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RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 05-30-2014 08:48 AM
(05-30-2014 05:40 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(05-29-2014 10:50 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Mary was frantic and wanted to cancel it immediately. The president insisted that it was too late to cancel, and the family doctor assured them both that Willie was in no danger. Both Mary and AL left the party at frequent intervals to sit at the bedside of their child.Despite that, Willie died 15 after the reception. At that point in time it was as well possible he would recover.
David, as for your post #108, I'm sorry, but if mentioning the Lincoln's discussion about Robert's military service was intended to prove the Lincolns had a bad marriage or A. Lincoln did not love his wife, could you please explain why you think so? I don't.
I can't believe that you don't understand Mary wasn't willing to lose another son, or doubt A. Lincoln, in his role as a father, understood, and as a father most likely shared Mary's respective fears and objections? Of course, Especially since he himself was still grieving about Willie's death? Of course, being the president, he couldn't other but consent. Don't you think he, too, was glad about the solution that Robert got a post where he was not danger of any involvement in fighting? (In case Mary had instantly consented, wouldn't you have considered her a bad, non-protective mother?)
My point was the point that Lincoln made and that was that other mothers througout the nation not only lost one son in the Civil War in the cause of the Union but in some cases two, three, or all of her sons. Abraham Lincoln was President of the United States and she was the First Lady of the United States. How can the President and the First Lady ask the mothers of the nation to risk the lives of their sons in combat while the President's son was attending Harvard, safe and sound? For the life of me, I do not understand why you cannot understand that very simple concept. Perhaps you should read over the narrative which I typed out a couple dozen times.
But I have a (quite related) question: Roger wrote on another thread: "Regarding Mr. [William] Wood Jean Baker writes, 'At some point Mary Lincoln and William Wood had become friends and possibly more.' I think I have read the 'possibly more' implication in at least one other book."
Hi Eva. I now remember the other book. It was in Michael Burlingame's The Inner World of Abraham Lincoln. If you have access to that book please see p. 292.
Eva, I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014 09:04 AM
It seems to me that Burlingame (and I haven't read his work) seems to repeat alot of the same arguments and comments that are atrributed to Herndon where it comes to being critical of Mary and her marriage.
However, I do understand Abraham' comments about his son Robert serving in the army, and naturally Mary's hesitancy about him serving.
David, while I disagree with some of the things you have written, I am enjoying the conversations and the hopefully polite give and take. You are offering me a different perspective that I haven't always considered
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014 10:47 AM
Eva,
When you are ready to prepare your thoughts on William Wood and the so-called relationship with the First Lady, let me know because we have an extensive file on the gentleman at the James O. Hall Research Center at Surratt House. The basis of the file comes from the research conducted by Mr. Hall years ago; however, one of our staff historians, Joan Chaconas (our Washington, D.C. history expert) expanded on Mr. Wood's information a few years ago while preparing for a symposium talk on Old Capitol Prison. In fact, she got quite fascinated with this sly gentleman.
I just asked her if she found anything to suggest a "meaningful" relationship with Mrs. Lincoln. She emphatically said, "NO!" There were references to their being friends, but nothing deeper. I do remember from working with her on the symposium talk that both of us were astonished at how "friendly" Mr. Wood was with quite a few people -- and it appeared that he carefully chose whom to be friends with at any certain moment. The man was slick, sly, and worthy of any modern CIA, B-rated drama.
As far as Burlingame's writing, I am not a fan and literally tossed Inner World down after reading about half of it, and never picked it up again except to donate it to a used book sale table at Surratt House. I was also present at a talk that he gave at the LGDC where members of the audience got up and left in the middle because of the blatant blasting he was doing of Mrs. Lincoln.
For years, we had been under the belief that Presidential historian Michael Beschloss was going to be writing the definitive biography of Mr. Lincoln. The next thing we heard was that Dr. Burlingam was being touted as doing it. Would love to know the story behind the switch.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 05-30-2014 11:24 AM
(05-29-2014 01:24 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: I just read another poster wondering whether AL would have gotten cold feet at the altar with Ann Rutledge. We will never know of course, but I am more than a little convinced that much of what attracted AL to Rutledge was the fact that she was basically UNAVAILABLE. She was engaged to another man, and her ability to marry AL depended on whether or not she could be released from her engagement to John McNamar.
Incidentally David[Lockmiller] there is no real proof that AL and AR were ever officially engaged, let alone that there was any "well planned" wedding in the offing. John McNamar later said that as far as he knew, he and Ann were still going to marry. He bought furniture for their new home. He and Lincoln remained friends after Ann's death. There are several extent letters from Lincoln to McNamar, who he calls "Mack". Is that likely to have been the case if AL had bird-dogged the guy's fiancée?
I note that the analysis of the Ann Rutledge story by other posters on this subject relies almost entirely on the work of J. G. Randall to support their claims.
However, Professor David Herbert Donald in his Pulitzer Prize winning book "Lincoln" expressed some reservations about the standard for proof of facts utilized by Randall (page 609, footnote 55):
Moreover, Randall showed that the basic facts concerning the [Ann Rutledge] affair could not be proved in a court of law, where the firsthand testimony of two independent witnesses would be required. On the other hand, the court of history usually accepts a less rigorous standard of proof; indeed, if Randall's criteria were applied, almost nothing could be unquestionably proved about the first thirty years of Lincoln's life. With these problems in mind, scholars have recently undertaken a reexamination of the Ann Rutledge story. For their findings, from which I have learned a great deal, see John Y. Simon, "Abraham Lincoln and Ann Rutledge," Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association 11 (1990): 13-33, and Douglas L. Wilson, "Abraham Lincoln, Ann Rutledge, and the evidence of Lincoln's informants," Civil War History 36 (Dec. 1990): 301 - 324. For a more general attempt to restore faith in Herndon's credibility, see Douglas L. Wilson, "William H. Herndon and His Lincoln Informants," Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association 14 (Winter 1993): 15-34.
In considering the arguments made by posters who characterized other posters supporting Herndon's assessment of the Ann Rutledge story as being part of a "male gossip" conspiracy, I suddenly thought of a question. Why have none of the pro-Mary protaganists not made any reference whatsoever to the work of the world's undisputed leading female Lincoln scholar, Ida Tarbell? I know that there is one poster on this website who was recently writing a book on the papers of Ida Tarbell but I do not recall a single post by this person being made on the subject of the Ann Rutldge engagement to Abraham Lincoln.
I "smelled a rat" and accordingly went down to the library and got a copy of a book written and published by Ida M. Tarbell in 1896 entitled "The Early Life of Abraham Lincoln." All of the "male gossip" conspiracy theorists who have posted on this thread should read from Chapter XVII entitled "Lincoln's First Acquaintance with Ann Rutledge - The Story of Their Love" and specifically from the section of that chapter entitled "Ann's Engagement to Lincoln" at pages 214 - 18. I quote below from this section as proof that they were engaged and Lincoln's deep feelings for Ann.
It was not until McNeill, or McNamar, had been gone many months, and gossip had become offensive, that Lincoln ventured to show his love for Ann, and then it was a long time before the girl qould listen to his suit. Convinced at last, however, that her former lover had deserted her, she yielded to Lincoln's wishes, and promised, in the spring of 1835, soon after Lincoln's return from Vandalia, to become his wife. But Lincoln had nothing on which to support a family -- indeed, he found it no trifling task to support himself. As for Ann, she was anxious to go to school another year. It was decided that in the autumn she should go with her brother to Jacksonville and spend the winter here in an academy. Lincoln was to devote himself to his law studies; and the next spring, when she returned from school and he was a member of the bar, they were to be married.
A happy spring and summer followed. New Salem took a cordial interest in the two lovers, and presaged a happy life for them; and all would undoubtedly have gone well if the young girl coud have dismissed the haunting memory of her old lover. The possibility that she had wronged him; that he might reappear; that he loved her still, though she now loved another; that perhaps she had done wrong -- a torturing conflict of memory, love, conscience, doubt, and morbidness lay like a shadow across her happiness, and wore upon her until she fell ill. Gradually her condition became hopeless; and Lincoln, who had been shut from her, was sent for. The lovers passed an hour alone in an anguished parting, and soon afte, on August 25, 1835, Ann died. (page 214)
But though he had regained self-control, his grief was deep and bitter. Ann Rutledge was buried in Concord cemetery, a country burying ground seven miles northwest of New Salem. To this lonely spot Lincoln frequently journeyed to weep over her grave. "My heart is buried there," he said to one of his friends.
When McNamar returned (for McNamar's story was true, and, two months after Ann Rutledge died, he drove into New Salem, with his widowed mother and his brothers and sisters in "prairie schooner" beside him) and learned of Ann's death, he "saw Lincoln at the post office," as he afterward said, and "he seemed desolate and sorely distressed." Within a year he married another woman; and his conduct toward Ann Rutledge is to this day a mystery.
Many years ago a sister of Ann Rutledge, Mrs. Jeane Berry, told what she knew of Ann's love affairs; and her statement has been prserved in a diary kept by the Rev. R. D. Miller, now Superintendentof Schools of Menard County, with whom she had the conversation. She declared that Ann's "whole soul seemed wrapped up in Lincoln," and that they "would have been married in the fall or early winter" if Ann had lived. "After Ann died," said Mrs. Berry, "I remember that it was common talk about how sad Lincoln was; and I remember myself how sad he looked. They told me that every time he was in the neighborhood after she died, he would go alone to her grave and sit there in silence for hours."
In later life, when his sorrow had become a memory, he told a friend who questioned him: "I really and truly loved the girl and think often of her now." There was a pause, and then he added: "And I have loved the name of Rutledge to this day." (pages 217 - 18)
Professor David Herbert Donald in his book "Lincoln" also made reference to this conversation with Isaac Cogdal at pages 57-58:
Many years later, after his first election as President, he began talking with an old friend, Isaac Cogdal, about early days in New Salem, asking the present whereabouts of many of the early settlers. When the name of Rutledge cam up, Cogdal ventured to ask whether it was true that Lincon had fallen in love with Ann. "It is true -- true indeed I did," Lincoln replied, if Cogdal's memory can be trusted. "I loved the woman dearly and soundly: she was a handsome girl -- would have made a good loving wife. . . . I did honestly and truly love the girl and think often -- often of her now."
By the way, based on her scholarship, Ida Tarbel offered her own opinion of the marriage of Lincoln to Mary Todd. I quote from Professor Burlingame's book "Abraham Lincoln, A Life" Vol One at page 196:
Ida Tarbell, who queried many friends and relatives of the Lincolns, stated that Abraham and Mary "were utterly unsuited for sympathetic companionship. I doubt if Mary Todd had the faintest conception of the meaning of the words."
This exact quote referece made by Ida Tarbell was referenced as follows (page 196, footnote 209): Ida Tarbell to T. A. Frank Jones, n.p., 12 Dec. 1922, copy, Tarbell papers, Allegheny College.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 05-30-2014 11:51 AM
Personally, and I believe it has been stated by others here, I believe that Abraham Lincoln did love Ann Rutledge and did grieve over her death. However, I also believe that, like most normal people, he got over the loss and found someone else who intrigued him enough to marry and start a family.
The fact that Ann Rutledge may have been a polar opposite to Mary Todd does not make Mary the evil shrew as some disenchanted historians want to portray her. Somehow, this thread has changed from the simple question of what was Abe's relationship with Ann to a Mary-bashing of sorts.
How long did Lincoln and Mary "date" before getting married? Wouldn't he have had ample time to decide whether or not he wanted to spend his life with Mary? And don't throw the old "she tricked me" formula into the mix about the speedy wedding. It was pretty darn hard in those days for a good society lady to mess around to that point. Just getting through the petticoat situation was a major obstacle (pardon my indecent comment). And there was not a lot of opportunity to be alone and wander off to a woodpile someplace!
I still maintain that no author of yore or of today can adequately get into the minds of either Abe or Mary to figure out what made their marriage tick. And little snippets of gossip, family thoughts, etc. are not going to give a clear picture. No matter which side of the coin you toss -- love or hate -- it's all going to be based on speculation. Let the dead rest in peace. The marriage of the Lincolns is not going to solve the problems of today's world.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 05-30-2014 03:23 PM
I'm with you Laurie.
The fact that Lincoln was in love or not in love with Ann Rutledge does not mean he did not love Mary.
David, you make some good points, but Herndon, for what ever reason, had an agenda. And I believe he seriously slanted some good research to fit his purpose. Coincidently I'm reading the Tarbell book you mentioned. It's pretty good. And I also think that the Randall book is a bit slanted in Mary's favor. Since I'm not a trained historian like some of you, I just have to go with what sounds like the best argument and I accept opinions from both sides. There are resources that Randall used that were not available to Herndon. There are sources avialable today that were not avaialbel to Randall. I'm still listening, and one day I may hear something that will change my mind. I see in Lincoln's actions to Mary that he loved her. I see in the way she acted, that she loved him.
All of this reminds me of a song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViMF510wqWA
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Eva Elisabeth - 05-30-2014 06:44 PM
David, regarding Robert's service, as for the President I agreed. No, I wouldn't understand ANY mother who carried and bore a child and brought it up, whose FIRST INHERENT thought was not to protect her child, whether First Lady or not. (And, as I also said, I'm quite sure if she had instantly agreed it would have been turned against her, too.)
(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Eva, I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.David, in my post I already gave the answer:
(05-28-2014 08:08 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I've never read this, nor expected such. Would you believe such ("possibly more") ever happened? In other words: Did Mary ever have an affair or was seriously "in danger of"? What was (in your opinion) her mindset like in this regard?...no, I was looking for opinions.
(05-30-2014 10:47 AM)L Verge Wrote: I just asked her if she found anything to suggest a "meaningful" relationship with Mrs. Lincoln. She emphatically said, "NO!" There were references to their being friends, but nothing deeper.Thanks Laurie. David, you make a relationship out of "possibly more", so far nothing but a baseless rumor, without giving any proof!
David, also please look at post #78. There I already quoted AND commented exactly this:
(05-30-2014 11:24 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: "It is true -- true indeed I did," Lincoln replied, if Cogdal's memory can be trusted. "I loved the woman dearly and soundly: she was a handsome girl -- would have made a good loving wife. . . . I did honestly and truly love the girl and think often -- often of her now."Seemingly this discussion starts to go in circles. And I wish you had commented on Abraham Lincoln's own, written words in his letter to Mary which I quoted in post #98 as I think they are more reliable than any accounts by others. (And I was really curious about your personal thoughts, not a quote, expicitly on this letter).
However, as I said it seems starting to go in circles, and I second what Laurie worded so well (as I agree on her entire post!!!):
(05-30-2014 11:51 AM)L Verge Wrote: I still maintain that no author of yore or of today can adequately get into the minds of either Abe or Mary to figure out what made their marriage tick. And little snippets of gossip, family thoughts, etc. are not going to give a clear picture. No matter which side of the coin you toss -- love or hate -- it's all going to be based on speculation. Let the dead rest in peace....and add once more "in dubio pro reo".
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 05-30-2014 10:23 PM
As grief stricken as AL undoubtedly was by Ann's death, he was back at his duties as postmaster a month later(Sept 22) and within a year he was pursuing another woman with at least the idea of marriage in mind. That is remarkable behavior for a guy who was supposed to be so devastated at the loss of his love that he was marked for life. Quite the contrary, after a period of brief and intense grief he moved right on along. After he left New Salem for good we hear no stories about him even occasionally slipping back for sentimental visits to the grave of his "greatest love". Not even once.
This is quite the contrast to his behavior when he broke his engagement to Mary Todd. He had a breakdown so severe that he was unable to eat, work or even function. His very life was thought to be in jeopardy, and he was forced to leave town. There was no known pursuit of any other woman during the 18 months they were apart.
So if he was incompatible with Mary, he was quite miserable without her just the same.
I agree with Laurie. The only two people who know the secrets of the Lincoln relationship and marriage are buried together in a tomb in Oak Ridge Cemetery, Springfield Illinois. Their names are Abraham and Mary Lincoln.
Shortly after JFK was assassinated his widow Jacqueline expressed fear that her husband's legacy would be mostly written by "bitter old men" who would distort the truth about him for generations to come.
That statement could have come from Mary Todd Lincoln. Because starting with William Herndon-the quintessential BITTER OLD MAN- that is precisely what happened to Abraham Lincoln.
ETA: Laurie, I very much enjoy Michael Beschloss as an historian. I deeply regret that he did not write the AL biography. I would have read his book, which is more than I can say for Burlingame.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 05-31-2014 10:50 AM
(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Eva, I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.Eva, you responded: "David, in my post I already gave the answer:"
(05-30-2014 11:24 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: I've never read this, nor expected such. Would you believe such ("possibly more") ever happened? In other words: Did Mary ever have an affair or was seriously "in danger of"? What was (in your opinion) her mindset like in this regard?
Eva, I did not write those words in my posting of 11:24 AM yesterday. You wrote those words in your posting 103.
(05-30-2014 10:47 AM)L Verge Wrote: I just asked her if she found anything to suggest a "meaningful" relationship with Mrs. Lincoln. She emphatically said, "NO!" There were references to their being friends, but nothing deeper.Eva, you wrote: "Thanks Laurie. David, you make a relationship out of "possibly more", so far nothing but a baseless rumor, without giving any proof!"
Eva, you are the one that suggested the possibility of an affair between the two of them, not me. Roger Norton provided YOU with Lincoln scholar reference material on the question.
Laurie said in her posting 123 that she would help you with your analysis on the subject matter.
I look forward to reading the results of your joint efforts.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Linda Anderson - 05-31-2014 01:49 PM
(05-29-2014 04:15 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Thank you Laurie and Eva E, but I'm afraid it's all futile. Burlingame's 1000+ page tome...with all it's attendant, customary distortions of the Lincoln relationship and marriage, is being hailed as "definitive". It's apparently also won the prestigious Lincoln Prize. I think 50-100 years from now scholars will be as much influenced by Burlingame's bitter, one sided take on things as they were by Herndon's for many years.
It's all so frustrating. I keep wishing and hoping for a miracle, that the couple's lost correspondence will someday be discovered in a buried chest somewhere at Hildene...
Hildene's a pretty big place, Toia, so you never know.
Regarding the Grants leaving to visit their children on Good Friday, John Russell Young relates what Grant told him about that evening in Around the World with General Grant.
"Lincoln had promised to go to the theater, and wanted me to go with him. While I was with the President, a note came from Mrs. Grant saying she must leave Washington that night. Some incident of a trifling nature had made her resolve to leave that evening. I was glad to have the note, as I did not want to go to the theater. So I made my excuse to Lincoln, and at the proper hour, we started for the train."
In Grant, Jean Edward Smith says that Grant accepted the invitation but that "Historians have assumed that Julia did not wish to spend the evening in Mrs. Lincoln's company."
Julia Grant's version follows. It sounds to me like the Grants could have changed their plans to attend the theater with the Lincolns. When Mrs. Grant says "I do not what possessed me to take such a freak" to go home, I think she is being polite. I suspect her real reason was to avoid being with Mrs. Lincoln not only because she disliked being with her but because Mrs. Lincoln could be quite unpredictable in her behavior and Mrs. Grant certainly would not want a repeat of City Point.
"As soon as the General awoke in the morning, I asked him earnestly if we would not leave for Burlington today. He said: 'I wish I could but I have promised Mr. Lincoln to go up this morning and with him see what can be done in reference to the reduction of the army.' I pleaded earnestly, and he promised me that if he could possibly do so he would try and leave Washington that evening. Just then, a tap at our door brought a note from the President, saying: 'Dear General, Suppose you come at eleven o'clock instead of nine. Robert has just returned and I want to see something of him before I go to work.' The General said that he was afraid that this postponement would prevent his getting off that evening, but on my insisting that I must go, he said, 'Well, I will see what I can do. I certainly will go if it is possible.'"
"At midday a "man dressed in light-colored corduroy coat and trousers and with a rather shabby hat of the same color" showed up at the Grants' door to say, "'Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments to say she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater.' To this, I replied with some feeling (not liking either the looks of the messenger or the message, thinking the former savored of discourtesy and the latter seemed like a command), 'You may return with my compliments to Mrs. Lincoln and say that I regret as General Grant and I intend leaving the city this afternoon, we will not, therefore, be here to accompany President Lincoln and Ms. Lincoln to the theater.' He hesitated a moment, then urged: 'Madam, the papers announce that General Grant with be with the President tonight at the theater.' I said to this: 'You deliver my message to Mrs. Lincoln as I have given it to you. You may go now.' He smiled as he turned to leave. I have thought since that this man was one of the band of conspirators in that night's sad tragedy, and that he was not sent by Mrs. Lincoln at all. I am perfectly sure that he, with three others, one of them [John Wilkes] Booth himself, sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that day.
"As soon as I received the invitation to go with Mrs. Lincoln, I dispatched a note to General Grant entreating him to go home that evening; that I did not want to go to the theater; that he must take me home. I not only wrote to him, but sent three of the staff members who called to pay their respects to me to urge the General to go home that night. I do not know what possessed me to take such a freak, but go home I felt I must. The General sent me word to have my trunks ready and for Jesse and me to have our luncheon, and, if he could be in time, we would take the late afternoon train for Philadelphia.
"It was in obedience to this that I was at late luncheon with Mrs. Rawlins and her little girl and my Jesse when these men came in and sat opposite to us. They all four came in together. I thought I recognized in one of them the messenger of the morning, and one, a dark, pale man, played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth, but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He also seemed very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy."
Mrs. Grant recognized "this same, pale man" glaring at her and General Grant as they rode to the depot later that day.
Julia Dent Grant, The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (Mrs. Ulysses S. Grant)
http://books.google.com/books?id=tQaZhxwbLB8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=julia+grant+memoirs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZvOJU-fVCqmqsASx6YD4Dg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=theater&f=false
Below is Burlingame's account with the references he used. Grant saying, “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse” makes no sense since neither one of the Grants found out about the invitation until after General Grant left for the White House that morning.
" The previous evening, Lincoln had been too sick with a headache to take a
carriage ride with his wife, who wished to see the brilliant illuminations celebrating Lee’s
surrender. Grant, at Lincoln’s request, had agreed to accompany her. As she and the
general entered their carriage, the crowd that had gathered outside the White House
shouted “Grant!” nine times. Taking offense, Mrs. Lincoln instructed the driver to let her
out, but she changed her mind when the crowd also cheered for the president. This
happened again and again as the carriage proceeded around town. The First Lady
evidently thought it inappropriate that Grant should be cheered before her husband was.
The next day, Grant declined the president’s invitation to join him and Mrs. Lincoln to
attend a performance of Our American Cousin, for he feared incurring her displeasure
again.61 Moreover, Mrs. Grant informed her husband that she did not wish to be around
the First Lady after the unpleasantness at City Point three weeks earlier. (Later she told
Hamilton Fish “that she objected strenuously to accompanying Mrs. Lincoln.”) Grant
said “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse.”62 When the First
Lady’s messenger announced that the presidential carriage would call for her and her
husband at 8 p.m., Julia Grant curtly informed him that they would be out of town that
night.63 And they so were rolling along aboard a train to New Jersey while the Lincolns’
carriage rumbled toward Ford’s Theatre."
61 In the fall of 1869, Grant gave this account to his cabinet. Hamilton Fish diary, entry for 12 November
1869, Fish Papers, Library of Congress.
62 Reminiscences of Susan Man McCulloch, privately owned, in Benjamin P. Thomas and Harold M.
Hyman, Stanton: The Life and Times of Lincoln’s Secretary of War (New York: Knopf, 1962), 395.
63 John Y. Simon, ed., The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (New York: Putnam, 1975), 155.
Michael Burlingame, Abraham Lincoln
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Eva Elisabeth - 05-31-2014 02:31 PM
(05-31-2014 10:50 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:David, I'm truly sorry about the error with the headline, please excuse. It happened accidentally. I'm not good with computers and technical device, and I'm editing all on a small smartphone screen. I corrected it, of course.(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Eva, I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.Eva, you responded: "David, in my post I already gave the answer:"
(05-30-2014 11:24 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: I've never read this, nor expected such. Would you believe such ("possibly more") ever happened? In other words: Did Mary ever have an affair or was seriously "in danger of"? What was (in your opinion) her mindset like in this regard?
Eva, I did not write those words in my posting of 11:24 AM yesterday. You wrote those words in your posting 103.
(05-30-2014 10:47 AM)L Verge Wrote: I just asked her if she found anything to suggest a "meaningful" relationship with Mrs. Lincoln. She emphatically said, "NO!" There were references to their being friends, but nothing deeper.Eva, you wrote: "Thanks Laurie. David, you make a relationship out of "possibly more", so far nothing but a baseless rumor, without giving any proof!"
Eva, you are the one that suggested the possibility of an affair between the two of them, not me. Roger Norton provided YOU with Lincoln scholar reference material on the question.
Laurie said in her posting 123 that she would help you with your analysis on the subject matter.
I look forward to reading the results of your joint efforts.
David, I didn't suggest the possibility of an affair. I read that Jean Baker wrote: "At some point Mary Lincoln and William Wood had become friends and possibly more." Thus Jean Baker suggested it, and I was mainly looking for opinions what forum members think of Mary's mindset regarding affairs.
I found it unfair towards Mary that you, without giving any proof, made of a so far unproven "possibly more" "THE relationship of W.S.W. and M. L.":
(05-30-2014 08:48 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote: I wanted to know if you are going to provide an analysis of the relationship of William S. Wood and Mary Lincoln, wife of the President of the United States, sometime soon.IMO such is the way how rumors grow and people start to believe them without scrutinizing what they are believing.
HistorianJoan Chaconas' statement based on her research on W. Wood is for me sufficient to confirm what I personally believe: Mary sure had several "weaknesses", but I believe she had an attitude towards marriage and motherhood that regarding intimacy with other men outlawed anything beyond charming conversations.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 05-31-2014 03:00 PM
Mary had a friendship with this guy(who she later turned against and grew to hate almost violently, but that's not unusual for her).
She was a lady who had quite a few male friends..Charles Sumner, the Marquis de Chambrun, among many others. What is there to "analyze" and what am I missing?
Linda, that is a perfectly chilling account that Mrs. Grant gives about the afternoon of Apr14th 1865. She later identified the pale guy who was glaring at her as John Wilkes Booth.
Incidentally, in her memoirs she wrote that Adam Badeau had exaggerated Mary Lincoln's meltdown at City Point which I found interesting.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Eva Elisabeth - 05-31-2014 03:14 PM
(05-31-2014 03:00 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Mary had a friendship with this guy(who she later turned against and grew to hate almost violently, but that's not unusual for her).Toia, please read my post #103, Roger's post #113, and Laurie's post #123 on this thread. I would appreciate your opinion!
She was a lady who had quite a few male friends..Charles Sumner, the Marquis de Chambrun, among many others. What is there to "analyze" and what am I missing?
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 05-31-2014 03:28 PM
(05-31-2014 01:49 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: Regarding the Grants leaving to visit their children on Good Friday, John Russell Young relates what Grant told him about that evening in Around the World with General Grant.
"Lincoln had promised to go to the theater, and wanted me to go with him. While I was with the President, a note came from Mrs. Grant saying she must leave Washington that night. Some incident of a trifling nature had made her resolve to leave that evening. I was glad to have the note, as I did not want to go to the theater. So I made my excuse to Lincoln, and at the proper hour, we started for the train."
In Grant, Jean Edward Smith says that Grant accepted the invitation but that "Historians have assumed that Julia did not wish to spend the evening in Mrs. Lincoln's company."
Julia Grant's version follows. It sounds to me like the Grants could have changed their plans to attend the theater with the Lincolns. When Mrs. Grant says "I do not what possessed me to take such a freak" to go home, I think she is being polite. I suspect her real reason was to avoid being with Mrs. Lincoln not only because she disliked being with her but because Mrs. Lincoln could be quite unpredictable in her behavior and Mrs. Grant certainly would not want a repeat of City Point.
"As soon as the General awoke in the morning, I asked him earnestly if we would not leave for Burlington today. He said: 'I wish I could but I have promised Mr. Lincoln to go up this morning and with him see what can be done in reference to the reduction of the army.' I pleaded earnestly, and he promised me that if he could possibly do so he would try and leave Washington that evening. Just then, a tap at our door brought a note from the President, saying: 'Dear General, Suppose you come at eleven o'clock instead of nine. Robert has just returned and I want to see something of him before I go to work.' The General said that he was afraid that this postponement would prevent his getting off that evening, but on my insisting that I must go, he said, 'Well, I will see what I can do. I certainly will go if it is possible.'"
"At midday a "man dressed in light-colored corduroy coat and trousers and with a rather shabby hat of the same color" showed up at the Grants' door to say, "'Mrs. Lincoln sends me, Madam, with her compliments to say she will call for you at exactly eight o'clock to go to the theater.' To this, I replied with some feeling (not liking either the looks of the messenger or the message, thinking the former savored of discourtesy and the latter seemed like a command), 'You may return with my compliments to Mrs. Lincoln and say that I regret as General Grant and I intend leaving the city this afternoon, we will not, therefore, be here to accompany President Lincoln and Ms. Lincoln to the theater.' He hesitated a moment, then urged: 'Madam, the papers announce that General Grant with be with the President tonight at the theater.' I said to this: 'You deliver my message to Mrs. Lincoln as I have given it to you. You may go now.' He smiled as he turned to leave. I have thought since that this man was one of the band of conspirators in that night's sad tragedy, and that he was not sent by Mrs. Lincoln at all. I am perfectly sure that he, with three others, one of them [John Wilkes] Booth himself, sat opposite me and my party at luncheon that day.
"As soon as I received the invitation to go with Mrs. Lincoln, I dispatched a note to General Grant entreating him to go home that evening; that I did not want to go to the theater; that he must take me home. I not only wrote to him, but sent three of the staff members who called to pay their respects to me to urge the General to go home that night. I do not know what possessed me to take such a freak, but go home I felt I must. The General sent me word to have my trunks ready and for Jesse and me to have our luncheon, and, if he could be in time, we would take the late afternoon train for Philadelphia.
"It was in obedience to this that I was at late luncheon with Mrs. Rawlins and her little girl and my Jesse when these men came in and sat opposite to us. They all four came in together. I thought I recognized in one of them the messenger of the morning, and one, a dark, pale man, played with his soup spoon, sometimes filling it and holding it half-lifted to his mouth, but never tasting it. This occurred many times. He also seemed very intent on what we and the children were saying. I thought he was crazy."
Mrs. Grant recognized "this same, pale man" glaring at her and General Grant as they rode to the depot later that day.
Julia Dent Grant, The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (Mrs. Ulysses S. Grant)
http://books.google.com/books?id=tQaZhxwbLB8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=julia+grant+memoirs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZvOJU-fVCqmqsASx6YD4Dg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=theater&f=false
Below is Burlingame's account with the references he used. Grant saying, “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse” makes no sense since neither one of the Grants found out about the invitation until after General Grant left for the White House that morning.
" The previous evening, Lincoln had been too sick with a headache to take a
carriage ride with his wife, who wished to see the brilliant illuminations celebrating Lee’s
surrender. Grant, at Lincoln’s request, had agreed to accompany her. As she and the
general entered their carriage, the crowd that had gathered outside the White House
shouted “Grant!” nine times. Taking offense, Mrs. Lincoln instructed the driver to let her
out, but she changed her mind when the crowd also cheered for the president. This
happened again and again as the carriage proceeded around town. The First Lady
evidently thought it inappropriate that Grant should be cheered before her husband was.
The next day, Grant declined the president’s invitation to join him and Mrs. Lincoln to
attend a performance of Our American Cousin, for he feared incurring her displeasure
again.61 Moreover, Mrs. Grant informed her husband that she did not wish to be around
the First Lady after the unpleasantness at City Point three weeks earlier. (Later she told
Hamilton Fish “that she objected strenuously to accompanying Mrs. Lincoln.”) Grant
said “we will go visit our children . . . and this will be a good excuse.”62 When the First
Lady’s messenger announced that the presidential carriage would call for her and her
husband at 8 p.m., Julia Grant curtly informed him that they would be out of town that
night.63 And they so were rolling along aboard a train to New Jersey while the Lincolns’
carriage rumbled toward Ford’s Theatre."
61 In the fall of 1869, Grant gave this account to his cabinet. Hamilton Fish diary, entry for 12 November
1869, Fish Papers, Library of Congress.
62 Reminiscences of Susan Man McCulloch, privately owned, in Benjamin P. Thomas and Harold M.
Hyman, Stanton: The Life and Times of Lincoln’s Secretary of War (New York: Knopf, 1962), 395.
63 John Y. Simon, ed., The Personal Memoirs of Julia Dent Grant (New York: Putnam, 1975), 155.
Michael Burlingame, Abraham Lincoln
Fascinating post, Linda! We have discussed several times over the past two years the reliability/lack of reliability of Jim Bishop's book. But I thought I would share his take on the Grants' trip. According to Bishop there were four trains north each day, and the Grants chose the route that took 13 hours. The shortest trip left the next morning and took 7 1/2 hours.
Here was the route they chose (according to Bishop):
6 P.M. Leave Washington City
7:25 P.M Arrive Baltimore
12:00 P.M. Arrive Philadelphia
Change Trains
6:00 A.M. Leave Philadelphia
7:00 A.M. Arrive Burlington
If they had spent the night of the 14th in Washington they could have caught a 7:30 A.M. express the morning of the 15th and arrived in Burlington at 2:58 P.M. So they could have gone to the theater with the Lincolns, spent the night at the Willard, and taken an express train the next day (although arriving in Burlington later).
The implication is they definitely wanted to leave the evening of the 14th (despite the prospect of a much faster train trip the next morning).
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 05-31-2014 03:43 PM
Hi Eva E.,
As requested I read all three entries. Having read Jean Baker's biography of Mary I already knew about her opinion that there might have been "something more" to MTL's relationship with Wood than friendship. I think she is basing this on the fact that they became friends early in the AL Administration and Wood received an appointment to some post by recommendation of Mary. He went with her to New York to buy furniture and objets d'art for the WH several times and they became quite good friends. Someone sent AL a letter hinting at hanky panky between Wood and MTL and warning him that Wood would "stab you in your most private part". AL fired Wood. I am foggy on the details but some gossip was that MTL had been seen going to Wood's hotel by carriage, alone at night. Anyway Mary-for reasons I am not sure of-turned against Wood later. In her compilation of letters she calls him crazy and a drunk and speaks of him with utter contempt. If he had "the goods" on her why did he not go public with them as soon as she dropped him and started trashing him all over town?
I agree with Joan Chaconas. Wood was a slippery customer. MTL was a vain, insecure woman who was flirtatious and extremely susceptible to the kind of flattery of men like WW. She had the most poor judgment, and AL knew that his wife's vanity and other character flaws made her vulnerable to blackmail. If Wood had been her lover, she would have been VERY vulnerable indeed. So knowing this, why turn against him and allow AL to sack him? If she had had an affair with him that would have been motivation to keep him around, pay him off....anything other than fire him and spread the word that he was an insane boozehound. After a day or two of tension over the Wood letter things were back to normal between AL and MTL. AL's anger over the letter seemed to stem from the fact that his wife was putting herself and by extension HIM in the position of possibly being blackmailed, not because he believed she'd had an affair.
For all Mary's coquetry, she was at heart a religious woman, a Victorian, and a Southern belle. I of course don't know for sure, but I think there are lines she simply would not have crossed. An affair with some low level grifter while married to the President of the U.S. is one of them.