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RE: Gettysburg Address - maharba - 11-19-2015 10:29 AM
Seven score and twelve years ago today, Abraham Lincoln gave a 3 minute speech somewhere on the battlefields near a small town in Pennsylvania. The Boritt book cited has that his speech was largely forgotten for a decade or more. Around the time of the forcibly re-United States centennial. I don't think anyone is quite sure, today, just where on the fields that the speeches took place? In glancing back at paper entries, I see very little mention at all of the Gettysburg Address until much closer to 1900. And not the 1876 date, of Boritt. In looking at the Gabor Boritt and Gary Wills books, and others, it seems they have 'discovered' items previously unrecognized in the Gettysburg Address. Wills appears to have made many discoveries on assorted topics, that other experts have taken exception with. "The Kennedy myth exploded", breakthroughs in Catholic doctrine, the 2nd Amendment, and much more. The analogy to Pericles funeral oration was not a discovery but had been published decades before, several times. It doesn't seem to ring true to me, and maybe the suggested Pericles analogy should be forgotten again, for someone later on to discover. Some of the background in Wills book was disturbing, talking about the battlefield and surveying it. Lincoln either went over it, or was shown a map of it. And that Edward Everett looked it over,
"Everett excoriated the rebels for their atrocities, implicitly justifying the fact that some Confederate skeletons were still unburied, lying in the clefts of Devil’s Den."
I knew that Everett and Lincoln came to consecrate and hallow the grounds only for the Union dead, but it shocked me that he actually cursed the fallen Southern soldiers even while seeing their last remains lying unburied. Surely, Everett didn't include that in his long Address.
And in addition to the Psalms 90 'fourscore' reference, I notice this,
1st Chronicles Ch 7 verse 5
And their brethren among all the families of Issachar were
valiant men of might, reckoned in all by their genealogies
fourscore and seven thousand.
I still don't doubt that it was Psalms 90 that the trail of
'fourscore' in books and speeches began, working their way on through into Lincoln's 1863 address. If Lincoln also remembered that Psalm, and in fuller context, could that have played through his mind and into the gist of the speech? Or might Lincoln have spoken to a pastor who suggested that Fourscore analogy to current events (of the day), and set in motion the direction of the speech.
RE: Gettysburg Address - L Verge - 11-19-2015 01:53 PM
I'll admit to never having given any detailed consideration to the "four score and ten" phrase that Lincoln used and where he got the inspiration. Call me dumb, but I have always considered that the use of the word "score" to mark time (and other things) was much more common 150 years ago and was nothing of special note in the Gettysburg Address.
RE: Gettysburg Address - RJNorton - 11-19-2015 03:15 PM
Lincoln had previously used the word "score" as a reference to the number 20 in the Cooper Union speech.
RE: Gettysburg Address - Eva Elisabeth - 11-19-2015 04:57 PM
..and after the speech he said to Lamon: "Lamont, that speech won't scour!" (While Everett said: "I should be glad, if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes.") Great point, Roger!
I doubt he did or needed to ask a pastor for advice on religious gloss for a speech. He did though call on the landscape architect in charge of the cemetery, William Saunders, to learn the topography of the site. D. Donald suggests he chose the rhyming "four scores" for stylistic reasons ("these cadences were somberly musical ") and because he preferred short words to long words. Donald furthermore supposes he might have read it to Seward the previous evening after working further on it at Will's house in Gettysburg. BTW, the scours were in the speech from the beginning, while "under God" does appear in neither the Hay nor the Nicolay copy.
RE: Gettysburg Address - maharba - 11-20-2015 02:28 PM
Over the years, a few folks have suggested that Lincoln might have picked up the phrase Fourscore from a speech by 1861 Speaker of the House, Galusha A. Grow. It always surprises me that this is not looked at more closely. Here's a portion of House Speaker Galusha Grow's July 4 1861 speech,
"Four-score years ago, fifty-six bold...representatives of a few feeble colonists ...met in convention to found a new empire, based on the inalienable rights of man. Seven years of bloody conflict ensued, and the Fourth of July, 1776, is canonized....Three-quarters of a century have passed away, and...have spanned a whole continent with a great empire of free States...Representatives are convened in the council chambers of the republic to deliberate on the means for preserving the Government under whose benign influence these grand results have been achieved. A rebellion, the most causeless in the history of the race, has developed..."
Rep Grow claimed there that a new country (empire) was formed by the Declaration of Independence (fourscore years ago), and not actually at the ratification of the U.S. Constitution --just as Lincoln would appear to claim, with nearly the same terms. Click to a search and see the longer version of Galusha Grow's address. Grow later dissolves into more of a long rant, but he makes the point of expressing part of the meaning of Psalm 90, Fourscore: "a period but little exceeding the allotted lifetime of man". Lincoln, in picking up the same phrase, which he must have known came also from Psalms, did not follow through with any of the parallel meanings of the Psalm. Which makes me consider that as far as the Bible, Lincoln had read it and memorized many passages, but lacked an understanding of context. Later in life, after seeing Shakespeare and talking to more worldly folks, Lincoln could do more than just parrot sonnets and fragments of Shakespeare dialog. There, he knew and appreciated the context of what was being said. At Gettysburg, who put those countless thousands in their early graves? Few or none of those thousands of dead had attained their threescore and ten. They had been told they were dying for preserving the Union. None of the young men had been told they cut their lifespan short for 'a new birth of freedom".
The July 4 1861 Address by Galusha A. Grow accepting as Speaker of the House appears certain to be the template that Abraham Lincoln had decided to build a later speech upon, to me. The fortunate win at the later Battle of Gettysburg furnished Lincoln a time and place to use the Speech. If not Gettysburg, it would have filled some other slot. Lincoln shrewdly appraised Speaker Grow's over-long and shriller speech. He shrank that down, and tacked on in places a few glowing phrases from other varied sources.
RE: Gettysburg Address - Eva Elisabeth - 11-20-2015 05:08 PM
(11-20-2015 02:28 PM)maharba Wrote: The July 4 1861 Address by Galusha A. Grow accepting as Speaker of the House appears certain to be the template that Abraham Lincoln had decided to build a later speech upon, to me. The fortunate win at the later Battle of Gettysburg furnished Lincoln a time and place to use the Speech. If not Gettysburg, it would have filled some other slot. Lincoln shrewdly appraised Speaker Grow's over-long and shriller speech. He shrank that down, and tacked on in places a few glowing phrases from other varied sources.I am not sure if I got your point correctly, but it seems like the question whether the egg was first or the hen.
While Abraham Lincoln may have gotten ideas from the Bible, or other sources (which is legitimate), I think he composed and dedicated this speech to the occasion, and not v.v.
Mahraba, please kindly allow me to pose this general request. It might be a language issue (English is not my native tongue), but I'm afraid I often read and re-read your posts and cannot entirely figure how they are intended to be understood. It is obvious you have read a lot on the topics, yet I often don't know what you intend to say beyond the info you forward - do you consider it reliable or do you question it, or do you ask for others' opinions/knowledge on whether it is, do you intend to criticize, are you stating an opinion/agreement or do you feel neutral about what you write when you forward historians' opinions?
Please - could you try to explain your what you intend (to ask/express) with your posts perhaps in a clearer/more simple way? Thanks - I would really like to understand.
(11-19-2015 10:29 AM)maharba Wrote: I don't think anyone is quite sure, today, just where on the fields that the speeches took place?Please see Scott's post #1895 here:
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium/thread-695-post-45688.html?highlight=gettysburg#pid45688
RE: Gettysburg Address - Eva Elisabeth - 11-21-2015 05:38 PM
(11-20-2015 05:08 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: While Abraham Lincoln may have gotten ideas from the Bible, or other sources (which is legitimate), I think he composed and dedicated this speech to the occasion, and not v.v.Just to add - the political topic ("the capacity of a people to govern themselves") already occurred as early as in his 1838 speech at the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, and in his special message to Congress on July 4, 1861, Lincoln said that the war involved "the question whether a constitutional republic, or a democracy – a government of the people, by the same people – can, or cannot maintain its territorial integrity, against its own domestic foes". Also on Nov. 17, he told James Speed his address was but half-finished (in writing).
RE: Gettysburg Address - RJNorton - 11-22-2015 04:44 AM
Thanks for mentioning the Lyceum Address. Although the circumstances were different, I wonder if Grow may have borrowed a little from Lincoln's Lyceum speech when he said, "In view of this grandest demonstration for self-preservation in the history of nationalities, desponding patriotism may be assured that the foundations of our national greatness still stand strong, and that the sentiment which to-day beats responsive in every loyal heart will for the future be realized. No flag alien to the sources of the Mississippi river will every float permanently over its mouths till its waters are crimsoned in human gore, and not one foot of American soil can ever be wrenched from the jurisdiction of the Constitution of the United States until it is baptised in fire and blood."
RE: Gettysburg Address - L Verge - 11-22-2015 10:57 AM
(11-22-2015 04:44 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Thanks for mentioning the Lyceum Address. Although the circumstances were different, I wonder if Grow may have borrowed a little from Lincoln's Lyceum speech when he said, "In view of this grandest demonstration for self-preservation in the history of nationalities, desponding patriotism may be assured that the foundations of our national greatness still stand strong, and that the sentiment which to-day beats responsive in every loyal heart will for the future be realized. No flag alien to the sources of the Mississippi river will every float permanently over its mouths till its waters are crimsoned in human gore, and not one foot of American soil can ever be wrenched from the jurisdiction of the Constitution of the United States until it is baptised in fire and blood."
Very appropriate words for 2015 and beyond in what's happening in our world today...
RE: Gettysburg Address - Thomas Kearney - 11-23-2015 05:17 PM
(11-22-2015 10:57 AM)L Verge Wrote:(11-22-2015 04:44 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Thanks for mentioning the Lyceum Address. Although the circumstances were different, I wonder if Grow may have borrowed a little from Lincoln's Lyceum speech when he said, "In view of this grandest demonstration for self-preservation in the history of nationalities, desponding patriotism may be assured that the foundations of our national greatness still stand strong, and that the sentiment which to-day beats responsive in every loyal heart will for the future be realized. No flag alien to the sources of the Mississippi river will every float permanently over its mouths till its waters are crimsoned in human gore, and not one foot of American soil can ever be wrenched from the jurisdiction of the Constitution of the United States until it is baptised in fire and blood."
Very appropriate words for 2015 and beyond in what's happening in our world today...
Ditto!
RE: Gettysburg Address - maharba - 11-23-2015 10:47 PM
Yes I read the posting on where else Lincoln may have been at the Gettysburg speech. And, also in checking recent Google
search ideas, the present thought is that Lincoln was about a quarter mile north of the (present) memorial, then. If I am not as clear as can be at times, I am trying to recapitulate what really took place and why. Several points are still not settled. In his orally delivered speech, did Lincoln say 'under God' or was that merely added later in written copies. It really seems that his speech was so short that folks there and then were a bit stunned it ended so quickly. My current thinking is that the Gettysburg Address of Lincoln was not 'interrupted several times by applause". But that, if the audience had understood just how brief it was going to be , they MIGHT have applauded. I tend to believe too that Lincoln was disappointed in the immediate (flat) reception of his Address. Though several modern historians say that that was a myth, and that
Lincoln instead was pleased with its immediate reception there on the battlefield.
RE: Gettysburg Address - Eva Elisabeth - 11-24-2015 05:18 AM
Thanks, maharba, this time your post and personal point was entirely comprehensible to me!
(11-23-2015 10:47 PM)maharba Wrote: It really seems that his speech was so short that folks there and then were a bit stunned it ended so quickly. My current thinking is that the Gettysburg Address of Lincoln was not 'interrupted several times by applause... Lincoln was disappointed in the immediate (flat) reception "of his Address.That's the way I have read it, and that the people had not even gotten entirely quiet after Everett's speech yet. (Could you name one of those who claim he was pleased? Thanks.) I don't think I've seen the theory Lincoln was immediately pleased. Donald considers Lincoln's "not scour" quote to Lamont reliable, other than the rest of Lamon's Gettysburg account.
RE: Gettysburg Address - Don1946 - 11-25-2015 09:08 AM
(11-16-2015 01:55 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(05-25-2015 11:50 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: Very interesting history. Also, some don't know that the "of the people, by the people, for the people" reference in the Gettysburg Address is not original to Lincoln.
Here are a couple of previous statements:
In 1384 John Wycliffe said, "This Bible is for the government of the people, for the people and by the people.”
In 1830 Daniel Webster described the federal government as: "made for the people, made by the people, and answerable to the people."
Roger and others, I found that variations on the of/by/for the people go back to the French Revolution and the republican tradition in France that continued to call for government "par le peuple et pour le peuple." Among the most widely known precedent, however, was Giuseppe Mazzini's 1833 summons to Young Italy "“in the name of the people, for the people, and by the people.” Again in 1851, Mazzini asked: “What does it mean if not a living Equality, in other words, Republic of the People, by the people, and for the people?" By the way an Italian admirer, Repetti, sent Lincoln the complete works of Mazzini during his presidency.
I dug into this in an essay for Sean Conant's new collection, a companion volume to the film on the Gettysburg Address that is about to appear. See my essay: “Widely Noted and Long Remembered: The Gettysburg Address Around the World,” in Sean Conant, ed., _The Gettysburg Address: Perspectives on Lincoln's Greatest Speech_. New York: Oxford University Press, 2015, pp. 274-299. My point was not that Lincoln plagiarized but that he was engaging the language of international republicanism, and that is why the speech would resonate so widely and for so long.
RE: Gettysburg Address - Eva Elisabeth - 11-25-2015 12:06 PM
Highly interesting - thanks for sharing, Don!
RE: Gettysburg Address - RJNorton - 11-25-2015 03:27 PM
Beginning with Christine's post I started thinking that I did not know until about 20-25 years ago that Lincoln may have read/consulted/browsed, etc. previous writings, speeches, etc. before giving the Gettysburg Address. I did not have a single teacher in grade school, high school, or college say anything other than Lincoln gave a very famous speech (with absolutely no mention he may have been inspired by other sources). This was also true of the textbook I used in class. The words and meaning were discussed by both my teachers and the textbook, but not the possibility the President may have been inspired by previous writings, etc.