Removing Confederate Generals portraits?

[L Verge]

Kathleen,

First, welcome to the forum. It is always nice to meet new people with the same interests. And, thank you for going the distance and finding the facts. I guess the media is up to its usual tactics of skewing things to suit their agenda. Since I was raised military, it's nice to know that those who defend our country still try to be objective.

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(12-21-2013 07:47 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  

(12-21-2013 06:59 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I realize that, Rob. I was trying to be polite and not say sarcastic and obtuse.

You're so funny.

Best
Rob

Nope, just annoyingly outspoken.

[Gene C]

According to my elf on the shelf, somehow I'm borderline this year for being naughty or nice. ( I tried to find out how you were doing Laurie, but he was reluctant to comment). Since I suspect Santa is a frequent visitor on this site, I'm going to publically disagree with you Laurie and you are not annoyingly outspoken.

(There, that might help us both.)


Kathleen - classy avatar. Welcome to the forum

[BettyO]

Welcome to the forum Kathleen -
Stunning riding habit!

You'll find we have a wonderful group here - and we're always learning something new.

[Rsmyth]

Go to Wikepedis and read the first three paragraphs on Rommel. He was respected by hie troops as well as his enemies. His Afrika Korps was never accused of war Crimes and orders to kill Jewish soldiers was ignored. As an enemy combatant, Rommel would win my respect.

[BettyO]

Agreed, Rick!

My dad fought against Rommel's troops in South Africa during WWII and always had high respect for Rommel and his men.

For some reason, Rommel reminds me a great deal of Mosby -

[Eva Elisabeth]

(12-21-2013 07:25 PM)Kathleen Wrote:  The article didn't provide all of the information and was incorrect.

Hi Kathleen, and thanks! See what the media can do...

As for political correctness - consequence and reason or common sense often don't go along well. We have been undergoing a process of whitewashing history for some years now regarding any celebrity who (even if only accidentally and unwillingly) ever somehow came in touch with Hitler. At present there's a big issue to re-name two nationwide quite famous constructions named after Hindenburg. One is a railway causeway joining the prestigious island of Sylt (Germany's "Martha's Vineyard") to the mainland. It was opened in 1927 and named after the second German President. For all those years neither member of any ethnic group has ever had an issue with these namings, suddenly they are questionable. So far so good, but knowing German thoroughness and consequence I wonder when the first demands will occur e.g. to forbid Wagner's music since he was an ardent and very active anti-Semite.
       
Hindenburgdamm

[BettyO]

I certainly hope Wagner won't be banned.....LOVE his music - always have! A lot of this PC sanctioning is pure garbage - and if it's to "better" things for all people - I don't see it! What about those of us who enjoy Wagner's music, for instance? Isn't that denying US a simple right?

[L Verge]

The following text is excerpted from Forrest's farewell address to his troops on May 9, 1865:

"Civil war, such as you have just passed through naturally engenders feelings of animosity, hatred, and revenge. It is our duty to divest ourselves of all such feelings; and as far as it is in our power to do so, to cultivate friendly feelings towards those with whom we have so long contended, and heretofore so widely, but honestly, differed. Neighborhood feuds, personal animosities, and private differences should be blotted out; and, when you return home, a manly, straightforward course of conduct will secure the respect of your enemies. Whatever your responsibilities may be to Government, to society, or to individuals meet them like men.

"The attempt made to establish a separate and independent Confederation has failed; but the consciousness of having done your duty faithfully, and to the end, will, in some measure, repay for the hardships you have undergone. In bidding you farewell, rest assured that you carry with you my best wishes for your future welfare and happiness. Without, in any way, referring to the merits of the Cause in which we have been engaged, your courage and determination, as exhibited on many hard-fought fields, has elicited the respect and admiration of friend and foe. And I now cheerfully and gratefully acknowledge my indebtedness to the officers and men of my command whose zeal, fidelity and unflinching bravery have been the great source of my past success in arms.

"I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

— N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General
Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps
Gainesville, Alabama
May 9, 1865"

Impact of Forrest's military doctrines:

Forrest was one of the first men to grasp the doctrines of "mobile warfare" that became prevalent in the 20th century. Paramount in his strategy was fast movement, even if it meant pushing his horses at a killing pace, which he did more than once. Noted Civil War scholar Bruce Catton writes:

"Forrest ... used his horsemen as a modern general would use motorized infantry. He liked horses because he liked fast movement, and his mounted men could get from here to there much faster than any infantry could; but when they reached the field they usually tied their horses to trees and fought on foot, and they were as good as the very best infantry.[43]
Forrest is often erroneously quoted as saying his strategy was to "git thar fustest with the mostest." Now often recast as "Getting there firstest with the mostest,"[44] this misquote first appeared in print in a New York Tribune article written to provide colorful comments in reaction to European interest in Civil War generals. The aphorism was addressed and corrected by a New York Times story in 1918 to be: "Ma'am, I got there first with the most men."[45] Though a novel and succinct condensation of the military's Principles of mass and maneuver, Bruce Catton writes:

"Do not, under any circumstances whatever, quote Forrest as saying 'fustest' and 'mostest'. He did not say it that way, and nobody who knows anything about him imagines that he did."[46]

Forrest became well known for his early use of "maneuver" tactics as applied to a mobile horse cavalry deployment. He sought to constantly harass the enemy in fast-moving raids, and to disrupt supply trains and enemy communications by destroying railroad track and cutting telegraph lines, as he wheeled around the Union Army's flank."

Above taken from a bio of Forrest done by the Civil War Trust as well as wikipedia.

I hope that everyone reads at least the first paragraph of the farewell address. Also, I know that many historians have vilified Forrest for two things - the so-called massacre at Fort Pillow and his early activities related to the KKK. It has been my understanding that Union Gen. William T. Sherman conducted an investigation of what happened at Fort Pillow and determined that the forces there had not surrendered, the Union flag was still flying from the fort, and that the men killed were not yet prisoners of war.

As for Forrest's affiliation with the Klan, I thought that he was instrumental in founding it, but soon detached himself from it. As for his military skills, see above. I believe that Lee and Davis even admitted that they had not taken full advantage of the military skills the man had.

[LincolnMan]

I recently attended Wagner's The Flying Dutchman opera with my daughter. She loved it- me not so much. I suppose his works are an aquired taste?

[Rob Wick]

(12-22-2013 12:03 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:  I recently attended Wagner's The Flying Dutchman opera with my daughter. She loved it- me not so much. I suppose his works are an aquired taste?

When I was a college student, I wrote a paper on "Cultural Anti-Semitism in Imperial Germany" using the German historian Heinrich von Treitschke and Wagner as case studies. To put myself in the spirit of the times, I listened to Wagner's entire Ring cycle from start to finish, about 17 hours if I recall. To this day, I can't listen to opera without having bad memories of that weekend. I still love Wagner's music, but only in small doses.

Best
Rob

[J. Beckert]

(12-22-2013 12:01 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The following text is excerpted from Forrest's farewell address to his troops on May 9, 1865:

"I have never, on the field of battle, sent you where I was unwilling to go myself; nor would I now advise you to a course which I felt myself unwilling to pursue. You have been good soldiers, you can be good citizens. Obey the laws, preserve your honor, and the Government to which you have surrendered can afford to be, and will be, magnanimous.

— N.B. Forrest, Lieut.-General
Headquarters, Forrest's Cavalry Corps
Gainesville, Alabama
May 9, 1865"

I've read Forrest's farewell before and it has always struck me as one of the finest I've ever read. His sentiments quoted above are words everyone who goes in harm's way should hear from their leader. Long before I read them, I remember telling subordinates I wouldn't ask them to do anything I wouldn't do (and most likely had done) myself. I think his words regarding reconciliation were profound, given his devotion to his duties.

[BettyO]

I agree, Laurie -

Very truthful, moving sentiments - and yes, a good leader never asks his subordinates to do something that he/she themselves wouldn't do. A true leader puts their subordinates first - before themselves.

[Kathleen]

Thank you. That's me in front of the White House of the Confederacy in Montgomery.

[Liz Rosenthal]

As a Jewish person, I can assure everyone that were we to ban the work of every artist and writer in history who harbored antisemitic views, whether in Germany or some other country, the annals of art and literature would shrink dramatically. As far as I know, and I could be wrong, Wagner wasn't notably more antisemitic than others during his time. The fact is that antisemitism was the default religious-ethnic attitude toward Jews in Europe for nearly two millennia leading up to Wagner's time.. and then up to Hitler's time. It pervaded every level of society. So I don't know where we're going with this discussion.

I'd also like to express support for RSmyth's and Rob Wick's views regarding slavery, the South and the Confederacy in this thread. Guys, you are not alone.

(12-22-2013 09:44 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(12-21-2013 07:25 PM)Kathleen Wrote:  The article didn't provide all of the information and was incorrect.

Hi Kathleen, and thanks! See what the media can do...

As for political correctness - consequence and reason or common sense often don't go along well. We have been undergoing a process of whitewashing history for some years now regarding any celebrity who (even if only accidentally and unwillingly) ever somehow came in touch with Hitler. At present there's a big issue to re-name two nationwide quite famous constructions named after Hindenburg. One is a railway causeway joining the prestigious island of Sylt (Germany's "Martha's Vineyard") to the mainland. It was opened in 1927 and named after the second German President. For all those years neither member of any ethnic group has ever had an issue with these namings, suddenly they are questionable. So far so good, but knowing German thoroughness and consequence I wonder when the first demands will occur e.g. to forbid Wagner's music since he was an ardent and very active anti-Semite.

Hindenburgdamm

[Eva Elisabeth]

(12-22-2013 10:40 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  Wagner wasn't notably more antisemitic than others during his time.

I think he was:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_controversies

(12-22-2013 10:40 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote:  I don't know where we're going with this discussion.

You are right, I didn't want to stir up and lead the discussion anywhere further but just give an(other) example of oddities regarding "political correctness". IMO, Hindenburg wasn't worse than Wagner.