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L Verge · (This post was last modified: 10-15-2018 02:29 PM by L Verge.)

(10-15-2018 12:26 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:
(10-15-2018 04:43 AM)AussieMick Wrote: I notice you ignore my point that the number of losses at Antietam was higher for Union forces than Lee's.

The failure by McClennan to pursue Lee was seen (by every writer and commentator I've read) as being a major error. It led to the war's end being delayed ... and to Lincoln dismissing McClennan. I'd suggest that if you reckon Antietam was anything more than a strategic victory for the North ... then you want your head read.

The following is from my post of July 21, 2018 on the thread titled “RE: The Importance of Numbers”:

Cordelia A.P. Harvey, the wife of the governor of Wisconsin, who, after her husband's death in 1862, persuaded Lincoln to endorse the establishment of a hospital in Madison for Wisconsin soldiers. The source reference that I used is the "Collected Words of Abraham Lincoln," compiled and edited by Don and Virginia Fehrenbacher, at pages 200-201.

At one point in their discussions, Lincoln spoke of the number of men available for the battle of Antietam:

"This war might have been finished at that time if every man had been in his place that was able to be there, but they were scattered hither and thither over the North, some on furloughs, and in one way and another, gone; so that out of 170,000 that the government was paying, only 83,000 could be got for action. The consequence, you know, proved nearly disastrous."

In your considered judgment, AussieMick, would it be possible that President Lincoln was right? If you think that President Lincoln was wrong, maybe you should have “your head read.”

As regards President Trump’s assertions that General Grant had a “drinking problem,” you wrote:

“With all due respect to LincolnMan, [] I think Grant sometimes drank to excess. He wouldn’t be Robinson Crusoe if he did. I don’t think that it affected his decisions. Indeed the fact that he led such a successful life is an enormous credit to him. Ok, I can’t prove any of that but it’s what I deduce from the books I've read.”

Can you name a single noted historian who has written that Grant had a “drinking problem” when he served in the Union army during the American Civil War as he rose in rank from Captain to Lieutenant General? Please cite your source or sources.

The “ball is in your court.” I am retired, also.

I am not retired, but I am taking the afternoon off since I worked all weekend. I like this quote from a Wikipedia page on Grant:

Drinking
Allegations of drinking, whether true, exaggerated or false, have been made about Ulysses S. Grant since his day. Historian Joan Waugh notes, "...one of the most commonly asked questions from students and public alike is, "Was Ulysses S. Grant a drunk?'"[41] Charges of drinking were used against him in his presidential campaigns of 1868 and 1872.[42] In 1868 The Republican Party chose Schuyler Colfax as his running mate hoping that Colfax's reputation as a temperance reformer would neutralize the attacks.[43]

Biographer Edward Longacre says "Many of the anecdotes on which his reputation as a drunkard were built are exaggerations or fabrications... [44] William McFeely notes that modern media typically has falsely stereotyped Grant as a drunk.[45] Contemporary stories of Grant's alleged excessive drinking were often reported by newspaper reporters during his military service in the Civil War[c]. Some of these reports are contradicted by eye witness accounts.[47] There are several other claims of Grant drinking, as he did at the isolated Fort Humboldt, which occasioned his resignation from the Army.[48] The question is how it affected his official duties. [49] Jean Edward Smith maintains, "The evidence is overwhelming that during the Vicksburg campaign he occasionally fell off the wagon. Grant took to drink, but only in private and when his command was not on the line. In a clinical sense, he may have been an "alcoholic", but overall he refrained from drink, protected from alcohol by his adjutant, Colonel John Rawlins, and especially by [his wife] Julia", maintaining that he drank when it "would not interfere with any important movement".[50]

There are no reported episodes while he was president or on the world tour, even though the media was well aware of the rumors and watched him closely. His intense dedication to staying dry proved successful and it not only resolved the alcoholism threat it made him a better decision maker and general. Historian James McPherson maintains Grant's self-discipline in the face of prewar drinking failures enabled him to understand and discipline others.[51] Geoffrey Perret believes that regardless of the scholarly books, however, "one thing that Americans know about Grant the soldier is that he was a hopeless drunkard."[52][53] However, historians overall are agreed Grant was not a drunkard – he was seldom drunk in public, and never made a major military or political decision while inebriated. Historian Lyle Dorsett, said he was probably an alcoholic, in the sense of having a strong desire for hard drink.[54][50] They emphasize he usually overcame that desire. Biographers have emphasized how "his remarkable degree of self-confidence enabled Grant to make a very great mark in the terrible American Civil War".[55]

Let me see if I am clever enough to get those citation numbers transferred to this posting so that we can see where the mentioned authors talked about this. It won't let me copy the number, but here is the list of authors and works starting with #41 citation: Joan Waugh (2009). U. S. Grant: American Hero, American Myth. University of North Carolina Press. p. 40.
Larry J. Sabato; Howard R. Ernst, eds. (2014). Encyclopedia of American Political Parties and Elections. Infobase Publishing. p. 323.
Robert E. Dewhirst; John David Rausch, eds. (2014). Encyclopedia of the United States Congress. Infobase Publishing. p. 107.
Longacre 2006, p. 12.
McFeely 1981, pp. 55,77; Waugh 2009, pp. 39–40.
Mahoney 2016, p. 336.
White 2016, pp. 120, 182, 224.
Years later, Grant said, "the vice of intemperance had not a little to do with my decision to resign." Smith, Jean Edward (2001). Grant. New York: Simon & Schuster, 87–88.
Brands 2012a, pp. 72–73.
Smith 2001, p. 231.
McPherson 2003, p. 589.
Geoffrey Perret (1997). Ulysses S. Grant: Soldier & and President. Random House. p. 432.
"Grant's alleged alcoholism has tarnished his historical reputation." Waugh, Joan. U. S. Grant: American Hero, American Myth, University of North Carolina Press, 2009, p. 40. Accessed 17 July 2017. "Yet, if Americans today remember this Civil War general and two-term U.S. president, they tend to think of a drunken, cigar-smoking military butcher." Sullivan, Meg. "UCLA historian attempts to revive reputation of Union general, Reconstruction president," UCLA Newsroom, 36 Oct. 2009. Accessed 17 July 2017.
Dorsett 1983.
McFeely 1981, p. xiii.

Elsewhere, I read that Bruce Catton and T. Harry Williams (I believe a mentor of Wild Bill) began the "reconstruction" of Grant's reputation as both a good general and a good President in the 1960s. I also suspect that some pseudo-journalists and maybe some Southern-leaning reporters picked up on the fact that Grant had resigned his military career before the Civil War and even stated that his "intemperance" was a big factor in his decision. Being stuck in isolated posts didn't help the situation.

Finally, back to Antietam, I have to agree that the battle caused more deaths than it should had Lincoln had strong generals. When Lee was allowed to escape across the river, Lincoln must have been furious; but like the politician he was, he and his team managed to downplay McClellan's failure and get the EP into people's minds to make the battlefield gore go away.

Me again... Since David L. likes the NY Times, here's an article on Grant's drinking problems from a 2013 Opinionator column:

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20...s-a-spill/

If you are not tired of reading yet (I could be telling you to read Ron Chernow's fairly recent book on Grant), try this:

http://www.historynet.com/ulysses-s-gran...lcohol.htm

(10-15-2018 04:43 AM)AussieMick Wrote: My dad used to say to me, when I was annoying him, "Keep it up ... you'll get tired before I do."
(Whether you're my dad or I am ... depends on your point of view)

... I'm going to be repeating myself, but you are ignoring my points and I'm retired so I have time on my hands and I can keep this up as long as you like ...

I notice you ignore my point that the number of losses at Antietam was higher for Union forces than Lee's.
The failure by McClennan to pursue Lee was seen (by every writer and commentator I've read) as being a major error. It led to the war's end being delayed ... and to Lincoln dismissing McClennan. I'd suggest that if you reckon Antietam was anything more than a strategic victory for the North ... then you want your head read.

I'd better deal with your points ... Lincoln obviously wanted to get the Proclamation out of the way. He was indeed desperate for a victory, not just for the war, but to have it as a precursor for the Proclamation. I suggest he grabbed the idea of Antietam as being 'victory' with both hands ... not surprising. It has happened in other wars that a close finish battle is publicised as a victory.

With all due respect to LincolnMan (he, like you or me, just might wrong) I think Grant sometimes drank to excess. He wouldnt be Robinson Crusoe if he did. I dont think that it affected his decisions. Indeed the fact that he led a such a successful life is an enormous credit to him. Ok, I cant prove any of that but its what I deduce from the books I've read.

This assessment of Antietam from the website of The American Battlefield Trust - formerly the Civil War Preservation Trust: "The bloodiest single day in American military history ended in a draw, but the Confederate retreat gave President Abraham Lincoln the “victory” he desired before issuing the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation five days later." Please note the word "draw" and also the quotes around "victory..."