I'm pretty sure Emerson meant Robert was the giant. He definitely had talents and accomplishments, the latter of which were inextricably linked to his fame, which should be taken into account but not held against him. It's fairly clear his becoming Secretary of War was almost entirely due to his name, but it's not like he was totally incompetent at it. I wouldn't characterize him as a giant, and he did not see himself that way. As I've said many times, I appreciate the complexity of the Mary-Robert relationship and they aren't in competition with each other, but I will say I don't think it's fair for people to dismiss Myra Bradwell as a mere troublemaker (not saying anyone did, but it just comes up). She personally knew Mary well and was a very impressive woman. She was at least as much acting as a friend as an agitator, and if she was being an agitator, well, things needed agitating! I don't think she would have tried to get Mary out if she thought she was a danger, and she declined to participate in railing against Robert, Swett, etc. She appears to have been acting from good motives based on good information. Her position was that Mary no longer needed to be institutionalized; the debate is always about whether or not she should have been at all, when really the debate going on with Myra was whether it should continue. She wasn't alone in thinking Mary had stabilized enough; institutionalizing someone long-term is very serious. The thing that gets me is that yes, the women tend to come across as somewhat querulous and disruptive, but that's in large part because it was the *only* avenue available to them. Myra had been turned away from legitimate legal channels, and Mary was given a "special legal friend" at her trial. If they weren't going to get a dignified rebuttal, they had to use the press.

(12-16-2017 09:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  (and he wasn't the smartest at Harvard).

Robert seems to have felt that his difficulties as a student was an influencing factor in his father becoming President.

David C. Mearns wrote, "Robert would later say that had he not failed in his first attempt at college, and had not that failure aroused in his father an anxiety for his development, Abraham Lincoln would not have come East, would not have delivered the Cooper Institute address and eleven others en route to New Hampshire, would not have acquired a national reputation, and consequently would not have been nominated for the presidency."

Because Robert failed the Harvard entrance examinations, he spent 1859-1860 at Phillips Exeter Academy in New Hampshire.

Regarding the Cooper Union Address, Harold Holzer has written:

"Had Abraham Lincoln failed at his do-or-die debut in New York, he would never have won his party's presidential nomination three months later, not to mention election to the White House that November. Such was the impact of a triumph in the nation's media capital. Had he stumbled, none of the challenges that roiled his presidency would ever have tested his iron will."

Many historians feel the Cooper Union Address delivered on February 27, 1860, propelled Abraham Lincoln to the 1860 Republican nomination.

I am curious if anyone has an opinion....was Robert exaggerating?....would Abraham Lincoln not have accepted the invitation to speak in New York City had the trip not also afforded the opportunity for him to visit his son at Exeter?

(01-09-2018 08:31 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Many historians feel the Cooper Union Address delivered on February 27, 1860, propelled Abraham Lincoln to the 1860 Republican nomination.

I am curious if anyone has an opinion....was Robert exaggerating?....would Abraham Lincoln not have accepted the invitation to speak in New York City had the trip not also afforded the opportunity for him to visit his son at Exeter?

I have read that Robert was somewhat embarrassed by his father's appearance. The way he looked, the clothes he wore, his mid western way of talking. Robert's friends seemed to be more impressed with Mr. Lincoln and what he had to say than Robert did. That's not uncommon, to Robert he was just "Dad". To everyone else, he was an important national figure. Robert didn't see him that way.

IMO, Lincoln would have gone to NY City, regardless of what Robert was doing, but it probably helped that Robert was in Exeter. I believe other speaking opportunities came as a result of his Cooper Union address, since it was printed in many of the New England newspapers and was well received.

Wow! I did not realize that it was our own Donna McCreary who found the Mary Harlan Lincoln letter about burying Robert with his place in the sun... "For 70 years, a number of theories were put forth about why he was not buried with the family. Not until 1997 was the mystery solved, when a letter written by his widow was discovered that said she had been struck "as if by inspiration" to give him burial in Arlington because, "He was his own man, made his own history, and deserves his own ‘place in the sun.’" The letter, then in a private collection, was found by Donna D. McCreary and HistoryNet‘s editor Gerald D. Swick."

That said, I am still at a loss as to what qualified him to be Secretary of War under two Presidents and then the U.S. Minister to the UK -- other than the prestige attached to the name "Lincoln" and the heritage of his father. I keep googling different sites, and it appears that his only real action as Secretary of War was calling out U.S. troops during the Cincinnati riots (after they were almost over). As for his diplomatic position, he was the last U.S. "Minister" to England. After Robert, our men were called Ambassadors to the Court of St. James.

One source went so far as to say that "both periods of [Robert's] public service were largely uneventful." Another flat out said that he made his wealth from being a lawyer in the corporate field. It would be interesting to know who did the work, Robert or his partner Isham.

I really am not anti-Robert; I just think that he made his name by using (selfishly or not) his father's legacy.

Robert was not a giant. His mere competence at being a corporate attorney and ambassador is much more than most could achieve, however. He was of above-average intelligence, had a solid work ethic, was organized, and was able to come across as inoffensive and in line with decorum (however much value you place on these things, a lot of people value them). A lot of that was luck, but some of it seems to be effort. He would never have gotten his position as secretary of war or minister to England without his name; there is no question as to that. But he also did not disqualify himself from either position by any known slip ups or lack of diligence. He clearly made his name using his father's legacy, but I don't think he did it selfishly - I think it is true that others pushed it for him. His legal success seems to have been at least partly due to his own ability and client rapport. Having the firm name Lincoln clearly helped, but that was his name.

(01-09-2018 05:13 PM)kerry Wrote:  Robert was not a giant. His mere competence at being a corporate attorney and ambassador is much more than most could achieve, however. He was of above-average intelligence, had a solid work ethic, was organized, and was able to come across as inoffensive and in line with decorum (however much value you place on these things, a lot of people value them). A lot of that was luck, but some of it seems to be effort. He would never have gotten his position as secretary of war or minister to England without his name; there is no question as to that. But he also did not disqualify himself from either position by any known slip ups or lack of diligence. He clearly made his name using his father's legacy, but I don't think he did it selfishly - I think it is true that others pushed it for him. His legal success seems to have been at least partly due to his own ability and client rapport. Having the firm name Lincoln clearly helped, but that was his name.

I appreciate that reply because it does admit to the fact that much of Robert's claim to fame came as a result of his famous name. I don't think he consciously used that name selfishly either; I think he was just accustomed to it being his ticket into the world.

I also think that he was perfectly happy being a lawyer and that his political appointments were just that - appointments made at the urging of the Republicans to win favor with constituents. At least he was smart enough to repeatedly turn down offers of the Presidency (wonder if the threat of assassination was always in the back of his mind as he turned down the offers).

BTW: We think of him being a very wealthy man, but one source quoted his wealth at time of death as $1 million. In the 1920s, I don't consider this a fortune.

(01-09-2018 06:49 PM)L Verge Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 05:13 PM)kerry Wrote:  Robert was not a giant. His mere competence at being a corporate attorney and ambassador is much more than most could achieve, however. He was of above-average intelligence, had a solid work ethic, was organized, and was able to come across as inoffensive and in line with decorum (however much value you place on these things, a lot of people value them). A lot of that was luck, but some of it seems to be effort. He would never have gotten his position as secretary of war or minister to England without his name; there is no question as to that. But he also did not disqualify himself from either position by any known slip ups or lack of diligence. He clearly made his name using his father's legacy, but I don't think he did it selfishly - I think it is true that others pushed it for him. His legal success seems to have been at least partly due to his own ability and client rapport. Having the firm name Lincoln clearly helped, but that was his name.

I appreciate that reply because it does admit to the fact that much of Robert's claim to fame came as a result of his famous name. I don't think he consciously used that name selfishly either; I think he was just accustomed to it being his ticket into the world.

I also think that he was perfectly happy being a lawyer and that his political appointments were just that - appointments made at the urging of the Republicans to win favor with constituents. At least he was smart enough to repeatedly turn down offers of the Presidency (wonder if the threat of assassination was always in the back of his mind as he turned down the offers).

BTW: We think of him being a very wealthy man, but one source quoted his wealth at time of death as $1 million. In the 1920s, I don't consider this a fortune.

Agreed, and I do think his wealth has been somewhat exaggerated because of his anti-union positions and the contrast with his beginnings etc. Certainly he was wealthy, but it wasn't crazy. Being an attorney is not a ticket to wealth the way people assume - especially now, but even then. It was a fairly reliable way of becoming comfortable, but you are billing by the hour - the hours are limited. You can't accumulate tens of millions. His wealth came from corporate life. That is a far more reliable road to wealth. His government salaries weren't very high. His strongest skill seems to have been as an organizer - multiple times in life boards appointed him to get things in order.

I remember there being letters related to his interest in space where he hinted more at a lack of belief, but nothing explicit. I think he at times referenced God, but in a generic way.

Until you posted that piece from Keckley, I never noticed that the ending line is different from what Robert supposedly told a friend. In that telling, Lincoln told him he could go to law school if he wished, but wouldn't have nearly as much fun as he did, and Robert jested about the lack of serious career advice. My take on it would be that he said something rather lighthearted about Robert giving law a try, and moving on from the war. I don't read it as an ultimatum, but who knows the exact wording.

ETA: Emerson cites correspondence between Lincoln scholars which resulted in agreement that Robert never joined a church and rarely mentioned religious faith or prayer.

(01-10-2018 06:01 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Thanks for your reply, Kerry. Yes, that is what I read, so I am curious as for the evidence Scholar in training thinks challenging to the biographers opinion.

As for the ultimatum - yes, most likely not totally seriously meant, however, I'd find it a striking statement, also the one you are thinking of (‘If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time.’). Somehow there seemed some resentment unless both never said.

Hey, sorry for not answering, but you obviously never have "time to argue" with anyone who has good things to say about Robert Lincoln! So - I'll respect your wishes by directing you instead to Amazon and Google Books, where you may preview Emerson and Goff's books and search, as you will, for the topic you choose.

Chock-full of references, also. So future sarcastic comments can be redirected towards those, yes?

Well, one thing this thread has proven is that Robert Lincoln will remain a controversial character in history!

Scholar - you will be hard pressed to find someone as well-read on the Lincolns as Eva, and she consistently cites her sources in a wide variety of fields (not just Robert). I'm a used history teacher and now a museum director, and I have already noted that you have done a good deal of reading and learning about the Lincolns. All Eva is asking is that you provide definite sources; I don't feel that outright sarcasm was intended.

Are you aware that she is also a native of Germany, who has left the teaching field and enrolled in veterinary medicine studies in Vienna, Austria? It is amazing to me (knowing what she is going through in her studies) that she has any time to share her knowledge of history with us. Please continue your training in history and please continue to post your thoughts on this forum. I have learned so much from the postings here over the past five years.

We all get frustrated sometimes when we get feedback we don't want to hear, but that's very natural when dealing with the study of history -- too many opinions on one subject can cause historic headaches. Bear with us.

Thanks, Laurie, much appreciated support. (I can tell tell from experience that being able or unable to provide and cite sources or other evidence
to the point decides on failing or not failing in science, and that above way would kick you out instantly. Just the working standards I am trained to obey and apply.)

BTW - I remember this site you might like to check out, Laurie, if you haven't already:
http://strangeside.com/lincolns-chiropod...-zacharie/

(01-08-2018 01:54 PM)ScholarInTraining Wrote:  And to answer your question, he didn't seem to be an atheist at all. He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff - so I don't get why biographers got to calling him "nonreligious" among other things.

Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I can tell, all Eva is asking is that examples from Robert's quotes and letters be posted to support this; I do not think she is being sarcastic - she is simply asking to see specific evidence of Robert's views on God.

(01-09-2018 10:01 AM)Gene C Wrote:  IMO, Lincoln would have gone to NY City, regardless of what Robert was doing, but it probably helped that Robert was in Exeter. I believe other speaking opportunities came as a result of his Cooper Union address, since it was printed in many of the New England newspapers and was well received.

Lincoln delivered 12 speeches in 4 states (if I have counted correctly) during his eastern tour, from Feb. 27th through March 10th. He also declined numerous invitations to speak.

The Lincoln Log: February 26th - March 11th, 1860.

BTW - I remember this site you might like to check out, Laurie, if you haven't already:
http://strangeside.com/lincolns-chiropod...-zacharie/

Thanks for this link, Eva. I didn't realize that Zacharie played such an elevated role in the Lincoln administration - lots more, it appears, than just shaving off corns and calluses. Wouldn't you love to have been a fly on the wall when he met with Judah Benjamin? Wonder if the two made contact in England after the war...

Also, the note about the peace plan that he supposedly worked on earlier in the war with the Confederacy being given the opportunity to conquer Mexico isn't far-fetched. The Knights of the Golden Circle had that in mind for the Southern planters years before the Civil War even started.

---

Moving back to Robert, here's an interesting tidbit on his Harvard days from that wonderful site, Abraham Lincoln Online: http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/linc...arvard.htm

I think college was totally different then - so few people could afford to send their kids, and there were so many alternative career paths, that it just was not all that competitive or rigorous. The really prestigious institutions were in Europe. I think Robert was intelligent, but getting into Harvard was not anywhere near as high a bar as it is now. Most lawyers were self-educated, and being an apprentice was probably viewed as more valuable in terms of real-world knowledge. Holmes, who said it was a disgrace, was probably pretty snobby about those tings, but he thought they could get degrees with little class attendance or work. It was more of a social club. The same criticism was made in that paragraph of Cambridge - basically, wealthy white men just had to put in their time and they had a job network for life. That being said, people like Sumner did pretty well out of Harvard Law, intellectually if not financially. In 1870 they adopted the modern law school exam format, which from experience I can say is not easy. The dean who whipped Harvard into shape in 1870 opposed women's admission way longer than a lot of other schools - "the law is entirely unfit for the feminine mind."