Lincoln & Herndon

[Mike B.]

(07-06-2014 04:55 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I'm not one for memorizing dates, but after reading Eva's posting above of the 1866, very cordial letter that Mrs. Lincoln sent to her nemesis, would someone please provide a timeline showing approximately when Herndon's vendetta against the First Lady began and when it was at its height, and finally when other authors decided to follow suit?

Laurie, I would point you to the Doug Wilson chapter in the "Mary Lincoln Enigma" which goes over the course of the fighting.

The flip side of the coin is that many authors have assumed they were constantly in a state of fighting, and I think the letter shows they were not until the Ann Rutledge lecture.

[L Verge]

I read the whole Enigma book and enjoyed it, but I guess I did not retain the information on the Herndon vs. Mary subject. Back to the drawing board. However, I thought I read somewhere that Herndon last met with Lincoln in Washington in 1862, but was not invited into the family portion of the White House because of his enmity with Mary?

[LincolnMan]

Good point Gene. Hope we can.

[RJNorton]

(07-06-2014 06:08 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I read the whole Enigma book and enjoyed it, but I guess I did not retain the information on the Herndon vs. Mary subject. Back to the drawing board. However, I thought I read somewhere that Herndon last met with Lincoln in Washington in 1862, but was not invited into the family portion of the White House because of his enmity with Mary?

Regarding the Washington visit, David Herbert Donald (in Lincoln's Herndon) writes, "Two embarrassing episodes marred Herndon's visit. Running short of money, he had to borrow twenty-five dollars from his partner-President. And, Mrs. Lincoln, who had always thoroughly disapproved of Herndon, snubbed him. Herndon's feelings were hurt and he was bitterly resentful. 'Mrs. Lincoln,' he confided to a friend, 'is a very curious - eccentric - wicked woman.' 'Poor Lincoln!' he sympathized. 'He is domestically a desolate man - has been for years to my own knowledge.' In years to come, Mrs. Lincoln would have cause to regret her rudeness.

Before leaving the capital Herndon had dinner at the White House. When he was ready to go, President Lincoln accompanied him to the rear portico of the executive mansion, where a carriage was waiting. Grasping his partner by the hand, the President bade him a hearty 'Good-bye.' It was the last time Herndon saw Lincoln alive."

[Angela]

(06-28-2014 06:41 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  [When Lincoln finished his business, he would haul his children back home and meet the same old scolding or a new and intensified one. He bore all quite philosophically."]// quote

Hi Roger,

Can you or someone else please explain to me how in the %$# Herndon knew that Lincoln got a "scolding" when he returned home with the children?? Did AL discuss it with him back at the office.."Oh, Mary slapped me around again"?

Why did he write this, when he already admitted AL never discussed his personal life with him?

That is an interesting question which had me puzzled as well a couple of month ago when I started reading about Herndon.
I think what is important here is to make a distinction between matters he spoke about in public or in his book and private letters.
In a letter to Jessie Weik Herndon described how Lincoln would bring the kids to the office after a fight at home. Herndon would leave them alone for a while and return after an hour, hoping that the mood was better. Sometimes Lincoln would tell him what happened and other times not.
So maybe Herndon thought that certain things discussed were private?

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Angela,

I have read many times where Herndon wrote that Lincoln brought the children to the law office, and I also understand that he(Herndon) felt AL did so due to turmoil at home. But at no time have I ever read Herndon admit that AL confided that information to him. My understanding it was always Herndon's assumption.

Do you have access to any private letters between Herndon and Weik where Herndon says AL confided this to him? Could you quote them? Thanks!

[Mike B.]

I do think the timeline is important. When the feud started, etc.

It even carried on about religion. ML denied she said certain things about Lincoln's religious views and Herndon at that point gleefully pointed out publically contradicting her.

However, RPR, and others (nobody here) have made the feud as early as possible to make it seem that Herndon led all his witnesses to be against Mary. (There were pro-Mary informants as well.) (Dough Wilson and Rodney Davis in the papers have found no real evidence of this anyway.)

BTW,
I believe Herndon does put too much weight on certain statements like the one by "Tiger" who said that Lincoln admitting to suffering 15 years in marriage. That to me seemed more like a throwaway line joke if true more than anything.

[LincolnToddFan]

Mary Todd Lincoln in her September 1866 meeting with Herndon, said on the subject of her husband's religious beliefs that he had "no faith and hope" in the traditional sense, which was true. (Mary Todd Lincoln, Her Life and Letters, Linda Leavitt-Turner and Justin Turner)
From that interview Herndon promoted the idea that MTL had confirmed that Lincoln was an infidel and an atheist which most definitely was not true. She had stressed to him how the experience of the WH had deepened her husband's religious sensibilities, which Herndon chose to ignore. It did not fit the narrative he wanted to tell which was that his hero, a man he idolized, was like himself completely devoid of religious belief.

As for the "Tiger" incident, in which Lincoln is supposed to have spilled his guts about 15 years of domestic unhappiness to a virtual stranger on the street? Herndon wrote of this to Weik in 1887. He says it came to him from James Matheny which-like so many other unflattering MTL anecdotes-makes it a 3rd hand story occurring years after the fact. But even that is not what makes it so dubious...Herndon says the incident occurred in 1850. How on earth could Lincoln have complained about 15 years of marital misery in 1850 when he had only been married at that point for 7-8 years??

Then we have Herndon, in his infinite wisdom, assuring his audience that AL never signed off his letters to his wife "affectionately". Why MTL didn't simply produce the stack of letters she had in her possession that proved otherwise I will never know. Maybe she felt it beneath her to defend her marriage to a man who didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

All of the above tells me that if Herndon didn't sometimes straight out lie to make his points, he wasn't above embellishing and twisting facts.

[Mike B.]

(07-07-2014 08:57 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Mary Todd Lincoln in her September 1866 meeting with Herndon, said on the subject of her husband's religious beliefs that he had "no faith and hope" in the traditional sense, which was true. (Mary Todd Lincoln, Her Life and Letters, Linda Leavitt-Turner and Justin Turner)
From that interview Herndon promoted the idea that MTL had confirmed that Lincoln was an infidel and an atheist which most definitely was not true. She had stressed to him how the experience of the WH had deepened her husband's religious sensibilities, which Herndon chose to ignore. It did not fit the narrative he wanted to tell which was that his hero, a man he idolized, was like himself completely devoid of religious belief.

As for the "Tiger" incident, in which Lincoln is supposed to have spilled his guts about 15 years of domestic unhappiness to a virtual stranger on the street? Herndon wrote of this to Weik in 1887. He says it came to him from James Matheny which-like so many other unflattering MTL anecdotes-makes it a 3rd hand story occurring years after the fact. But even that is not what makes it so dubious...Herndon says the incident occurred in 1850. How on earth could Lincoln have complained about 15 years of marital misery in 1850 when he had only been married at that point for 7-8 years??

Then we have Herndon, in his infinite wisdom, assuring his audience that AL never signed off his letters to his wife "affectionately". Why MTL didn't simply produce the stack of letters she had in her possession that proved otherwise I will never know. Maybe she felt it beneath her to defend her marriage to a man who didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

All of the above tells me that if Herndon didn't sometimes straight out lie to make his points, he wasn't above embellishing and twisting facts.

I wrote a book on Lincoln's religion. It just got a good review in "Lincoln Lore." The WSJ says about it, "Not every attempt to enlist Lincoln is far-fetched, of course, and a good deal of energy has been expended in simply trying to figure out what religious convictions Lincoln held, if any. The latest effort in this very long quest comes from Michael Burkhimer, a high school history teacher and author of 100 Essential ­Lincoln Books . His recently published Lincoln’s Christianity is earnest and careful and as thorough as a book can be that hopes to treat so serpentine a subject in the span of two hundred pages. For the layman and the Lincoln buff alike, it’s a useful and reliable compendium of what we know about Lincoln’s religious views. If Burkhimer falters here and there, it is in assuming, or perhaps hoping, that we know more about the subject than we do."


Herndon can be more accurately be termed a universalist than an atheist. He also wanted Lincoln to be that way, and in large part Lincoln was, a position that would have made him an "infidel" in that day's views. (a position not controversial today). Wayne Temple calls him a "theist" in his book which is also an accurate description.

Mary did try to change what she said to him in that interview when she saw Herndon's take on the matter though. Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember that she later even denied talking to him about it.

[LincolnToddFan]

Mary did deny ever talking to him at first, which was really dumb of her. She had to know that he was too clever for that, and that she would be humiliated in the end. But I still maintain that he twisted what she told him, and took advantage of her generosity in granting him an interview in the first place.

I doubt if Lincoln would ever have truly embraced orthodox Christianity, he was too much of an intellectual truth seeker. But to me at least it is pretty obvious that in the final months of his life he was moving closer to the accepted and widespread religious beliefs of his contemporaries. The Second Inaugural, for example, is not the work of a sceptic, a universalist, or a deist in my opinion.

Mike, congratulations and thanks for the heads up on your new book. It sounds like something I would VERY much be interested in reading.

[Angela]

(07-07-2014 02:39 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Hi Angela,

I have read many times where Herndon wrote that Lincoln brought the children to the law office, and I also understand that he(Herndon) felt AL did so due to turmoil at home. But at no time have I ever read Herndon admit that AL confided that information to him. My understanding it was always Herndon's assumption.

Do you have access to any private letters between Herndon and Weik where Herndon says AL confided this to him? Could you quote them? Thanks!

Since I'm at work, I can only toss you what is online for now. Here is a letter from January 11, 1886 in which Herndon states "I would as a
matter of course know that Lincoln was driven from home, by a club,
knife, or tongue," which is very specific and therefor allows for the conclusion that they must have talked about this topic at one point.

[LincolnToddFan]

Thanks Angela.

But Herndon also claimed he "knew" for sure how AL addressed his wife in their private correspondence. He was dead wrong.

He knew for sure that Lincoln had failed to appear at a wedding ceremony between him and Mary that had been scheduled for Jan 01, 1841. There was never any ceremony scheduled for that day, therefore it's not possible for Lincoln to have stood Mary up.

He knew for sure that Lincoln never had a moment of joy or happiness in 23 years of marriage, and that Mary married him solely for revenge and not love. There are too many eyewitness accounts to mention that directly contradict this, not to mention MTL's personal correspondence to AL in the early years of the marriage.

He was quite certain, as he told Jesse Weik, that Mary was somehow culpable in the premature deaths of her children. That was not only an incredible statement, it makes Herndon sound as vicious and unbalanced as he claimed MTL was.

It might well be that AL was occasionally driven from his home in the manner described by WH, but it's certainly not information that Lincoln or anyone close to Lincoln ever gave Herndon, because if it was he would have categorically said so or named names, at least in his private correspondence.

[RJNorton]

(07-07-2014 08:57 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  All of the above tells me that if Herndon didn't sometimes straight out lie to make his points, he wasn't above embellishing and twisting facts.

I agree that we have to look carefully at Herndon's writings. The hard part for me is that I tend to "accept" some things and "question" others. Is this right? Should we really be questioning everything? For example, I think most writers accept Lincoln's quote - "God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her" - as fact. But the source for this is Herndon. Did Lincoln really say it as Herndon reported or was the quote "modified" to purposely leave out Mary Lincoln? Does everyone accept that Lincoln said this exactly as Herndon reported?

[LincolnToddFan]

Hi Roger-

You make a great point. I have never questioned the veracity of that statement-it kind of sounds like something AL would have said. But on the other hand it's also possible that it's one of Herndon's many embellishments. The problem with Herndon is that he prided himself on what he called his "insight" and had no problem making his assumptions about things and then sort of running with the ball, in a manner of speaking.

I guess you can tell at this point that I am not a fan. And unlike so many historians and Lincoln scholars over the years I am not willing to accept his every utterance on AL as holy writ just because he shared a law office with the man, and because AL liked him.

ETA: Herndon met Sarah Bush Lincoln after AL was murdered. They hit it off and liked one another from his description of the meeting. She gave him personal items that had belonged to AL. Was Herndon claiming that Lincoln said he owed all he was to his biological mother Nancy, or to Sarah?

As for Mary's influence on AL, even her enemies concede that it was considerable. She gave him polish, a lovely home befitting an up and coming politician, and she matched and stimulated him intellectually. She encouraged him and believed in his greatness from beginning to end. Whether or not Billy Herndon acknowledged her for it is pointless, imo.

[Eva Elisabeth]

Herndon IMO contradicted himself - on one hand he was convinced that he could read Lincoln's mind, on the other hand he called Lincoln “The most shut-mouthed man I ever knew”. Also "being convinced to be able to" doesn't necessarily mean being right. I think in many matters he read Lincoln's mind from his own (Herndon's) point of view, e.g. all the "evils" in his marriage, which might have been a no-go for Herndon, but not for Lincoln or others. People are different. I, too, think he wanted to make Lincoln more an infidel than he might have been.

I think there were two different kinds of "dislikes/splits" between Mary and Herndon: a general one that began with him comparing her dancing to a serpent, and rooting in too different personalities and views on all matters of life, and a second one after the Rutledge lectures where he "stole" Mary her husband's love. As you can see in her letter above despite all that had been in the past she responded to him most politely and without any resentments, and gave him the interview. Also since Mary has often been criticized so harshly I think it's worth posting some of the outcome of Mary's interview with Herndon (from Wilson, Douglas L., ed.; Davis, Rodney O., ed.: "Herndon's Informants..."):

254. Mary Todd Lincoln (William H. Herndon Interview)
[September 1866]

Mrs Lincoln's Conversation in substance with me at the St Nicholas Hotel — She Said — [...]
My husband intended when he was through with his Presidential terms to take me and family to Europe — didn't in late years dream of death — was cheery — funny — in high Spirits. He intended to return & go to California over the Rocky Mountains and see the prospects of the soldiers &c. &c digging [out] gold to pay the National debt. He and Sumner were like boys during his last days — They were down on the River after Richmond was taken: they acted like boys — were so glad the war was over. Mr Lincoln up to 1865 wanted to live in Springfield and be buried there — Changed his notion where to live — never settled on any place particularly — intended moving & travelling some

Mr Lincoln was the Kindest Man — Most tender Man & loving husband & father in the world: he gave us all unbounded liberty — Said to me always when I asked him for anything — 'You Know what you want — go and get it': he [never] asked me if it was necessary: he was very — indulgent to his children — chided or prais[ed them] for it — their acts — : he always said 'It [is my] pleasure that my children are free — happy & unrestrained by parental tyranny. Love is the chain whereby to Lock a child to its parents'
[...]
Mr Lincoln had a dream when down the River at City point after Richmond was taken: he dreamed that the white House burned up — Sent me up the River — went — Met Stanton &c. Mr Lincoln told me to get a party and Come back. I did so.
[...]
Our expenses at the White House were about [two] thousand dollars per month — breakfasted at [9] o'clock am — lunched at 2 o'cl PM — dined [at] 6 o'cl PM. Mr Lincoln got up irregularly — Saw the people — attended to the Hospital &c.
[..]
Mr Linc[oln] had a Kind of Poetry in his Nature: he was [a terribly] firm man when he set his foot down — none of us — no man nor woman Could rule him after he had made up his mind. I told him about Sewards intention to rule him — : he said — 'I shall rule myself — shall obey my own Conscience and follow God in it.' Mr Lincoln had no hope & no faith in the usual acceptation of those words: he never joined a Church: he was a religious man always, as I think: he first thought — to say think — about this subject was when Willie died — never before. he felt religious More than Ever about the time he went to Gettysburg: he was not a technical Christian: he read the bible a good deal about 1864
[...]
I often said that [God] would not let any harm Come to my husband. We had passed through 5 long years — terrible — bloody years unscathed that I thought so — so did Mr Lincoln: he was happy over that idea: he was cheerful — almost joyous as he got gradually to see the End of the war.

I used to read News paper c[harges — ] News paper attacks on him — He said ['Don't do] that for I have Enough to bear — yet I [care] nothing for them. If I am right I'll live & if wrong I'll die anyhow — so let them [pass by] unnoticed.'I would playfully say 'That's the way to learn — read both sides'

Mr [Lincoln's] maxim & philosophy were — 'What is to be [will be] and no Cares (prayers) of ours Can [arrest] the decree' I could tell when Mr Lincoln had decided anything: he was cheerful at first then he pressed or compressed his lips together — firmly When these things showed themselves to me I fashioned myself accordingly and so did all others have to do sooner or later, and the world found it out. When we first went to Washington Many thought that Mr Lincoln was weak, but he rose grandly with the Circumstances [and] Men soon learned that he was above [them all.] I never saw a man's mind develope so finely: his manners got quite polished. [He] used to say to me when I talked to him about Chase and those who did him Evil — 'Do good to those who hate you and turn their ill will to friendship' Sometimes in Washington [being] worn down he spoke crabbedly to men — [Harshly so — ] yet it seemed that the People underst[ood the] Conditions around him and forgave.'"
_______________________________________
As for the passage "Mr Lincoln had a dream when down the River at City point after Richmond was taken: he dreamed that the white House burned up" - if she witnessed "Lamon's Lincoln's dream", why didn't she mention it here, too?

---

As for Robert, this is his correspondence with Herndon on the matter of his book (project), and sheds some light on his thoughts on Herndon:

Chicago Oct 1 /1866

My dear Mr Herndon

Yours of Sept 28 is received — I have not any letters which could be of any interest whatever to you or to anyone — You may remember that I did not leave home until my father became so busy in public affairs that it was next to impossible for him to write to me — Accordingly the few letters I have, ranging over a period of five years, are with one or two exceptions letters enclosing money — I was much too young for him to write to me on general matters — at least he never did so — I spoke to my Mother on the subject and she says she had a talk with you on the subject when at Springfield and that her letters are of too private a nature to go out of her hands.

You say also that my father used to write "short poems' — I never knew it before and if I came across any, I would willingly let you see them — I have never seen any thing of the kind —

Yours Sincerely
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Dec 13 /66

My dear Sir:

Your letter of Dec 10 is received and it contains just what I understood to be the result of our conversation at Springfield.

As I said then, I have never had any doubt of your good intentions but inasmuch as the construction put upon your language by everyone who has mentioned the subject to me was so entirely different from your own, I felt justified in asking you to change your expression. Beyond this, I do not wish, nor have I any right to go. Your opinion may not agree with mine but that is not my affair. All I ask is, that nothing may be published by you, which after careful consideration will seem apt to cause pain to my father's family, which I am sure you do not wish to do.

Very sincerely your friend
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Dec 24 1866

My dear Mr Herndon
...
I infer from your letter, but I hope it is not so, that it is your purpose to make some considerable mention of my mother in your work — I say I hope it is not so, because in the first place it would not be pleasant for her or for any woman, to be made public property of in that way — With a man it is very different, for he lives out in the world and is used to being talked of — One of the unpleasant consequences of political success is that however little it may have to do with that success, his whole private life is exposed to the public gaze — that is part of the price he pays. But I see no reason why his wife and children should be included — especially while they are alive — I think no sensible man would live in a glass house and I think he ought not to be compelled to do so against his will. I feel very keenly on this subject, for the annoyance I am subjected to sometimes is nearly intolerable I hope you will consider this matter carefully, My dear Mr Herndon, for once done there is no undoing —

Sincerely your friend
Robert T. Lincoln


Chicago Decr 27 /66

My dear Mr Herndon

Your letter of yesterday is at hand and I am very glad to find that I misunderstood your language and that you do understand my feelings on that subject. There is no need of saying anthing more about it.
...
Very sincerely yours
Robert T. Lincoln