President Lincoln and the Sioux Indian uprising in Minnesota in 1862

[L Verge]

I don't know what schools educated you, Liz, but you sure weren't in one of my classes! I taught the pimples along with the dimples and was well within the curriculum guidelines.

[J. Beckert]

A bunch of savages murdered innocent men, women and children on a whim concocted over stealing property (eggs) and they get a pass for it? I guess that explains the L.A. riots after the Rodney King verdict, looting after Katrina, et al., ad nauseum.....

[Liz Rosenthal]

(08-15-2013 07:34 PM)L Verge Wrote:  I don't know what schools educated you, Liz, but you sure weren't in one of my classes! I taught the pimples along with the dimples and was well within the curriculum guidelines.

Really? Well, if you taught your students about Indian genocide, you were a mighty unusual teacher, and you were also very lucky you didn't have parents flocking to the principal to complain that their children were being taught to hate Americans.

[Rob Wick]

If you look at the way American History has been taught in the public schools over the course of the 20th century, it was generally done in such a way as to inculcate patriotism, especially during the times of massive immigration (to show newcomers the greatness of their adopted country) and during the Cold War (as an object lesson showing the benefits of democracy vs. communism). Personally, it wasn't until i got to college that I discovered there was another side to American history. James Loewen has made a pretty good career out of showing what textbooks have left out.

As for those "savages" it seems obvious that Lincoln must have thought something was wrong with the verdicts or he wouldn't have taken the political risk of commuting the sentences of so many. What Rodney King or Katrina has to do with this dicussion I have no idea, so I won't comment on that.

Best
Rob

[J. Beckert]

It is obvious that Lincoln disagreed and was the voice of reason regarding the initial verdicts. He did the right thing, as the intial response was swift and heavy handed. Hopefully the savages that started the conflict by taking innocent lives were on the gallows when justice was handed down.

My reference to the Rodney King verdict riots and Katrina was to illustrate that acting like savages should not be excused under any circumstances, especially if a class feels wrongful treatment condones it. The American Indians were dealt a bad hand by the U.S. in scores of dealings. It's part of our history and we've learned from it. It's no reason to preach how evil the U.S. is. No other country in the history of the world has done more to address prior wrongs. That's something to be proud of.

[L Verge]

I suspect that Liz and Rob are expressing opinions drawn from their own experiences as students, so please don't taint the whole field of history teachers for the shortcomings of your educational system.

I might also add that I taught right outside Washington, D.C. during the Cold War and the Vietnam War. It was pretty hard not to discuss both sides of American history issues from exploration days to the present. And, I taught students from all ability levels -- children of tenant farmers on through high ranking military families (even the niece of General Westmoreland). History and current events of the day could be woven together for some very interesting discussions.

To me as a professional educator, the important thing to stress then and now were how many of the mistakes were driven by the forces and beliefs of any given era AND WERE THEN CORRECTED by succeeding generations. That is the best purpose of any education - religious or secular - that good things can come out of bad situations if a citizenry works on solutions together.

I guess WORK is the key word to me: Work to understand what caused things to happen; work for solutions; work for improvements instead of whining about what happened in the past; work for your income instead of expecting government handouts -- or waiting for the opportunity to loot your local Walmart.

I said I was going to regret posting about the Sioux warriors...! What I thought would be an interesting sidebar as to how they handled their fate is turning into another disgruntled love fest on wayward American behavior.

[Rob Wick]

I don't know too many historians who preach how evil the United States is. I have read a number of historians who have provided a more mature view of the situations in which we as a nation have gone through. It seems that some in our society aren't interested in that but prefer the glossed-over version. And while I agree that as a society we have made attempts to address those things we've done wrong, we are a far distance from overcoming a number of things.

Best
Rob

[L Verge]

Just a quick response to Liz's accusatory disbelief: Yes, I REALLY did teach about the disgraceful treatment of the Native Americans under the guise of Manifest Destiny. I guess that makes me a remarkable teacher. It might also make me a historian who did more than teach just what was printed in textbooks - 95% of which were published in the North.

I might also add that I was raised by a mother who had a very soft spot in her heart for the American Indians and contributed generously for many years (until her death at age 94) to their projects involving the education of their children.

[Gene C]

I remember in the late 60's and 70's there were very public protest about injustice to American Indians. That was about the time the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" was published. Also the time of Indian occupation of Alcatraz. Discusion of this was mentioned in my school.

[My Name Is Kate]

Are history textbooks still giving a lopsided rosy version of America's past and present conduct, or has that been reversed and is now lopsided the other way? God forbid that we have a balanced, truthful account.

I remember very little (about anything) of what was taught to me in school. It's probably just as well.

Who was the #1 superpower before America? And prior to that, who was it? What was their conduct like, in comparison to America's? I bet America is less of a bully than some have been, not that it makes it OK.

[L Verge]

Try England, France, and Spain at various times flexing their power to achieve empires - or the Romans, Greeks, and Ottomans or the Monguls or the cavemen with the biggest tree limbs! In far more cases than America, I believe those civilizations were the aggressors. I also think that America has often been the force that went in to save others -- accepting refugees from war-torn areas, freeing concentration camps in World War II, the Berlin Airlift, the Civil Rights Act, prison reform, programs for the disabled and the elderly, women's suffrage, cleaning up the messes that other societies have made...

Of course for some, no matter how much the government does, it is not enough. I agree with Kate that we have now turned into a nation of fault-finders. That is unfortunate. There will never be perfect equality in all areas of life. That's not human nature, and we will never see Utopia.

[My Name Is Kate]

Even a Utopia would not be good enough for anyone who is out for revenge for past wrongs (which most likely were not even done to them personally). They want to tear down what exists and replace it with something that will satisfy their craving to do unto others as (they imagine) was done unto them. It is a religion with them. They are always seeking the very worst in everyone and everything. They can't understand why they aren't at the top of the heap, where they know they rightfully belong. You could call it narcissism.

If it were the slaughtered "native" Americans who could come back and voice their opinion of this country, or the enslaved "African" Americans, I could understand their grievances. But not some of these spoiled Americans doing the complaining in the present. OTOH, maybe they have a legitimate complaint, since it's the government that helped spoil them and take away their initiative for constructive accomplishment.

[Hess1865]

(08-17-2013 09:54 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Try England, France, and Spain at various times flexing their power to achieve empires - or the Romans, Greeks, and Ottomans or the Monguls or the cavemen with the biggest tree limbs! In far more cases than America, I believe those civilizations were the aggressors. I also think that America has often been the force that went in to save others -- accepting refugees from war-torn areas, freeing concentration camps in World War II, the Berlin Airlift, the Civil Rights Act, prison reform, programs for the disabled and the elderly, women's suffrage, cleaning up the messes that other societies have made...

Of course for some, no matter how much the government does, it is not enough. I agree with Kate that we have now turned into a nation of fault-finders. That is unfortunate. There will never be perfect equality in all areas of life. That's not human nature, and we will never see Utopia.

Amen Laurie!

[L Verge]

(08-17-2013 09:48 PM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:  Even a Utopia would not be good enough for anyone who is out for revenge for past wrongs (which most likely were not even done to them personally). They want to tear down what exists and replace it with something that will satisfy their craving to do unto others as (they imagine) was done unto them. It is a religion with them. They are always seeking the very worst in everyone and everything. They can't understand why they aren't at the top of the heap, where they know they rightfully belong. You could call it narcissism.

If it were the slaughtered "native" Americans who could come back and voice their opinion of this country, or the enslaved "African" Americans, I could understand their grievances. But not some of these spoiled Americans doing the complaining in the present. OTOH, maybe they have a legitimate complaint, since it's the government that helped spoil them and take away their initiative for constructive accomplishment.

Excellent summation, Kate.

[Thomas Thorne]

[quote='Rob Wick' pid='22895' dateline='1376659716']
I don't know too many historians who preach how evil the United States is.

I suppose Howard Zinn might be the most famous. There has been a spate of recent articles about Zinn. who despite condemnation by reviewers across the political spectrum, made a fortune from his "People's History of the United States". and is a favorite of the extreme left.

I must disagree with the idea that Laurie Verge's pupils were the only students in the United States who were taught about the travails of the American Indian and that Americans were ignorant about the subject.

I remember being read to in the 4th grade by my partly Native American teacher, a childrens' book about a real New York woman named Mary Jamieson who was kidnapped by Indians and lived happily thereafter as an Indian.

The teacher suffered no ill treatment for reading this book to us. She even sent me a postcard one summer showing Mary Jamieson's grave.

There is a myth that classic Hollywood never showed mistreatment of Native Americans. Off the top of my head I can think of seven popular movies made no later than 1954 that did so. This includes works by writers like Zane Gray and directors like John Ford with stars such as John Wayne and Errol Flynn.

It is easy for us to condemn our ancestors for their treatment of Native Americans. Words are cheap. No one has proposed the most morally correct solution of having their descendants give the country back to the descendants of the dispossessed and head back to Europe.
Tom