohol to self medicate. No one had ever heard of anything like Bi-Polar disorder in that era and I believe that as his mental disorder progressed, he became much worse. I have my doubts that Sprague every really stopped his drinking and his erratic, sometimes euphoric behavior. I think that Sprague was making alot of money very quickly and growing his company just as quickly. That was what eventually led to his downfall, however, if not for those horrible scenes in the Senate, he might have been able to save his fortune. Sadly for Sprague, by this time, his enemies were devastated and his wife had finally realized that he was hopeless, even though, she did take at least one last try, to which he turned a complete deaf ear. Sprague brought about his own downfall, the downfall of his family business and the ruin of most of his family's fortune. Even the people and the state of Rhode Island felt the financial ruin brought about by this erratic, self absorbed, alcoholic idiot. What just incensed me about this man was that he never felt any remorse for any of it. Not for the abuse that he put his wife through or the terrible, horrible things that he said in those Senate speeches, or his son's suicide and not even ever contributing to the financial support of his little girls. Sprague was a pathetic man and it is confusing to hear that he was a happy man in his second marriage with a woman who, along with her sister, managed to get control of his finances in ways that Kate Chase would have been too much of a lady to even think of and that, like a self fulfilling prophecy, he actually did end up marrying a real, true to life, golddigger! A woman who got control of just about every penny he had left. It wasn't as much as she thought, but she had no problem getting control of what little he did have. Kate didn't marry Sprague for his money, but his second wife surely did.

(10-31-2014 04:10 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.

Perhaps one singular reason that Sprague turned out to be such a cad is that he was born to the manor - meaning that he was born into wealth and political power because of the hard work of family members who came before. Spoiled rich kid syndrome, IMO. He then lost some wealth because of family infighting, and it didn't help that Kate's half-sister was married to part of the familial enemies.
[/quote]

When Kate was first introduced to Sprague, she has inquired about him to John Hay and he told her very honestly that Sprague was basically "much ado about nothing!" LOL! He told her that Sprague was a rich kid who basically was a big do nothing, flash in the pan kind of guy. Sprague actually, in later years, because of his jealousy of Kate, came between Kate and her long friendship with Hay just as he has with so many of her friends and even her sister.

(10-31-2014 04:10 PM)L Verge Wrote:
(10-31-2014 07:39 AM)Gene C Wrote: So if you compared Mary and Kate - who was more skilled in politics, and who was more influential on a political career? Mary on her husbands, or Kate on her father's?

That's a good question. I'll say Mary. In spite of her personality quirks, Abraham made it to become President. But then in my opinion, she also had the better man to support and encourage.

Kate certainly had her charms and abilities, but I'm not so sure she was the better judge of people, but maybe a bit more discreet than Mary. Anyone recommend a good book about Salmon Chase? (other than Team of Rivals - which is very good)

I had always thought that Kate married Sprague to help get financing for her fathers run for the presidency. Sprague has given me the impression of someone who rose to power and money to quickly and didn't know how to properly deal with it. He let those things control his life, instead of the other way around. He ended up with the usual results.

Perhaps one singular reason that Sprague turned out to be such a cad is that he was born to the manor - meaning that he was born into wealth and political power because of the hard work of family members who came before. Spoiled rich kid syndrome, IMO. He then lost some wealth because of family infighting, and it didn't help that Kate's half-sister was married to part of the familial enemies.
[/quote]

As far as political strength, I don't think that Mary Todd was that strong. She was the wife of the President, but she just really wasn't skilled at all in how to use that power. Kate, on the other hand, did prove handily, that she knew exactly how to make that power work for her father. In the case of Salmon, he was what he was meant to be and Lincoln was what he was meant to be. As for Mary Todd, she was the wife of the President but she just didn't have the skill to be objective for her husband. Lincoln was very skilled in that way and he humored Mary Todd quite a bit. He was kind to her, but he was his own counsel, in the end. Salmon was a brilliant man. Capable and at an early point in his career, might have been a good president, but I honestly don't think that he would have been a great President, even with the right timing and Kate's great skill at entertaining power. In many ways, Kate was his strength, just as she was for Sprague and for Conkling. Sadly, Kate was stronger and greater than the men in her life. Not so unusual for that era. Mary Todd suffered from depression and I believe that was what held her back. She was given to uncontrollable, angry fits and while she knew her husband's enemies, she couldn't be objective in her counsel to him. Mary Todd carried the burden of grief throughout her husband's public office as President. That had to be a difficult burden on her. I think that it played into alot of her behavior during that time.

I don't know how this happened but my posts that I wanted to answer ended up under the wrong quote so I hope that when you read the last two posts by me, you will please understand. Wink

Eva Elisabeth · 11-01-2014, 06:18 AM

Great post, Genna (and don't worry about the posts' current strange behavior.
...we do understand!)!

L Verge · 11-01-2014, 09:42 AM

Your assessments of Mary Lincoln, Kate, Sprague the Sot are really well thought-out, Genna. Thank you so much.

In an earlier post, you brought up the subject of Sprague's devious second wife. I knew nothing about her until reading American Queen. Do you have any more juicy details on her background as well as her marriage to Sprague? Also, what about Mary Viall, the longtime mistress that Sprague insisted on rubbing in Kate's face - and the public's for that matter?

Gencor · (This post was last modified: 11-01-2014 06:59 PM by Gencor.)

(11-01-2014 09:42 AM)L Verge Wrote: Your assessments of Mary Lincoln, Kate, Sprague the Sot are really well thought-out, Genna. Thank you so much.

In an earlier post, you brought up the subject of Sprague's devious second wife. I knew nothing about her until reading American Queen. Do you have any more juicy details on her background as well as her marriage to Sprague? Also, what about Mary Viall, the longtime mistress that Sprague insisted on rubbing in Kate's face - and the public's for that matter?

Oller put it nicely when he referred to the Sprague's second marriage as something of a soap opera. Sprague was scarcely married to Dora, as I like to call her, more than about three years when she took to the public and made a complete idiot of herself, much like Mary Vial Anderson. It always amazed me how Sprague would manipulate his tramps to become so vicious toward Kate, that they would take out publicly to humiliate her. Well, this one was certainly no different. In fact, Sprague was a compulsive liar and the way he described this woman was certainly disputed in the Cincinnati Press, from the very start and later reprinted in the New York Times.

I was intrigued, to say the least, when I had read that they were married for 32 years. I couldn't imagine that anyone would have put up with him but because of further and deeper research, I figured out why, It is quite a soap opera indeed!

It seems that while Sprague was giving Kate hell for the two years he had his attorney's putting off their divorce, until Willy was of age to decide to live with him, at some point he was indeed corresponding with this "tramp" who was trying to divorce her husband who was a traveling book salesman. She grew up poor, her father, a shoemaker, of not much means, was on the prowl for a "rich one!" I can't find where Sprague was actually seeing her, but by his own admission, this one wrote "great" letters and was very intelligent and educated. Well, it turns out that was a big fat lie, investigated by the Cincinnati Press and exposed that this woman was actually barely divorced when Sprague went to Virginia to claim her as his wife, much to the surprise of everyone he knew and that would include his son and the rest of his family!

It seems that his depression was waning and he was in one of his "euphoric" states as all of this was taking place. She was not so educated and didn't have a "pot" as they say, while Sprague bragged also that she was independently wealthy. LOL!

She was only 23 and he was 53! Almost from the start, when he claimed this so called "temperance vow" Sprague was flying high as a kite! He actually believed that he could start all over and this time with a woman who he stated to everyone would be a "good wife!" (I don't know why but I took that like he was saying she would make a good housekeeper) I always felt that was what Sprague really wanted in a wife anyway. He was very careful to hide this little affair while he was going through the divorce actions with Kate. (How interesting)

Well, from the start, it became a sort of business arrangement. Sprague had some capital tied up in the house, paintings and the like and when some of his property would go up for auction, he would give her the money and she would buy it. Like laundering the money through her. By doing this, he managed to put what property he could acquire into her name. (Funny how she managed this) She wasn't so "dumb Dora" for her age, because she got control of him, without him realizing what the hell he was doing. He thought that she would let him do all of this and he could still control some of what he had gained by telling her that he would always give her half. LOL. This man was such a fool. Kate had offered to help him retrieve his control of his business and yet, hard headed, he was reduced to this instead. He spent the second half of his life trying like hell to regain his financial standing because without it, he was really not much to write home about. It is said that when Mrs. Sprague and her sister would hit the beaches in the summer, they created quite a stir with the men there. They were huge flirts both on the beach and in town when they went for shopping trips. Its pretty obvious that they didn't plan for Sprague to live to a ripe old age, that is for sure.

She decorated what rooms he allowed with Mr. Wheaton's money as Avice, by then was married to him and he was a multi millionaire. (Those Weed women just needed to land one big fat one and Avice did it) They all lived off Mr. Wheaton, even their little brother, the other "parasite" who later killed himself by taking an overdose of morphine in a hotel room in New York with a male friend. They had made a pact to kill themselves together and one lived and one didn't.

It seems that Dora was a bit upset, however, because she realised that Sprague didn't really have the fortune that she had hoped and since she practically forced Sprague to force Willy to marry her sister to assure that whatever Willy inherited, she and her sister would also control, it seems that Mr. Chafee ended up taking that too, so it was of no consequence to them when Mr. Wheaton sent off Willy to work in New York so that he could do his wife under Sprague's nose, in Sprague's own home! Yep. He did allow that to happen so that when Avice popped up pregnant, everyone was already gossiping at the Pier and whispering about seeing Avice in the constant company of Wheaton while Willy was absent. The press later asked Dora about the divorce of Willy and her sister and wondered on what grounds he got it. Funny, but this time Dora didn't want the press to ask her questions and only replied by asking what they had heard and shrugged her shoulders and told them that she didn't want to answer anymore questions because she was afraid of the press. (Hilarious) Willy swore that baby wasn't his, heck he was barely ever there. He quickly implored the help of his mother when his father disowned him for telling everyone and leaving that little tramp exposed. It's complicated.

It seems that, while there is no proof, there is Willy's last letter to his father, which implies that he might have been gay! Yep. I said gay. I have no idea, other than for reasons of control and money, why William forced his son to marry Avice, as she didn't want to marry him either, but she didn't contest the divorce and went, straight away, to marry Wheaton, who it is said raised Inez like she was his own! (Hilarious again, because she was, but the child carried the name, Sprague). Now, why do you supposed that William played grandpa to this kid? I know that some believe that it was even his child, but I don't. I think for sure that Wheaton was her father and when she grew up and had Stennis's child, she named her daughter, Avice Wheaton Stennis.

My firm belief, from all of my research this summer, was that Avice, Dora and Sprague struck a deal. They decided that to save face for Avice, who everyone knew did not have Willy's child and to save face for Willy, they would just let it be that Avice had Willy's child, legally, but Wheaton was the father. It wasn't his first child either. He had a daughter by a previous marriage and funny, but Avice adopted that daughter so that when Wheaton died, he left the entire of his fortune, 7 million and 632 shares of Standard Oil stock to Avice! Yep! Avice became a really rich ***** but even with her money, the jokes just kept coming for all of them. It seems that her third husband found her to be a fraud! Rich but nothing much else. He was considerably younger than she and it seems that after a few years of marriage he wanted a kid and went out and found himself a woman who had one for him, while he told the hospital the woman's name was Avice, his wife!( the soap opera continues)

It hits the papers that she is now filing for divorce and brings up the fact that he was mentally cruel to her and even had a child who he tried to say was hers! You can't make this up! LOL! It seems that Borda, from a very old and very well known family in Porta Rica knew that she and her sister were tramps and said so, often in the presence of some very influential people at parties while in Porta Rica and here, in america. They were divorced and a few years later, Avice died.

Can you just imagine what Sprague would have done if people knew that he, the womanizer of the century had a gay son? When the letter was published, it was hard to deny and I am sure that Kate, who is so private, was mortified. And to think that when his son killed himself, he didn't even go to bury him. He had gotten word that there was a mob ready to kill him if he did and so he took his pack of "Weeds" and went home after the church service.

Dora had Sprague by the financial balls by then and when Avice married Wheaton, they all lived off Mr. Wheaton. He even paid for Dora to redo some of house, with her paintings of curpids and loud waterfalls and ceiling paintings of "Love" complete with little colorful sayings and mermaid paintings on the walls in her bathroom. (Sounds like a Bardello in comparison to the tasteful work of Kate, when she chose the appointments for those rooms so carefully. LOL

Sprague tried time and again to sell the mansion but always, he and Dora fought over it because she refused to give him half of the profits. LOL She wanted it all, so it never sold. They did, however, for a time, rent it out for summer visitors and Dora was basically like the inkeeper of the summer resort.

It is my belief that when Dora married this much older man, she figured that she would get his big fortune and the big house and since he was so old already, she wouldn't have to put up with him to long. Not quite what she thought, however. He lived longer than even he thought and he outlived what money he did have and before long, they were actually living off her sister, who controlled their finances. It was strange that they actually moved, that he actually agreed to move, to Paris. He hated Paris! I think that by then, they were homeless and he was sick and frankly, I don't think that Sprague knew much by then.

I might mention here, Dora wanted to be a big opera star and while I haven't figured out where they got the funds for this, they hyped her pretty big in her first big concert at the Boston Symphony somewhere in the fall of 1886. It seems that she would go a few times to Paris to study and her voice coach told her that if she worked really hard at it, she could be a big star. On her first visit to Paris, of course, she brought home a french maid who also acted as her secretary? For what, I have no idea but Kate did have a french maid and she wanted to be the new Kate. They had even hired an agent for her, who later just went home and cancelled all of the other engagements he had planned on her behalf. That is where Nicholas Brewer first met her. He painted her portrait to be used for this opening act. However, it didn't go as planned, in fact, it didn't go at all. No one even applauded and you could hear a pin drop in the room. The reviews were so horrible that she ran back to the Pier never to sing in public again. Get this! The woman is married to a man whose son had committed suicide and one of her opening numbers was from Anaconda! The press had a field day!

At every turn, Sprague and his new family found rejection and not just private rejection. It was in the papers everywhere when he threatened to disown Inez for Stennis but how could he disown her when her mother owned him? That never happened. To insure that she inherited the mansion, Avice and her third husband, Mr. Borda of Porta Rica, bought it for an undisclosed sum of money. I am thinking that Avice bought it with her stock, like a trade of some sort. They could live off the interest. Then it just burned down the day they moved in.

It goes on from here. If you want to know more. I will tell you. The next 5 years in Paris finds them sailing back a forth a few times, Sprague half dead, and Inez getting a divorce and decides that she would rather take flying lessons than be married!

Upon the death of these two women, both in Providence and in Narragansett, even today, there is a trust from the Standard Oil stock in both their names, to be used to help the needy.

If that don't beat all! Dora was intent on leaving her mark because she spent her entire marriage trying to live down Kate. She made sure that she was buried as Mrs. Sprague but after she buried Sprague, she lived in Paris. These women were not socially accepted, even with Avice's money, but Avice did try.

To me, it is a bit of an insult that Mrs. Sprague and Sprague were living so well while his little girls were not and his son was dead. I do believe that is what attracted Portia to want to know her father. Leaving a trust for the less fortunate could have been used by Sprague, if he wasn't so stupid, to help his son and feed and cloth his little girls. Instead, it was all showered on Wheaton's child, who they all claimed belonged to Willy. Didn't Sprague even care for his little girls at all? By the time Portia went to look up her father, it was rather an insult that she had to go through Dora to stay in the very home her mother built and through a woman who had insulted her mother in the most horrible of public ridicule. I wasn't impressed that Avice made sure the poor got her whore money and that her sister was able to finally establish that she was "Mrs. Sprague."

Sprague and Dora stayed together because neither of them had anywhere else to go. It was Avice's money that kept them in their marriage and I have a feeling that it became a kind of "in name only" sort of thing, very early on. According to Brewer, by Spragues own admission, it was a marriage of convenience. He married her to help him save Cannonchet. If he was so happy and content, it was indeed full of soap opera and high drama and to someone with Bi-Polar disorder who loved to dress up in his bicycle clothes and walk in the storming rains on the beach and sometimes take long walks at night because he couldn't sleep,it must have been a blast! LOL

So, if Kate was such a scandal, this was a soap opera fraught with scandal and Kate had nothing to do with any of it. Somehow, I fell that alot of this was a bit of redemption for Kate, however. I am sure the press thought twice as all of this took place.

Mary Vial actually came from a very prominent family in Providence. She was a strange one. A sort of "Beatnick" type. She believe in free love! It was, after all, the late 50's and early 60's. She hooked up with Sprague and they were lovers. It seems, by all accounts, that up until this time, Fanny and her family were all very prominent and accepted in the social circles that mattered. Fanny was well respected and much loved. Sprague was young and was just starting in the company when he took on Mary and all her free loving alcohol and whatever else she was into. I believe that she very much "free loved" Sprague because she got herself knocked up by her "Little Napoleon" and from then on, things just started down hill for Sprague and his family. Especially, socially. When it was found that Mary had gotten pregnant, Fanny sent Sprague to Europe to study the military and Mary's family hurridly married her to an officer named Anderson and the child had his name. Their affair lasted through Spragues adult life and his marriage to Kate. She hated Kate because she felt that Kate's father had sold her off for money and had taken her "free lover" away from her. Sprague did nothing to change her mind about it either. I think that he even encouraged it. I mean this is a man who wanted his wife's permission to screw around. Hilarious! Mary, however, was not his only conquest, as we well know, but she is the only one who wrote a book about it all and publicly humiliated Kate. Sprague did nothing then either. Amazing! It wasn't until Kate was actually pregnant for Willy and found a note from Mary that even she knew that her son would not be Sprague's first child. Even Fanny had encouraged Sprague to tell Kate the truth from the start! How funny, when you think how Sprague wanted to drop Kate because he had heard in Ohio that she kept company with a married man before her father moved them to Washington. This guy was a real idiot. He had no remorse for his actions in or out of his marriage to Kate and had nothing but encouragement for the women who wanted to humiliate her. Yet, he went nuts with a gun over Conkling? I am still amazed about that and I have some thoughts about that, that would probably shake up the history community and even Mr. Oller.

There isn't alot more about Mary that I can find, other than the fact that she became a complete alcoholic and died a sotted drunk.

Was Sprague so faithful to Dora? Was Dora so faithful to Sprague? Its 32 years and he got old fast. The answer: Nope. Does a leopard change its spots? Did Sprague really stop drinking? Hardly! While Orestes, Dora's brother went fleeing from Cannochet scared to death of William and his gun, I am pretty sure that it was known that William wasn't always sober. The old man walked the beach almost every night in the wee hours and one wonders if he went looking for his old lover, Mary Vial. It was a love/hate relationship, that is for sure but then that was typical of Sprague.