Lincoln & Herndon

[RJNorton]

Over the years I have searched and searched for the exact date the ring was purchased and have drawn a blank. I think the date is lost to history. Most books say it was purchased at Chatterton's jewelry shop. At least one book says Mary went with Abraham to be fitted for the ring. Many books simply talk about Abraham purchasing the ring. It gets confusing.

[Gene C]

(07-13-2014 11:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Well, Laurie...according to certain "experts" the engraving was not Mr. Lincoln's idea. Mary insisted that he do it.

You seem as though your a bit skeptical of the "experts", which I am in this case. IMO since we know Lincoln liked to read poetry, and even write a little, there was probably a bit of the romantic in Mr. Lincoln. Even thought they had a short engagement, they had known each other a respectful amount of time. Who knows know long they had talked privately about getting married.

[Eva Elisabeth]

What might the ring (such a ring) have cost in those days? (Your estimates?)

[RJNorton]

Eva, I have no idea, but I did check Harry's Pratt's Personal Finances of Abraham Lincoln, and it's not in there.

[L Verge]

(07-13-2014 11:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Well, Laurie...according to certain "experts" the engraving was not Mr. Lincoln's idea. Mary insisted that he do it.

And let me guess who those "experts" are...

[LincolnToddFan]

(07-14-2014 07:20 AM)Gene C Wrote:  

(07-13-2014 11:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Well, Laurie...according to certain "experts" the engraving was not Mr. Lincoln's idea. Mary insisted that he do it.

You seem as though your a bit skeptical of the "experts", which I am in this case. IMO since we know Lincoln liked to read poetry, and even write a little, there was probably a bit of the romantic in Mr. Lincoln. Even thought they had a short engagement, they had known each other a respectful amount of time. Who knows know long they had talked privately about getting married.

Excellent point Gene, I could not agree more. In fact, in her ill-advised interview with Herndon in 1866 MTL said that her husband had "poetry in his nature".

It is a known fact that they rekindled their relationship in the summer of 1842 and were meeting in secret at least three months before the wedding. Something tells me that they didn't spend all that time discussing Whig politics!

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(07-14-2014 10:24 AM)L Verge Wrote:  

(07-13-2014 11:47 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Well, Laurie...according to certain "experts" the engraving was not Mr. Lincoln's idea. Mary insisted that he do it.

And let me guess who those "experts" are...

Laurie,

Online just this past weekend, I read the opinion of a young doctoral student at George Washington U on the Abraham/Mary relationship. This girl opined that it is a well known fact that MTL "regularly beat both her husband and children". We don't have to guess who this student's primary source is. It's just as I predicted. An entire new generation of scholars is going to be influenced by the anti-Mary rants of the neo-Herndon, and that was probably at least partially the intent all along.

[Angela]

(07-14-2014 10:38 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Laurie,

Online just this past weekend, I read the opinion of a young doctoral student at George Washington U on the Abraham/Mary relationship. This girl opined that it is a well known fact that MTL "regularly beat both her husband and children". We don't have to guess who this student's primary source is. It's just as I predicted. An entire new generation of scholars is going to be influenced by the anti-Mary rants of the neo-Herndon, and that was at probably at least partially the intent all along.

That sounds like superficial work all in itself if she quoted Herndon when we now have HIS sources at hand. To me it always makes sense to read certain, and often overused, quotes in context.

[L Verge]

(07-14-2014 09:42 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  What might the ring (such a ring) have cost in those days? (Your estimates?)

I finally found a chart that gives the price of one ounce of gold through the 1800s to 2010. In 1840, one ounce was worth $21. How many ounces would it take to make a lady's ring? $21 stayed pretty much steady until 1865 when it went up to $30 and then back down to $21 and steady again until 1935, when it rose to $35 and kept on going up. In 2010, the last year given, one ounce was $1410. The U.S. seems to set the gold standard.

I also found reference to Queen Victoria having one of the first Victorian engagement rings. It sounds dreadful - a serpent with an emerald eye. The serpent represents wisdom and eternity, and the emerald was Victoria's birthstone. It was not until the late-1800s that diamond engagement rings became popular. If a woman received a ring, it was usually her birthstone. BTW: Victoria and Albert were married in 1840, just two years ahead of Abraham and Mary -- and the same year as John and Mary Surratt.

The serpent engagement ring reminded me of my daughter's fiance who had every intention of designing a ring for her with two porpoise heads attached by a single diamond. She did manage to talk him out of that.

[RJNorton]

(07-14-2014 07:41 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The serpent represents wisdom and eternity

I wonder if William Herndon knew that.

[Gene C]

(07-14-2014 07:41 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The serpent engagement ring reminded me of my daughter's fiance who had every intention of designing a ring for her with two porpoise heads attached by a single diamond. She did manage to talk him out of that.

A little off the subject, but that reminded me of something

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEOeTX1LqM

[LincolnToddFan]

(07-15-2014 05:08 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(07-14-2014 07:41 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The serpent represents wisdom and eternity

I wonder if William Herndon knew that.

LOL!! He could have been paying Mary Todd an exquisite compliment, if only she had realized it, it might have changed history!

[Eva Elisabeth]

I tried to find out more on when and where wedding rings for men became customary. I drew a blank on when exactly it started in Europe, and to what extend, but it definitely did (in Continental Europe) earlier than in the USA.

Ancient Egyptians and Romans had already sealed marriages with wedding ringes, and about 860 the Christians used the ring in marriage ceremonies. It usually was highly decorated with engraved doves, lyres, or two linked hands. The Church discouraged such rings as ‘heathenish’ and, around the 13th century, wedding rings were considerably simplified, and given a more spiritual look which was very aptly expressed by a Bishop when he dubbed it a “symbol of the union of hearts.”

The wedding ring was not only a symbol of eternal love and devotion, but also symbolic for the exchange of valuables at the moment of the wedding. It is a relic of the times when marriage was a contract between families, not individual lovers. Both families were then eager to ensure the economic safety of the young couple.

In the United States, the use of wedding rings for both partners first began with little success in the late 19th century with a marketing campaign the jewelry industry started. In the 1940ies, changing economic times, and the impact of World War II (soldiers appreciated having this "connection" to their wifes with them) led to a more successful marketing campaign for male and female wedding bands, and by the late 1940s, double-ring ceremonies made up 80% of all weddings, as opposed to 15% before the Great Depression.

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(07-14-2014 07:41 PM)L Verge Wrote:  The U.S. seems to set the gold standard.

Reminds me of this:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock

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Laurie once asked about the relationship/mutual opinion of A. L. and his stepfather which were obviously positive. What about Mary and the Lincolns? She didn't accompany her husband when he visited his stepmother the last time, did she? Did she meet Dennis Hanks when he came to the White House? Did she ever comment on her husband's family/relatives or "background"?

[Eva Elisabeth]

As for Abraham Lincoln's opinion of the Todd family - though we've argued that he might have appreciated into this "aristocratic" clan, what was his opinion of such "status"? As often, I don't recall where and I'm not sure whether he really said this, but he's quoted saying: "One 'd' was enough for God's name, but not for the Todds." If he said this it sounds he was somewhat opposed to the Todd family's self-image?

[RJNorton]

(07-18-2014 08:59 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  As for Abraham Lincoln's opinion of the Todd family - though we've argued that he might have appreciated into this "aristocratic" clan, what was his opinion of such "status"? As often, I don't recall where and I'm not sure whether he really said this, but he's quoted saying: "One 'd' was enough for God's name, but not for the Todds." If he said this it sounds he was somewhat opposed to the Todd family's self-image?

Hi Eva. Here is the story as I understand it:

One evening Abraham Lincoln mentioned the fact that David Tod, the wartime Governor of Ohio, who had declined Lincoln's invitation to succeed Salman P. Chase as Secretary of the Treasury, had occasion to visit Washington in 1863 on government business. During an interview with President Lincoln, the President remarked, "You are perhaps aware, Governor, that my wife is a member of the Todd family of Kentucky, and they all spell their name with two d's. How is it that you use but one?"

David Tod replied, "Mr. President, God spells his name with one d, and one is enough for the Governor of Ohio."

[LincolnToddFan]

There is a great book about AL's relationship with his Todd in-laws called "The House of Abraham: Lincoln and the Todds, A Family Divided by War" authored by Stephen Berry in 2005. It covers the Todds and how AL related and thought about them in great detail. Basically he was very, very good to them, very loyal and tolerant. Much more so than they were to him. It's a fantastic read.. disturbing and even unintentionally funny at times.