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+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: The hole In the door (/thread-2668.html)
RE: The hole In the door - LincolnMan - 10-09-2015 08:36 AM
It is a mystery. Possible candidates for having drilled the hole: John Surratt Jr., John Wilkes Booth, Ed Spangler, and one of the Ford family members. Any other specific names?
RE: The hole In the door - RJNorton - 10-09-2015 09:00 AM
James Gifford was the chief carpenter at Ford's, so I suppose he could be a possibility. IMO he didn't do it, however.
RE: The hole In the door - Dennis Urban - 10-09-2015 12:04 PM
I read somewhere that perhaps one of the Fords bored the hole at an earlier time to observe activities in the box. That just does not make sense. What I have never read is any account after the assassination noting the freshness of the hole vs it being there for some time; e.g. was the inner circumference of the hole bare wood or painted over indicating it had been done some time before. Had the Fords bored it, they would likely have wanted to make it appear as inconspicuous as possible. If the hole was bored on 4/14, the appearance wouldn't matter although the presence of wood shavings could create suspicion.
RE: The hole In the door - Eva Elisabeth - 10-09-2015 12:21 PM
(10-09-2015 08:36 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: It is a mystery. Possible candidates for having drilled the hole: John Surratt Jr., John Wilkes Booth, Ed Spangler, and one of the Ford family members. Any other specific names?They would have fixed it instead:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EUwlV1bSE
RE: The hole In the door - LincolnMan - 10-09-2015 05:32 PM
(10-09-2015 12:21 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-09-2015 08:36 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: It is a mystery. Possible candidates for having drilled the hole: John Surratt Jr., John Wilkes Booth, Ed Spangler, and one of the Ford family members. Any other specific names?They would have fixed it instead:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EUwlV1bSE
Eva:
I just knew you were going there! From my favorite group and favorite album.
RE: The hole In the door - Eva Elisabeth - 10-09-2015 05:56 PM
(10-09-2015 05:32 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:YEAH-YEAH-YEAH!!! I cannot decide on a favorite album...but Pepper certainly competes here. Just to remark - today would have been John Lennon's 75th birthday! (And my dear grandma's 110th...)(10-09-2015 12:21 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-09-2015 08:36 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: It is a mystery. Possible candidates for having drilled the hole: John Surratt Jr., John Wilkes Booth, Ed Spangler, and one of the Ford family members. Any other specific names?They would have fixed it instead:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EUwlV1bSE
Eva:
I just knew you were going there! From my favorite group and favorite album.
RE: The hole In the door - LincolnMan - 10-09-2015 08:15 PM
(10-09-2015 05:56 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-09-2015 05:32 PM)LincolnMan Wrote:YEAH-YEAH-YEAH!!! I cannot decide on a favorite album...but Pepper certainly competes here. Just to remark - today would have been John Lennon's 75th birthday! (And my dear grandma's 110th...)(10-09-2015 12:21 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-09-2015 08:36 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: It is a mystery. Possible candidates for having drilled the hole: John Surratt Jr., John Wilkes Booth, Ed Spangler, and one of the Ford family members. Any other specific names?They would have fixed it instead:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-EUwlV1bSE
Eva:
I just knew you were going there! From my favorite group and favorite album.
Yes. He is greatly missed. The song In My Life says it all...
RE: The hole In the door - John Fazio - 10-10-2015 01:37 PM
[i][i][i][i]Everyone:
The peephole and the brace and mortise are both in some degree mysterious. Both subjects are covered in separate chapters in "Decapitating the Union". After studying the issues in some depth, I concluded that both feats of carpentry were accomplished by Booth on April 14. You are invited to read the two chapters and comment.
John
RE: The hole In the door - jonathan - 11-11-2015 11:59 PM
I tend to be most convinced that Booth made the hole. A gimlet in his room, wood shavings in his pocket, and he's planning on shooting the President that night? Yeah. Just ask yourself the obvious questions…why would he need a gimlet? Why would he put wood shavings in his pocket? The thing that most convinces me though, is that if it was me planning to walk through that door and shoot the President, I would absolutely want to have a look inside before I did it. Doesn't matter if I saw the setup earlier in the day, doesn't matter if I could see where Lincoln was sitting as I was making my way up there. Before I walked through that door, I would want to be able to have a look inside if at all possible. And it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the Ford's were trying to divert attention by claiming that they were responsible for the hole. If it was my theater, i'd definitely be trying to do some damage control too. And once you've told that story, you've got to stick to it forever and ever amen. To me, Booth boring the hole just makes the most sense.
RE: The hole In the door - John Fazio - 11-12-2015 12:11 AM
[quote='jonathan' pid='53554' dateline='1447300759']
I tend to be most convinced that Booth made the hole. A gimlet in his room, wood shavings in his pocket, and he's planning on shooting the President that night? Yeah. Just ask yourself the obvious questions…why would he need a gimlet? Why would he put wood shavings in his pocket? The thing that most convinces me though, is that if it was me planning to walk through that door and shoot the President, I would absolutely want to have a look inside before I did it. Doesn't matter if I saw the setup earlier in the day, doesn't matter if I could see where Lincoln was sitting as I was making my way up there. Before I walked through that door, I would want to be able to have a look inside if at all possible. And it seems perfectly reasonable to me that the Ford's were trying to divert attention by claiming that they were responsible for the hole. If it was my theater, i'd definitely be trying to do some damage control too. And once you've told that story, you've got to stick to it forever and ever amen. To me, Booth boring the hole just makes the most sense.
Jonathan:
I came to the same conclusion you did re Booth's need for a dry run. The evidence supports it. See pp. 162, 163 of Decapitating the Union.
John
RE: The hole In the door - RJNorton - 11-12-2015 06:10 AM
IMO Booth made the hole, but I remain unconvinced that he made a dry run at c.9:30 P.M. I cannot understand why no one else claimed the dry run other than Clara Harris. As I understand the seating arrangement, Rathbone was sitting on the couch at somewhat of an angle - I would think he would be first to see someone peering in at the box. But I do not recall Rathbone claiming Booth made a prior trip. Also, we have many eyewitnesses to Booth approaching the box at c.10:15 P.M., but none other than Clara noticed the dry run? This does not make sense to me. At this point I think Clara was confused. Keep in mind that Clara also was adamant that Laura Keene was never in the box after President Lincoln was shot; this statement is also in conflict with other eyewitness accounts.
RE: The hole In the door - John Fazio - 11-12-2015 08:43 AM
(11-12-2015 06:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote: IMO Booth made the hole, but I remain unconvinced that he made a dry run at c.9:30 P.M. I cannot understand why no one else claimed the dry run other than Clara Harris. As I understand the seating arrangement, Rathbone was sitting on the couch at somewhat of an angle - I would think he would be first to see someone peering in at the box. But I do not recall Rathbone claiming Booth made a prior trip. Also, we have many eyewitnesses to Booth approaching the box at c.10:15 P.M., but none other than Clara noticed the dry run? This does not make sense to me. At this point I think Clara was confused. Keep in mind that Clara also was adamant that Laura Keene was never in the box after President Lincoln was shot; this statement is also in conflict with other eyewitness accounts.
Roger:
We have to go where the evidence takes us, which may not be where we would prefer to go. Rathbone's vision was directed toward the stage. His position favored it. Recall that he did not even see Booth when he struck until the assassination had already occurred, when he noticed the smoke and heard Booth say something like "Freedom". Clara, on the other hand, was facing Mary and the President. She could thus observe the action on the stage, on her right, but the peripheral vision of her left eye could easily pick up something happening at either door (7 or 8, the latter being the one most likely used by Booth). Her statement is unambiguous:
"Nearly one hour before the commission of the deed the assassin came to the door of the box, and looked in to take a survey of the position of the occupants. It was supposed at the time that it was either a mistake or the exercise of an impertinent curiosity. The circumstance attracted no particular attention at the time. Upon his entering the box again..."
This does not sound like a statement made by a "confused" mind; it is too definite for that. As to the business that follows about Rathbone's inquiry, that, I believe, can be explained as an attempt to cast her fiancée in a favorable light and to neutralize an imputation of negligence. I do not believe it mitigates against the veracity of the first part of her statement. There is no contradictory statement to be found anywhere. The only doubt is that which is created by omission, i.e. Rathbone did not mention it. The great likelihood is that he did not mention it because he did not see it. No one, in fact, except Clara, because of her vantage point, saw it, so only she recorded it. Brooks apparently found her account credible inasmuch as he repeated it in his dispatch of April 16. So, too, did newspapers, which also repeated it. As for Clara's statement re Laura Keene, I agree that the evidence is against her, but that episode is at least contestable, i.e. Clara says one thing and Leale and others another. But there is no one saying that the assassin did not make a dry run. Consider, too, that Leale said nothing about Laura in his earlier accounts; his first mention of her is in a lecture he gave in 1909. That is a point in Clara's favor, but it is not conclusive.
John
RE: The hole In the door - L Verge - 11-12-2015 10:37 AM
(11-12-2015 06:10 AM)RJNorton Wrote: IMO Booth made the hole, but I remain unconvinced that he made a dry run at c.9:30 P.M. I cannot understand why no one else claimed the dry run other than Clara Harris. As I understand the seating arrangement, Rathbone was sitting on the couch at somewhat of an angle - I would think he would be first to see someone peering in at the box. But I do not recall Rathbone claiming Booth made a prior trip. Also, we have many eyewitnesses to Booth approaching the box at c.10:15 P.M., but none other than Clara noticed the dry run? This does not make sense to me. At this point I think Clara was confused. Keep in mind that Clara also was adamant that Laura Keene was never in the box after President Lincoln was shot; this statement is also in conflict with other eyewitness accounts.
I'm with you on this one, Roger. And by "dry run," I suspect Jonathan (welcome back!) might mean that Booth's drilling the hole earlier was his assurance that he could peek into the box to make sure things were A-OK before entering.
John - "But there is no one saying that the assassin did not make a dry run." And, only Clara saying that he did. Forbes didn't mention seeing Booth twice and none of the audience members (who saw him just before the time of the crime) mentioned him.
RE: The hole In the door - jonathan - 11-12-2015 11:32 AM
Yeah Laurie, that's exactly what I meant. I haven't read the argument that Booth made a dry run an hour earlier, but the thought of it brings some obvious questions immediately to mind. Why would he have done that? What is the benefit? He knew the theater. He had been there that afternoon so he likely knew the setup of the box. If he had entered the box at 9:30, wouldn't many people have seen him and reported that in the aftermath??
Again, putting myself in his place, I have no real need for a dry run. I'm intimately familiar with the theater, I've been there in the afternoon so I know the set up, I've got my hole in the door to peek in just before I do the deed. That's all I need really. Why go through the trouble of entering the box twice and drawing extra attention to myself? As far as Clara's statement, it sounds like she's saying that Booth actually opened the door and either stuck his head in or stepped inside, looked around and then left. If that was the case, surely someone else in the box would have noticed that. Although Mary was too distraught to think straight, it seems like Rathbone would have recalled this at some point and verified Clara's story.
I'm curious to read the argument for the dry run, but just off the top of my head I see a number of shaky bridges to cross to arrive at that conclusion. Some of them I can get past, but I have a hard time seeing how Booth could have made a dry run at 9:30 and Clara Harris was the only person inside the box or out who noticed it. Or at least she's the only one who noticed and mentioned it.
It's a very curious statement from Clara though. What reason could she possibly have for saying that if it didn't happen?? Would it be she was just mis-remembering? Could it be someone else opened the door to look in and after the assassination she got confused about who it was? Was she just embellishing? At what point was that statement made? Was it in the immediate aftermath, or years later, or at the trial? Did she even testify at the trial?
RE: The hole In the door - maharba - 11-12-2015 12:29 PM
Assuming that the president's box occupants had noticed an hour, before, some motion or maybe a visitor putting his head in and retreating. I would have told myself, that must have been Security that is Parker, and then I would have felt more at ease in knowing that. Did JWBooth absolutely know who all was in the box? Had a friend or a confederate told Booth just who was in that box? Not including Grant and soldiers, not also a strong personal bodyguard of Lincoln? In scouting out the live theater, was Booth able to view into the box and see just who was in there? Booth did his homework and planning very well, including a novel escape method. Men with guns would not have/did not shoot at the fleeing actor, unsure if that wasn't just a part of the play. It was bold of Booth to go in there with just a one-shot pistol and a knife. If I was now about to open that door and enter, several ideas would have played through my mind. I AM John Wilkes Booth, and if somehow necessary I could at the very last second "talk my way in and through" any unforeseen event. "Hello President Lincoln, I just want to say what a pleasure to have you here, etc." Then with everyone disarmed and charmed by Booth's presence, quickly decide what to do next.