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L Verge · 01-11-2018, 04:09 PM

Speaking of Harvard brought me to a new revelation regarding Robert and his religion. During my googling into his biography, I noted that his interment in Arlington was conducted by a Congregational Church minister. Sad to say, I did not even know that such a denomination existed until I was in my 30s and worked with many New Englanders on a certain project. Since I hesitate to discuss religion, I never asked them what their faith practiced. Seeing that word "Congregational" again sent me to the computer this time.

I did know that Mary Todd Lincoln had been raised as a Presbyterian (except for a period when she went to live with her sister and attended the Episcopal Church). Her uncle, Dr. John Todd, had begun the First Presbyterian Church of Springfield in his own home and influenced his niece.

With my being an Episcopalian, I also knew that Presbyterians had been part of the Separatist/Independent movement - breaking away from the Church of England (matriarch of the American Episcopalians) and mainly composed of Scottish folk. (I never checked, but weren't the Todds of Scottish descent?). Well, the Congregationalists separated from the Presbyterians in order to achieve more self-autonomy for each congregation to conduct their own affairs without the edicts from a central, theological administration (as in the system of bishops in the Episcopal Church and the elders in the Presbyterian Church). However, they were never as radical as the Baptists and Quakers.

Mary Lincoln turned back to her Presbyterian roots while her husband was trying to deal with his religious doubts. One source said that Eddie Lincoln was buried by the then-minister of the First Presbyterian Church, the Reverend Doctor James Smith, and that Mr. Lincoln was so impressed that he visited Dr. Smith after that to discuss religion. Dr. Smith was later quoted that Mr. Lincoln "cast off his doubts and became a believer in Christianity."

Congregationalists in America were mainly centered around Massachusetts and its sister colonies during the 1600s and 1700s, and many had come over on the Mayflower. One of the strong beliefs of the faith was to support education. One of their earliest acts was to start a college that would train learned ministers for the church. Thus was founded Harvard College in 1636, under the auspices of the American Congregationalists.

And where did Robert Todd Lincoln complete his education? At Harvard, an institution founded by Congregationalists whose separatist ties meshed with the Presbyterians, the backbone of his mother's family. Evidently, the Congregationalist influence of his college days (he did take religion courses) spread over to his adult life (though I found no evidence of how faithful he was). As for his wife and at least one daughter switching to the preachings of Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Science faith, I'm not going any further.

Anita · (This post was last modified: 01-11-2018 06:17 PM by Anita.)

(01-10-2018 08:24 PM)ScholarInTraining Wrote:
(01-10-2018 06:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Thanks for your reply, Kerry. Yes, that is what I read, so I am curious as for the evidence Scholar in training thinks challenging to the biographers opinion.

As for the ultimatum - yes, most likely not totally seriously meant, however, I'd find it a striking statement, also the one you are thinking of (‘If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time.’). Somehow there seemed some resentment unless both never said.

Hey, sorry for not answering, but you obviously never have "time to argue" with anyone who has good things to say about Robert Lincoln! So - I'll respect your wishes by directing you instead to Amazon and Google Books, where you may preview Emerson and Goff's books and search, as you will, for the topic you choose.

Chock-full of references, also. So future sarcastic comments can be redirected towards those, yes?

Scholar in Training, in post #121 you state " And to answer your question, he didn't seem to be an atheist at all. He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff - so I don't get why biographers got to calling him "nonreligious" among other things.

Kerry states in post #136 "Emerson cites correspondence between Lincoln scholars which resulted in agreement that Robert never joined a church and rarely mentioned religious faith or prayer."

Eva replies to Kerry in post 138 "Thanks for your reply, Kerry. Yes, that is what I read, so I am curious as for the evidence Scholar in training thinks challenging to the biographers opinion."

So Scholar in Training, why don't you just answer Eva's request for the quotes and letters to support your statement? Like Roger, I am also confused. Roger states in post #142 "Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can tell, all Eva is asking is that examples from Robert's quotes and letters be posted to support this; I do not think she is being sarcastic - she is simply asking to see specific evidence of Robert's views on God."

This is a forum, a community engaged in learning. We want to know about the quotes and letters you refer to so we can better understand the subject we're discussing. We are always open and eager to find new sources.

Laurie,

Speaking of Harvard and your post, I thought this interesting. From the "Crimson" http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1888/1...er-to-the/

Harvard's Reputation
NO WRITER ATTRIBUTED January 26, 1888

In answer to the question "Why has Harvard so poor a reputation in the country at large," President Eliot said that, in his opinion, it was largely owing to religious grounds. Forty years ago Harvard was a sectarian college belonging to the Unitarians, who were then greatly disliked by other denominations. Although Harvard is no longer sectarian, religious hatred still makes men ready to believe anything bad which may be said of it, while they refuse to credit any representations to the contrary. Then, too, we have more rich men's son's here than any other college possesses, and rich men's sons are, as a rule, wild and extravagant, and by their actions tend to bring the whole college into disrepute. The chief reason, however, for our "bad eminence" is the readiness which the newspapers show to discredit all colleges, and Harvard, as the largest, gets the greatest share. There is a natural hostility between college-bred men and those who are "self-made," to which class belong the majority of journalists, and this enmity expends itself in spreading false rumors and injurious statements. The only thing that we can do is to live down this bad reputation by conducting ourselves properly as students and as graduates, and by spreading a know ledge of the true state of things whenever there is a chance. This way is already being taken, and we may be confident that we shall yet succeed completely.

L Verge · 01-11-2018, 07:09 PM

(01-11-2018 06:08 PM)Anita Wrote:
(01-10-2018 08:24 PM)ScholarInTraining Wrote:
(01-10-2018 06:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Thanks for your reply, Kerry. Yes, that is what I read, so I am curious as for the evidence Scholar in training thinks challenging to the biographers opinion.

As for the ultimatum - yes, most likely not totally seriously meant, however, I'd find it a striking statement, also the one you are thinking of (‘If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time.’). Somehow there seemed some resentment unless both never said.

Hey, sorry for not answering, but you obviously never have "time to argue" with anyone who has good things to say about Robert Lincoln! So - I'll respect your wishes by directing you instead to Amazon and Google Books, where you may preview Emerson and Goff's books and search, as you will, for the topic you choose.

Chock-full of references, also. So future sarcastic comments can be redirected towards those, yes?
Scholar in Training, in post #121 you state " And to answer your question, he didn't seem to be an atheist at all. He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff - so I don't get why biographers got to calling him "nonreligious" among other things.

Kerry states in post #136 "Emerson cites correspondence between Lincoln scholars which resulted in agreement that Robert never joined a church and rarely mentioned religious faith or prayer."

Eva replies to Kerry in post 138 "Thanks for your reply, Kerry. Yes, that is what I read, so I am curious as for the evidence Scholar in training thinks challenging to the biographers opinion."

So Scholar in Training, why don't you just answer Eva's request for the quotes and letters to support your statement? Like Roger, I am also confused. Roger states in post #142 "Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can tell, all Eva is asking is that examples from Robert's quotes and letters be posted to support this; I do not think she is being sarcastic - she is simply asking to see specific evidence of Robert's views on God."

This is a forum, a community engaged in learning. We want to know about the quotes and letters you refer to so we can better understand the subject we're discussing. We are always open and eager to find new sources.

Laurie,

Speaking of Harvard and your post, I thought this interesting. From the "Crimson" http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1888/1...er-to-the/

Harvard's Reputation
NO WRITER ATTRIBUTED January 26, 1888

In answer to the question "Why has Harvard so poor a reputation in the country at large," President Eliot said that, in his opinion, it was largely owing to religious grounds. Forty years ago Harvard was a sectarian college belonging to the Unitarians, who were then greatly disliked by other denominations. Although Harvard is no longer sectarian, religious hatred still makes men ready to believe anything bad which may be said of it, while they refuse to credit any representations to the contrary. Then, too, we have more rich men's son's here than any other college possesses, and rich men's sons are, as a rule, wild and extravagant, and by their actions tend to bring the whole college into disrepute. The chief reason, however, for our "bad eminence" is the readiness which the newspapers show to discredit all colleges, and Harvard, as the largest, gets the greatest share. There is a natural hostility between college-bred men and those who are "self-made," to which class belong the majority of journalists, and this enmity expends itself in spreading false rumors and injurious statements. The only thing that we can do is to live down this bad reputation by conducting ourselves properly as students and as graduates, and by spreading a know ledge of the true state of things whenever there is a chance. This way is already being taken, and we may be confident that we shall yet succeed completely.

Thanks for posting this, Anita. I found it interesting that some of the sentences may be just as applicable to our society today as in the 1800s. BTW: In one of the pieces that I read on the Congregational Church, I remember there being mention of a (brief?) union between Unitarians and Congregationalists. I wonder which faith was the "true founder" of Harvard?

So far as I could tell, the Congregationalists did/do believe in the Trinity. I'm going to have to brush up on the Unitarians because I thought that they believed only in God. I have often wondered if Lincoln followed some of our early Founding Fathers who professed to be Deist - believing that a supreme God created everything and left it to man to screw it all up (oops, pardon, to have free will).

Anita · (This post was last modified: 01-11-2018 09:22 PM by Anita.)

(01-09-2018 08:31 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many historians feel the Cooper Union Address delivered on February 27, 1860, propelled Abraham Lincoln to the 1860 Republican nomination.

I am curious if anyone has an opinion....was Robert exaggerating?....would Abraham Lincoln not have accepted the invitation to speak in New York City had the trip not also afforded the opportunity for him to visit his son at Exeter?

In Holtzer's book, "Lincoln At Cooper Union", Contrary to one of the most stubbornly enduring of Cooper Union legends, Lincoln did not seize the chance to speak in the East just to get a free cross-country trip to the East to see his boy. The future publisher George Haven Putnam, who would witness the Cooper Union address, later fueled the myth in a 1909
biography that pointed to Robert himself as the source of the story.

"I heard from Robert Lincoln" insisted Putnam, "that his father had in January been planning to make a trip Eastward to see the boy..." but had postponed it when a client failed to pay the fee he needed to pay for the trip. Then came further word, "Some men in New York have asked me to come speak to them and have sent me money for the trip. I can manage the rest of the way."

Robert Lincoln was alive and well when Putnum introduced this fantastic tale, and the fact that Robert didn't move quickly to correct it, as he often did when writers misrepresented his father, suggest that he rather enjoyed believing it himself. However it is not true. His father had already accepted and scheduled his trip east well before January. He already knew he would earn a two hundred dollar honorarium reconfirmed in November. Lincoln was hardly dependent on a legal fee to finance a trip to New York.

(01-10-2018 12:53 PM)kerry Wrote: Eva, until you posted that piece from Keckley, I never noticed that the ending line is different from what Robert supposedly told a friend. In that telling, Lincoln told him he could go to law school if he wished, but wouldn't have nearly as much fun as he did, and Robert jested about the lack of serious career advice. My take on it would be that he said something rather lighthearted about Robert giving law a try, and moving on from the war. I don't read it as an ultimatum, but who knows the exact wording.

Kerry, from what I have determined these are two different statements made on two different occasions.

Emerson "Giant in the Shadows" Chapter 5 page 88
At some point in his upper-class years Robert decided his profession after graduation would be the law, just like his father...On his return to Washington after his graduation, Robert again approached his father about enlisting. ... Lincoln deferred to Mary who still refused permission...Robert vented his frustration to his father that summer when the President asked his future plans and the son retorted that since he cou;d not join the army, he would go back to Cambridge to the law school. Robert recalled his father saying, "If you become a lawyer, you will probably make more money at it than I ever did, but you won't have half the fun."

Keckly(Thanks Eva)
" On the day President Lincoln was assassinated, Captain Robert Lincoln breakfasted with the family. After Robert showed the President a picture of General Robert E. Lee, Mr. Lincoln told Robert: ‘It is a good face; it is the face of a noble, noble, brave man. I am glad the war is over at last.’ Looking up at Robert, he continued: ‘Well, my son, you have returned safely from the front. The war is now closed, and we soon will live in peace with the brave man that have been fighting against us. I trust that the era of good feeling has returned with the war, and henceforth we shall live in peace. Now listen to me, Robert: you must lay aside your uniform, and return to college. I wish you to read law for three years, and at the end of that time I hope that we will be able to tell whether you will make a lawyer or not.”

ScholarInTraining · 01-11-2018, 08:25 PM

(01-10-2018 10:02 PM)L Verge Wrote: Well, one thing this thread has proven is that Robert Lincoln will remain a controversial character in history!

Scholar - you will be hard pressed to find someone as well-read on the Lincolns as Eva, and she consistently cites her sources in a wide variety of fields (not just Robert). I'm a used history teacher and now a museum director, and I have already noted that you have done a good deal of reading and learning about the Lincolns. All Eva is asking is that you provide definite sources; I don't feel that outright sarcasm was intended.

Are you aware that she is also a native of Germany, who has left the teaching field and enrolled in veterinary medicine studies in Vienna, Austria? It is amazing to me (knowing what she is going through in her studies) that she has any time to share her knowledge of history with us. Please continue your training in history and please continue to post your thoughts on this forum. I have learned so much from the postings here over the past five years.

We all get frustrated sometimes when we get feedback we don't want to hear, but that's very natural when dealing with the study of history -- too many opinions on one subject can cause historic headaches. Bear with us.

(*Sigh*) Thanks. And I agree with what you said. I just don't like to see opinion so get in the way of factual discussion that an educatory environment becomes hostile. I've seen it happen to myself (and others!) in Internet boards all the time; I cannot accept that with forbearance.

But that's neither here nor there. As of this moment, I'll gladly "cite my sources" for anyone who asks! Smile

But reasonably. Heart

kerry · 01-11-2018, 10:18 PM

I know Harvard definitely was heavily Unitarian-influenced because of the controversy over Emerson. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_School_Address

He was banned from speaking there after questioning Unitarian beliefs -- not that it stopped him from speaking.

At that time, college was not considered an essential thing; it was basically seen as extravagance, given how many people educated themselves in other ways. I see Lincoln's comments about law school as reflecting that view, and personally I think we need to go back to embracing self-education. It's not for everyone, but it worked well for many people like him for most of human history. In the aftermath of Lincoln's death, several articles mention that Robert had intended to practice law with his father. Lincoln probably would have enjoyed mentoring him. It's very interesting and sad to think how his family would have turned out had he lived.

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-11-2018 10:47 PM by kerry.)

(01-11-2018 07:27 PM)Anita Wrote:
(01-09-2018 08:31 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many historians feel the Cooper Union Address delivered on February 27, 1860, propelled Abraham Lincoln to the 1860 Republican nomination.

I am curious if anyone has an opinion....was Robert exaggerating?....would Abraham Lincoln not have accepted the invitation to speak in New York City had the trip not also afforded the opportunity for him to visit his son at Exeter?

In Holtzer's book, "Lincoln At Cooper Union", Contrary to one of the most stubbornly enduring of Cooper Union legends, Lincoln did not seize the chance to speak in the East just to get a free cross-country trip to the East to see his boy. The future publisher George Haven Putnam, who would witness the Cooper Union address, later fueled the myth in a 1909
biography that pointed to Robert himself as the source of the story.

"I heard from Robert Lincoln" insisted Putnam, "that his father had in January been planning to make a trip Eastward to see the boy..." but had postponed it when a client failed to pay the fee he needed to pay for the trip. Then came further word, "Some men in New York have asked me to come speak to them and have sent me money for the trip. I can manage the rest of the way."

Robert Lincoln was alive and well when Putnum introduced this fantastic tale, and the fact that Robert didn't move quickly to correct it, as he often did when writers misrepresented his father, suggest that he rather enjoyed believing it himself. However it is not true. His father had already accepted and scheduled his trip east well before January. He already knew he would earn a two hundred dollar honorarium reconfirmed in November. Lincoln was hardly dependent on a legal fee to finance a trip to New York.

(01-10-2018 12:53 PM)kerry Wrote: Eva, until you posted that piece from Keckley, I never noticed that the ending line is different from what Robert supposedly told a friend. In that telling, Lincoln told him he could go to law school if he wished, but wouldn't have nearly as much fun as he did, and Robert jested about the lack of serious career advice. My take on it would be that he said something rather lighthearted about Robert giving law a try, and moving on from the war. I don't read it as an ultimatum, but who knows the exact wording.

Kerry, from what I have determined these are two different statements made on two different occasions.

Emerson "Giant in the Shadows" Chapter 5 page 88
At some point in his upper-class years Robert decided his profession after graduation would be the law, just like his father...On his return to Washington after his graduation, Robert again approached his father about enlisting. ... Lincoln deferred to Mary who still refused permission...Robert vented his frustration to his father that summer when the President asked his future plans and the son retorted that since he cou;d not join the army, he would go back to Cambridge to the law school. Robert recalled his father saying, "If you become a lawyer, you will probably make more money at it than I ever did, but you won't have half the fun."

Keckly(Thanks Eva)
" On the day President Lincoln was assassinated, Captain Robert Lincoln breakfasted with the family. After Robert showed the President a picture of General Robert E. Lee, Mr. Lincoln told Robert: ‘It is a good face; it is the face of a noble, noble, brave man. I am glad the war is over at last.’ Looking up at Robert, he continued: ‘Well, my son, you have returned safely from the front. The war is now closed, and we soon will live in peace with the brave man that have been fighting against us. I trust that the era of good feeling has returned with the war, and henceforth we shall live in peace. Now listen to me, Robert: you must lay aside your uniform, and return to college. I wish you to read law for three years, and at the end of that time I hope that we will be able to tell whether you will make a lawyer or not.”

My guess would be Robert joked around about the Cooper Union thing and some people took it seriously. I feel like most of their relationship was wry, and with Robert Lincoln's dry manner of retelling and Lincoln's saintly image, it was retold with exaggerated solemnity. But that's just speculation.

(01-11-2018 10:23 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:
(01-11-2018 07:27 PM)Anita Wrote:
(01-10-2018 12:53 PM)kerry Wrote: Eva, until you posted that piece from Keckley, I never noticed that the ending line is different from what Robert supposedly told a friend. In that telling, Lincoln told him he could go to law school if he wished, but wouldn't have nearly as much fun as he did, and Robert jested about the lack of serious career advice. My take on it would be that he said something rather lighthearted about Robert giving law a try, and moving on from the war. I don't read it as an ultimatum, but who knows the exact wording.

Kerry, from what I have determined these are two different statements made on two different occasions.

Emerson "Giant in the Shadows" Chapter 5 page 88
At some point in his upper-class years Robert decided his profession after graduation would be the law, just like his father...On his return to Washington after his graduation, Robert again approached his father about enlisting. ... Lincoln deferred to Mary who still refused permission...Robert vented his frustration to his father that summer when the President asked his future plans and the son retorted that since he cou;d not join the army, he would go back to Cambridge to the law school. Robert recalled his father saying, "If you become a lawyer, you will probably make more money at it than I ever did, but you won't have half the fun."
Michael Burlingame, The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln, p. 61 has the entire quote and context of Robert's version, I'm sorry I don't have it here to check Burlingame's source:
‘I returned [after graduating] from college in 1864 and one day I saw my father for a few minutes. He said: ‘Son, what are you going to do now?’ I said: ‘As long as you object to my joining the army, I am going back to Harvard to study law.” Lincoln cooly replied, ‘If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time.’ Robert added resentfully,’That is the only advice I had from my father as to my career.'

The actual quote does not include the words "coolly" or "resentfully" -- that's definitely speculation by Burlingame. The quote comes from a journalist who knew him, who was told the story while they played golf. He released the story shortly after Robert's death. It's highly likely that he was paraphrasing, and that Robert was making light conversation, not confessing a deep resentment. It also leaves out that the reason Robert gave, according to this person, was that something might happen to Robert in the army that would cause him "more official embarrassment" than his military service would offset. I have always felt this was at least as big a consideration of Lincoln's as Mary's mental state. Imagine how much the Confederacy would have loved him as a hostage, or how anyone, even on the Union side, would have liked to blow up any little mistake or alleged assertion of status. Reading the James Edward Kelly interviews published by Styple, you get a lot of glimpses of things normally not discussed. One person claims Robert tried to get a train to transport him and his horse at City Point so he wouldn't have to ride - far from a big deal, but exactly the sort of thing that would have gotten blown up in the papers. Robert's temperament also did not seem conducive to the horrors of war. I think an underexplored issue is how many political hits Lincoln willingly incurred based on his indulgence of his family, rightly calculating he had the political capital to withstand them and that the alternative could be worse. I know the Helms are the source for Mary being the underlying reason, but personally I believe that book to be largely fictionalized. I interpret the "that's the only advice I received" comment to be less resentful than acknowledging that Lincoln wasn't pushy in that manner. I think by the end of the Civil War, had Robert told him he wanted to be an opera singer, Lincoln would have said "that's nice, have fun." Anything besides the War. He wanted peace and didn't micromanage his family.

Susan Higginbotham · 01-11-2018, 11:54 PM

Besides the Helm book, Keckley's book also mentions Mary's opposition to Robert's joining the army. I do agree that Lincoln may have found it personally convenient to go along with her, though.

RJNorton · 01-12-2018, 07:18 AM

According to Jean Baker, in 1863 Mary told Senator Ira Harris:

"Robert is making his preparations now to enter the Army; he is not a shirker – if fault there be it is mine, I have insisted that he should stay in college a little longer as I think an educated man can serve his country with more intelligent purpose than an ignoramous."

L Verge · 01-12-2018, 10:31 AM

Just a side bar reference to Putnam Publishing: Again, with a touch of irony, members of the family who claim that John Wilkes Booth married their matriarch and fathered at least one daughter (and then escaped) later married into the Putnam Publishing Company. I met several of them years ago when they went on our Booth Escape Route bus tours - wonderful folks and just as confused about their true lineage as we are.

kerry · 01-12-2018, 11:45 AM

(01-12-2018 07:18 AM)RJNorton Wrote: According to Jean Baker, in 1863 Mary told Senator Ira Harris:

"Robert is making his preparations now to enter the Army; he is not a shirker – if fault there be it is mine, I have insisted that he should stay in college a little longer as I think an educated man can serve his country with more intelligent purpose than an ignoramous."

That's from the Helm book, I believe.

Yes, Keckley's book also says it. The 'official story' is definitely that it was Mary's objection. I just find it likely that Lincoln found her objection convenient, as Susan wrote. If he really wanted him in there, he could have found him a relatively safe position earlier.

kerry · (This post was last modified: 01-12-2018 05:55 PM by kerry.)

(01-12-2018 05:20 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Re. :"The actual quote does not include the words 'coolly' or 'resentfully' -- that's definitely speculation by Burlingame.

Sorry, Kerry, it was late - I should have edited the quotation marks correctly. "Lincoln cooly replied," and "Robert added resentfully" are Burlingame's framing text. The rest is Robert's.

No apology needed -- I just wanted to give the context, because in this case it definitely makes a difference. What I assume is the original account is here: https://www.newspapers.com/image/5988300...y%2Blaw%22

Reading it again, it's not totally clear what men of great affairs miss much of what lesser men enjoy meant - that Lincoln was too busy to give advice or that Harvard was a "great affair" that took away from the fun of learning law elsewhere.

kerry · 01-12-2018, 10:15 PM

(01-12-2018 09:15 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Wow - thanks much, kerry, you share quite some good "stuff"!

As for what "men of great affairs miss much of what lesser men enjoy" - the context of "you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time" it almost seems logically to convert to Robert being the man of great affairs who missed so good a time as his (lesser?) father did enjoy???

Thanks! I agree with your interpretation.

ScholarInTraining · 01-13-2018, 02:35 AM

(01-10-2018 08:32 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I did take a lot of time to come up with precise examples and o-sources. None of the anyones who have good things to say has done such so far. I was asking you to corroborate your vague claim and say what exactly you had in mind. Obviously you had something in mind, and it was not an sarcastic but honest request. Sarcastic seems to refer me to search the biographers you said yourself not to agree with. Not very scholarly to escape this way IMO.

Hahaha, who's escaping? Let's be civil.

Time to break it all down. This will be lengthy.

While RTL and his father may not have been the "pomp and circumstance" type of Christians, so to speak, that doesn't mean they didn't believe in God or a Higher Power.

The trouble with the word "nonreligious" is that too many people use it as a go-to word to describe people who doesn't regularly go to church or participate in rituals like Mass.

There's "nonreligious", which means 'not relating to or believing in a religion' and then there's "irreligious", which is 'the absence, indifference, rejection of, or hostility towards religion". Nonreligion is strongly suggestive of atheism, which there was no evidence of.

The only evidence of irreligious Lincoln-related words I've come across so far were Mary Todd Lincoln's when she wrote her "it does not appear that God is good" 1875 letter after she was hospitalized...as well as her spiritual practices in later years, but that is another story.

Now I can imagine why a quote such as "thank God" "God willing" or "God only knows" being viewed as some to be a mere figure of speech - even atheists use the phrase- but here's the thing: Robert did not actively discourage anything related to God, encouraged others to put their trust in Him, and made references to Him - for example, remember his Galesburg speech? The one when he said that "we should never cease our thanks to God that their offered gift (dead soldier's lives) was not in vain"? That had to have been around 1896 or so. Anyway, it isn't like he was trying to imitate his father's speeches. If he were irreligious or atheist, he would have left even that single sentence about God out of it. The same could go for any time he or his father mentioned God ever. If they were nonreligious, or irreligious as the word "nonreligious" connotes, they wouldn't have said anything about Him. In a "being" sense, I mean, rather than a conversational piece.

As for RTL's interest in astronomy, it's studying stars and constellations. Not a nonreligious thing at all. Biographers over time must have taken this and ran with it as "evidence" of Robert being a nonreligious person. But you know what, it isn't. It's just a fun and educative hobby.

I mean, come on, astronomers were around for centuries and still had religious beliefs. Science and religious beliefs do not have to be an "either or" thing.

Maybe they got his interest in astronomy mixed up with astroLOGY, which is seen as occult to some.[/i]

As for the controversial moment when Robert wouldn't allow a Catholic church to be built on the PMR. Irreligion in action? An act against Catholicism???

Nah. I remember that Emerson wrote something like "his refusal, endorsed by Army General Sherman, was based on his opposition to nongovernmental use of federal land without a sanctioning act of Congress."

Now to get back to the topic, more definitions: "religion" itself is defined as 'the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods'. So Deism, the idea that God does not interfere directly with the world, isn't suggestive of "nonreligion" at all, given that the belief in God remains. Theism, a belief in God or gods, and Deism are often used as interchangeable terms. The difference is that Deism rejects revelation (truth or knowledge revealed through communication with deities - remember, they don't believe that God interferes with human actions). Deists pray prayers of thanks and appreciation, not wanting to "dictate" to God.

Given that RTL, after the assassination, told his mother to put her "trust in" God and all would be well (rather than "faith in") seems to suggest a Deist view. (Deists feel that the word "faith" has acquired a different meaning over time, having been "abused" by various religions. So they avoid the word.)

So! I'm not going to jump to conclusions and say that RTL was for sure an 100% confirmed Deist, just that his words and actions suggest it - or simple Theism- rather than actual conclusive "nonreligion".

RJNorton · 01-13-2018, 06:32 PM

(01-13-2018 09:37 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: As for the words to his mother, can someone share the original source? Thanks much.

Eva, I have seen that quote in more than one book I own but never with a source. The books all say "an observer" heard or "a witness" heard, but never identify who the person was who heard Robert say this. I, too, hope someone can post the original source.

One of the books I have that includes this quote with no source is Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals. (p. 742)