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Lincoln and Ann Rutledge
05-24-2014, 12:53 AM
Post: #80
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge
(05-23-2014 07:46 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  
(05-22-2014 09:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  I personally have never doubted the Rutledge romance. What I do scoff at is the idea that she affected AL for the rest of his life, or that she was necessarily his great love.
I agree on this.
(05-23-2014 12:31 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I also believe that had Lincoln married Anne Rutledge, he never would have been President of the United States. Subsequent events, including the marriage to Mary Todd, as they actually occurred were the course of history.
I agree on this, too, though I wouldn't say "never", but "most likely not".
(05-23-2014 12:31 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I absolutely believe that Anne Rutledge was the love of Lincoln's life...
How do you define "the love of Lincoln's life"?

Everyone loves in a different way, and one can love someone in many different ways and depths, and some can't understand others feel things in a different way.
So, what is the love of one's life? The deepest? The longest? The one that involves the most parameters? For me it would be the deepest, and thenceforth lifelong persistent one. It would imply that there could no further follow. (Your definition might be a different one - then please tell!)

To illustrate: I think most people who marry believe at that very moment they marry the love of their life. For quite many lucky ones it turns out to be like that, but in many cases it does not. IMO it needs quite a long time of proving (a great portion of lifetime) to make this statement a safe and certain one.

Since I believe Abraham Lincoln did love Mary in one or several ways, a love that followed the "Rutledge romance", this would for my definition be inconsistant with one another that Ann R. was Lincoln's love of his life. For the same reason I believe that even if there existed telltale letter passages to Dr. Drake, they were a product of his mindset at that very time - but life went on, and brought a new love®, and in the wedding ring he gave to Mary was engraved "Love is Eternal" (words that match "love of one's life" quite well, don't they?).

The following is AFAIK the only review (to Isaac Cogdal, before he left Springfield for Washington) on his feelings for Ann Rutledge that dates from after he had met Mary and thus could compare:

"I did really - I ran off the track: it was my first. I loved the woman dearly & sacredly: she was a handsome girl - would have made a good loving wife - was natural and quite intellectual, though not highly Educated, I did honestly - & truly love the girl & think often - often of her now." (Wilson/Davis: "Herndon's Informants", p. 383 - Letter from Robert B. Rutledge to William H. Herndon).

This is, I think, exactly how it was, his first love, for most people a special one in lifelong memory, but nevertheless not necessarily the love #1 - A. Lincoln did not say she was the love of his life.

I think the New Salem time was for him what in German we would figuratively call his "Sturm- und Drangzeit", literally "Storm and Drive Period". ("Sturm und Drang" was a proto-Romantic movement in German literature and music, late 1760ies to the early 1780ies, in which individual subjectivity and, in particular, extremes of emotion were given free expression in reaction to the perceived constraints of rationalism imposed by the Enlightenment and associated aesthetic movements.) This period with all it's emotions IMO ended with his marriage, but his marriage persisted till the end of his life.

As for his love to (for?) Mary - allegedly, Abraham Lincoln said to a correspondent of the "Christian Register" at a White House reception: "My wife is as handsome as when she was a young girl and I, a poor nobody, fell in love with her, and what is more, I have never fallen out."...after over twenty years! Of course we don't know how reliable this account is, but the same goes (AFAIK) in the end for all we have on this topic.

However, we can only speculate and believe about this topic, and I think what we (want to) believe about "Lincoln's love life" depends a great deal on our own experiences, dreams, and ideals. So - this is what I believe so far or want to believe. (But I think I argued it quite well.)

PS: One statement by Yoko Ono on John Lennon after his death illustrates my idea of "the love of one's life" quite well: "He was my husband, he was my lover, he was my friend, he was my partner. And - he was an old soldier that fought with me." (I think Abraham and Mary Lincoln did that- they fought together for a long time.)

Please account for the ironic observation made by Joshua Speed in his letter to William Herndon dated November 30, 1866 regarding Lincoln's second decision to marry Mary Todd:

“In the summer of 1841 I became engaged to my wife. He (Lincoln) was here on a visit when I courted her; and, strange to say, something of the same feeling which I regarded as so foolish in him took possession of me and kept me very unhappy from the time of my engagement until I was married. This will explain the deep interest he manifested in his letters on my account.

One thing is plainly discernible; if I had not been married and happy — far more happy than I ever expected to be — he would not have married.” (emphasis added)

I think that Joshua Speed knew from personal and intimate observation more about this Lincoln subject than anyone else living then and anyone living now.

As to the wedding ring Lincoln gave to Mary which was engraved "Love is Eternal," I believe that Lincoln used the ring inscription to manifestly appease Mary for the almost “unforgiveable” insult of leaving her standing at the marriage altar on the first occasion and also to declare for himself his commitment to the marriage, no matter what.

Please read what Professor Michael Burlingame has written about Mary Todd Lincoln and her marriage to Lincoln in his Lincoln Prize winning work Abraham Lincoln, A Life, Volume One – Chapter 6, which has as its title a quote from Abraham Lincoln: “It would just kill me to marry Mary Todd.”

The first paragraph of the chapter contains a quote from Lincoln’s law partner of many years, William Herndon:

“In 1842, Lincoln wed Mary Todd, a woman who was to make his domestic life ‘a burning, scorching hell’ as ‘terrible as death and as gloomy as the grave,’ according to one who knew him very well.”

In the same chapter, there is the following excerpt describing Mary’s character from a man that Lincoln knew quite well in Illinois and whom Lincoln later appointed as an associate justice of the United States Supreme Court, David Davis:

“But even before the tragedy of the assassination, David Davis, alluding to her conduct as First Lady during the Civil War, called her a ‘natural born thief’ for whom ‘stealing was a form of insanity.’ In fact, he thought she was ‘deranged’ as far back as the 1840s.”

But Lincoln stuck by his bargain that "Love is Eternal."

"So very difficult a matter is it to trace and find out the truth of anything by history." -- Plutarch
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Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-18-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rogerm - 07-18-2012, 06:24 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 07-18-2012, 06:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 07-18-2012, 09:31 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - J. Beckert - 07-18-2012, 09:39 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 08:33 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-19-2012, 11:37 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-03-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-03-2017, 02:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rsmyth - 07-19-2012, 08:52 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 07-19-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-19-2012, 11:43 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-19-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 07-19-2012, 02:54 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-19-2012, 01:56 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 08:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 08-01-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-01-2012, 09:20 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 09:33 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-01-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-01-2012, 09:45 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-10-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-10-2012, 08:17 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-10-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-11-2012, 07:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 08-11-2012, 11:35 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-11-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-19-2012, 07:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-19-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 08-19-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 08-19-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - GARY POPOLO - 11-22-2012, 02:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 11-22-2012, 03:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 11-23-2012, 08:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 12-04-2012, 05:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-21-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 07-21-2013, 04:30 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-21-2013, 06:29 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Tom Emery - 07-22-2013, 10:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Tom Emery - 07-22-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 04-19-2014, 05:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-19-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rsmyth - 04-23-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-07-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-22-2014, 05:15 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-23-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-21-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-21-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 05-24-2014 12:53 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 05-24-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-24-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-24-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-25-2014, 07:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-25-2014, 05:18 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-28-2014, 09:38 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-25-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-29-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-28-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-28-2014, 04:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-28-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-29-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-01-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-01-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-26-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-31-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-31-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - BettyO - 05-31-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - BettyO - 05-31-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-01-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-01-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 06-01-2014, 05:41 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 05:27 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-02-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-05-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-02-2014, 06:03 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-02-2014, 09:12 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-02-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 06-16-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-16-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-17-2014, 05:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-19-2014, 07:25 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-17-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Hess1865 - 06-17-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-18-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-19-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-19-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-24-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 04:49 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-28-2014, 10:11 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-29-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-07-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 03:31 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-24-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 05:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-24-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 12:06 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Rob Wick - 06-25-2014, 07:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-25-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-25-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-25-2014, 04:48 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-25-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 06:01 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 06-26-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Wild Bill - 06-26-2014, 08:54 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-26-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-26-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-26-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-27-2014, 05:24 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-27-2014, 01:53 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 01:57 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-27-2014, 03:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-28-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-30-2014, 05:11 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 07:49 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-30-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-30-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-30-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-02-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 07-02-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 07-07-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-02-2014, 07:52 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Angela - 09-03-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 09-03-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-03-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Houmes - 09-03-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 09-05-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 09-06-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-05-2014, 10:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 09-06-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-06-2016, 07:56 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - ELCore - 04-06-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-06-2016, 10:18 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-06-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-06-2016, 12:03 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-08-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Ed Steers - 04-22-2016, 04:38 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-25-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 04-23-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - davg2000 - 04-24-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 04-24-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-26-2016, 05:13 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-26-2016, 07:04 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 04-26-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 04-26-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 04-26-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-04-2016, 11:06 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-05-2016, 05:42 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnMan - 07-05-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 08-22-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Ed Steers - 12-04-2016, 08:17 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-04-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 12-04-2016, 01:35 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-04-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 12-04-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Anita - 12-05-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Houmes - 12-05-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 12-05-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Joe Di Cola - 12-05-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Anita - 12-07-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-07-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-11-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-11-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 06-12-2017, 05:10 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 06-11-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - HerbS - 06-13-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 06-13-2017, 01:15 PM

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