Spielberg's Lincoln

[LincolnMan]

This is very interesting regrding the 13th amendment vote: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/...latestnews

[My Name Is Kate]

(02-12-2013 09:58 AM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I seriously doubt that the people whose freedom was guaranteed by the 13th Amendment ever felt that too much attention had been focused on it, nor would their descendants feel that way.

I suspect that many of those most affected by the 13th Amendment resent the fact that it was ever necessary to pass such legislation, and would like to think that they fought and earned their freedom without the help of Lincoln or anyone else, and though there may be some truth in that, it's just not the way history happened. People do things to each other that may be humanly unforgivable, but if wounds are ever to heal, people are going to have to leave the past in the past and move on. Women didn't have it so good throughout history either. Seems I recall reading somewhere a long time ago, that in ancient times, women were considered too stupid and inferior to have souls. But I doubt that most women know or even care that that is a part of history, and it's probably a good thing that they don't.

And I'm not saying let's forget slavery ever happened, or the Holocaust ever happened. I'm just saying that you can't dwell on things like that, and keep throwing it in people's faces because that won't do anything but cause more resentment.

[Jim Page]

(02-19-2013 06:06 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Women didn't have it so good throughout history either.

And many still don't. Here in the U.S., we seem to forget the hideous treatment women receive in other parts of the world every moment of their lives.

I have seen some of this first-hand, from folks who moved to the United States with their prejudices intact and invulnerable, and it's enough to make you cry.

--Jim

[Liz Rosenthal]

I'm not descended from slaves, but *I* resent the fact that the U.S., touted as a beacon of light to the world, started out with 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow, something that only ended during my childhood, while the aftereffects linger on. Abraham Lincoln himself wrote to his friend Joshua Speed in 1855 that (I'm paraphrasing) he'd almost rather live in Russia, a country where they make no pretense of liberty, than live in a country that is supposed to treasure liberty but, hypocritically, does not act that way.

If we just "move on," and choose to "forget" the shameful aspects of our history, two things will happen:
**We won't be able to adequately address the lingering effects of, in this case, slavery;
**We will act ignorantly of our history and make similar mistakes again.

Did you know that, the night that President Obama was reelected in November, students at Ole Miss demonstrated against having a black man in the White House, using certain choice terminology that I won't repeat here? Did these students not know of the central place Ole Miss had in the civil rights fight of the 1950s? Perhaps not, or perhaps they live in an atmosphere that trivializes the past.

(02-19-2013 06:06 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  

(02-12-2013 09:58 AM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I seriously doubt that the people whose freedom was guaranteed by the 13th Amendment ever felt that too much attention had been focused on it, nor would their descendants feel that way.

I suspect that many of those most affected by the 13th Amendment resent the fact that it was ever necessary to pass such legislation, and would like to think that they fought and earned their freedom without the help of Lincoln or anyone else, and though there may be some truth in that, it's just not the way history happened. People do things to each other that may be humanly unforgivable, but if wounds are ever to heal, people are going to have to leave the past in the past and move on. Women didn't have it so good throughout history either. Seems I recall reading somewhere a long time ago, that in ancient times, women were considered too stupid and inferior to have souls. But I doubt that most women know or even care that that is a part of history, and it's probably a good thing that they don't.

And I'm not saying let's forget slavery ever happened, or the Holocaust ever happened. I'm just saying that you can't dwell on things like that, and keep throwing it in people's faces because that won't do anything but cause more resentment.

[L Verge]

No one has advocated FORGETTING that slavery or other atrocities existed. The point is that you learn from the past, not dwell on it, and that you appreciate achievements that have been made in society. If you keep pouting about the way things used to be, you will never begin to improve the situation.

I don't think slavery in any form is correct; but I have not made a slave of anyone, and I refuse to let people hold the institution of slavery over my head like a whip and make me feel guilty. I have also known many fine people descended from those held in slavery, and they have taken every opportunity to better themselves without dwelling on the past. They understand that it happened, that it was wrong, but that there is a better future ahead.

[My Name Is Kate]

Thank you, Laurie, for expressing my sentiments better than I was able to. I am also not descended from slaves, but without going into any sordid details and trying to make people feel guilty over what happened to me, I do know what it is like to be enslaved, and I could (and did) blame it on alot of people, including the laws in this country at the time. But I am so sick and tired of being angry and hateful and wasting time dwelling on it, that I have learned to be appreciative of what I do have, and I want to be happy, not miserable.

If someone is stomping on your rights, and you are able to fight back by legal means, then do it. But don't just dwell on it and keep shoving it in other people's faces.

[L Verge]

Good for you and God bless you for having the fortitude to move on with your life. As a friend of mine said to me recently when I was hurt and angry and dealing with some despicable people, "Pull up your big girl panties and move on!" I think there are many people in this country and the world who need to do just that.

[Gene C]

(02-19-2013 07:02 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I'm not descended from slaves, but *I* resent the fact that the U.S., touted as a beacon of light to the world, started out with 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow, something that only ended during my childhood, while the aftereffects linger on.

If we just "move on," and choose to "forget" the shameful aspects of our history, two things will happen:
**We won't be able to adequately address the lingering effects of, in this case, slavery;
**We will act ignorantly of our history and make similar mistakes again.

I agree with your "just move on and choose to forget" comments, but if we were not a "beacon of light to the world", the Gettysburg address would be meaningless, and we would not have the imigration problem we have had for over 30 years.

[Liz Rosenthal]

For me, the Gettysburg Address defines what the Civil War was about. First, it was about whether it was possible to preserve something very rare, if nonexistent, in the world at the time, a democratic form of government. Particularly important to Lincoln, and something that hasn't been discussed much by anybody, was the fact that, if the U.S. fell apart, the lesson for the rest of the world would be that democracy doesn't work. The implication would be that humanity would continue to toil under tyranny, with little hope for anything better. (Fortunately, we are now but one of dozens of nations, if not more, governed under democratic principles.)

Equally important in the Gettysburg Address was the establishment of a "new birth of freedom," meaning the end of slavery, and the need for those surviving the dead of Gettysburg (and, by implication, the dead of the entire war) to continue the work of realizing true liberty. Lincoln did not view American liberty as something that had already been finalized, with nothing more to do. It was a work in progress. And it still is.

(02-20-2013 08:22 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(02-19-2013 07:02 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I'm not descended from slaves, but *I* resent the fact that the U.S., touted as a beacon of light to the world, started out with 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow, something that only ended during my childhood, while the aftereffects linger on.

If we just "move on," and choose to "forget" the shameful aspects of our history, two things will happen:
**We won't be able to adequately address the lingering effects of, in this case, slavery;
**We will act ignorantly of our history and make similar mistakes again.

I agree with your "just move on and choose to forget" comments, but if we were not a "beacon of light to the world", the Gettysburg address would be meaningless, and we would not have the imigration problem we have had for over 30 years.

[My Name Is Kate]

(02-19-2013 07:02 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I'm not descended from slaves, but *I* resent the fact that the U.S., touted as a beacon of light to the world, started out with 250 years of slavery and 100 years of Jim Crow, something that only ended during my childhood, while the aftereffects linger on. Abraham Lincoln himself wrote to his friend Joshua Speed in 1855 that (I'm paraphrasing) he'd almost rather live in Russia, a country where they make no pretense of liberty, than live in a country that is supposed to treasure liberty but, hypocritically, does not act that way.

If we just "move on," and choose to "forget" the shameful aspects of our history...

I see no point in continuing to resent "a fact" which so many have fought and died to correct over the history of this country. I'm curious as to what this country would need to do for you (not just you, of course, but anyone who feels like you do) to no longer feel resentful toward it, or will you always feel that way? I think it is pretty remarkable that a country with the ideals of America, as expressed in the Constitution, was created at all during a time when there was not much else besides tyranny and imperialism as models for government (according to what you wrote above). I suppose I could feel resentful too because women were discriminated against in many ways, and didn't have the right to vote until the 1920s or so (I'm drawing on my sparse reserves of historical knowledge here), but in my opinion, that would be just plain silly.

If you (again, anyone) find resonance with the above quote by Lincoln, then do your sympathies lie more with the South, which made no pretense at all of liberty for certain Americans, or with the North, which had qualms about actually enslaving certain Americans, but had no qualms about segregating and demoralizing them?

I guess you didn't notice that I said I was not advocating "forgetting" the atrocities of the past. I was just trying to be practical when I said that it was best to "move on" and let go of useless and destructive emotions.

[HerbS]

Eveything is History,except for your resentment! "Get Over It"!

[Liz Rosenthal]

I was just trying to point out that "resentment" should not be viewed as the province only of African-Americans. Characterizing it as "resentment" is also an oversimplified way to describe how aggrieved minorities may view the society they live in or the history of the country they live in.

With regard to women, their oppression (yes, oppression) has always been a worldwide phenomenon. There's nothing uniquely American about it. Women didn't get the vote in the UK, either, until about the time that American women did.

But maybe you could explain what you mean by "moving on" versus "forgetting." Because I don't understand the distinction.

---

I'd also like to mention that, as a country, we've made great strides in advancing the cause of freedom domestically. I don't mean to give the impression that I don't think that. But I also think that we have a way to go yet.

And I don't think that my fellow Americans should "resent" my particular feelings about certain aspects of American history. We can use history as a method of learning and growing as a nation. To a certain extent we have, but it's been a long process, and we need to do more.

[HerbS]

Not to deny that many minorities have been been oppressed-from-Heavy people to handicapped people-Religous to Athiests etc.I find it hard to believe that you don't understand the distinction between-"moving on" and "forgetting".We find it very difficult to forget, and with hope and without ignorance we move on!

[Laurie Verge]

Liz,

First, your last posting basically says the very same thing that I have been stressing (mainly to you) over the past few days. I was getting the distinct feeling that you saw some of us as a bunch of rebel rabble who were condoning the institution of slavery 150 years after its elimination.

No one is suggesting forgetting about the institution, but there is a distinct difference between "forgetting" and "moving on." Talking in historical terms, "forgetting" insinuates that we advocate wiping out the topic entirely (such as some people have done with the Holocaust in suggesting that it never occurred). No one on this forum is dumb enough to think that.

However, "moving on" means that you recognize problems, work to fix them (which we as a nation have certainly done - especially in the past 60 years), and continue to make progress without constantly using the evil past as an excuse for failure. This holds true for a variety of areas that still need working on in our society - such as reverse discrimination.

Let's change the word "resent" to "respect" and have it as a two-way street. Or, better yet, let's consider that we all get the gist of this thread and MOVE ON.

P.S. I taught for nearly a decade when the schools of Maryland were going through desegregation. I have vivid memories of the dissatisfaction that both sides felt during that very troubling time. Trust me, it wasn't just white backlash.

[Liz Rosenthal]

Laurie:
I appreciate your post very much. Thanks.